10 German bombers

[swanker]

7 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

To someone not holding the current generation responsible for the actions of previous generations. This is the whole crux of the problem with the silly song.

It’s a weird way of trying to mock opposition fans for something that has nothing to do with them or football. To use the war in this fashion is in my eyes pretty disrespectful and to feel the need to sing is, to be polite, odd.

Your first post highlighted this (in my opinion) very childish opinion of relating all current Germans to the Nazi party, hence me telling you to grow up. 

I didn’t mention football or singing songs at football matches, I just added my response to a comment someone made about the Germans not mentioning the war. 
I understand why they might not want to talk about the subject. 

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, swanker said:

It’s a good job they do openly discuss what happened. It’s interesting to see what effect nationalism has on people. Even after the war the German people claimed they didn’t know what was going on? Sachsenhausen concentration camp was in Berlin! The Germans must have thought it was some kind of Butlins holiday camp when they saw all those families going in there.

 

 

1 hour ago, swanker said:

Don’t expect they do mention it, seeing that their nation was responsible for the greatest conflict in the history of mankind where millions of innocent men woman and children were slaughtered!

So which is it? They don’t mention it or it’s a good job that they do? 
 

Sachsenhausen isn’t ‘in Berlin’ btw and normal German people wouldn’t have known about the camps at the start and in many cases not until near the end.  By the time they did it would have been nigh on impossible for those who opposed it to do anything about it without severely jeapordising their own lives and families. It wasn’t that simple. 
But anyway, the actions of our forefathers should not have any relevance to how we are perceived 80+years on. As I’ve said before our own countrymen have committed horrendous atrocities over the centuries and we shouldn’t be judged upon that the same as the Second World War has no bearing on today’s Germany and it’s population.  

[Cowshed]

21 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

So that's a lot of words, but the long and short of it is you can't find any evidence of this ban being written anywhere in black & white and you expect us to take your word that some fans have been banned just for singing it and not for other misdemeanours.

Colour me sceptical, bruv.

With regards to your last par, my missus's sister and her husband are in their late 50s. They aren't going to sleep on park benches or beaches.  The fact that you think it's easy for people in low-wage jobs to attend international football matches tells me that you aren't quite as in tune with the C2s and Ds as you make out you are. 

 

I wouldn't call you sceptical .. I will move on.

You can google the song and 2017 Berlin v Germany  .. I am a not a journalist I didn't write the pieces or the latest in the media regarding the topical song. Been going on intermittently and was v the Czechs again. The authorities decided its time to slap a few wrists of the oiks before they upset those in the expensive seats. Protect brand Wembley.

In their fifties there you go. And not prepared to do what others will or having networks of mates who can help out .That is the answer. Thousands I have never have will be spent. For this low wage earner and my peers easy is relative. Sacrifices get you to watching England in Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary etc for sums within my very modest budget. That is the tune ..

[swanker]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

 

So which is it? They don’t mention it or it’s a good job that they do? 
 

Sachsenhausen isn’t ‘in Berlin’ btw and normal German people wouldn’t have known about the camps at the start and in many cases not until near the end.  By the time they did it would have been nigh on impossible for those who opposed it to do anything about it without severely jeapordising their own lives and families. It wasn’t that simple. 
But anyway, the actions of our forefathers should not have any relevance to how we are perceived 80+years on. As I’ve said before our own countrymen have committed horrendous atrocities over the centuries and we shouldn’t be judged upon that the same as the Second World War has no bearing on today’s Germany and it’s population.  

I was giving a response………So the German people don’t mention it but they discuss it? 

Ah, now I understand after all that confusion. 
 

What I don’t understand is, did the German people know what was going on or did national pride get in the way of them doing what was right by all those innocent civilians?

Just so that you don’t misunderstand me. I don’t blame anyone who had nothing to do with what went on during the Second World War. 

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I wouldn't call you sceptical .. I will move on.

You can google the song and 2017 Berlin v Germany  .. I am a not a journalist I didn't write the pieces or the latest in the media regarding the topical song. Been going on intermittently and was v the Czechs again. The authorities decided its time to slap a few wrists of the oiks before they upset those in the expensive seats. Protect brand Wembley.

In their fifties there you go. And not prepared to do what others will or having networks of mates who can help out .That is the answer. Thousands I have never have will be spent. For this low wage earner and my peers easy is relative. Sacrifices get you to watching England in Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary etc for sums within my very modest budget. That is the tune ..

 

Will leave it there over the non-existent "ban", but my in-laws go to World Cups to follow England - Russia, Brazil, South Africa, Japan, Korea. You can't do that on a budget. Had Welsh fans been allowed to go to Amsterdam for their match last night, tickets cost £170+. Combine that with travel, food and beer - even if you sleep in a park, which will get you arrested in Holland - and you have a massive shell-out for a low-paid person and totally beyond the budget of many. 

[lenred]

19 minutes ago, swanker said:

I was giving a response………So the German people don’t mention it but they discuss it? 

Ah, now I understand after all that confusion. 
 

What I don’t understand is, did the German people know what was going on or did national pride get in the way of them doing what was right by all those innocent civilians?

Just so that you don’t misunderstand me. I don’t blame anyone who had nothing to do with what went on during the Second World War. 

Sorry I don’t get you. You said before ‘no wonder they don’t mention it’ and I countered that they do which you then said was a good thing? Anyway, it matters not…… 

Re your question. Suggest reading up about how and why the Nazi Party came to power and how they then took a stranglehold of the country, very often using violence against any form of opposition (or just perceived opposition) right from the very start of their reign (and indeed before).  I’d like to think I’d have the cojones to stand up to the Nazis but in real life I doubt I would have done, based upon what I’ve learnt and read, certainly not in any overt way.   And I expect that was the same for the millions who opposed what was happening. Not doubting that there were also millions who supported them or who were at least agnostic to them either btw as life for many was good under the Nazis, but this misnomer that all Germans supported them is just not true.   

 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Will leave it there over the non-existent "ban", 

As expected. Little google is very hard. Too hard.

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Will leave it there over the non-existent "ban", but my in-laws go to World Cups to follow England - Russia, Brazil, South Africa, Japan, Korea. You can't do that on a budget. Had Welsh fans been allowed to go to Amsterdam for their match last night, tickets cost £170+. Combine that with travel, food and beer - even if you sleep in a park, which will get you arrested in Holland - and you have a massive shell-out for a low-paid person and totally beyond the budget of many. 

You can go to Euro 88, 92, 2000, 2004 Italia 90, France 98 on modest means and sleep in campsites, travel on the train all done.. South Africa on the baz bus and shared taxis staying in hostels. Tougher, time consuming but not expensive v First bus, trains here and a Premier inn for nights and that is no joke. Many still made it. 

You can still go to any number of England qualifiers on modest means which is why so many of them still get thousands of working class lads on those trips to Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia. All on tight modest budgets. The many still make it. You can't ask Poles and Slovaks for £30, 40, 50 a ticket and locals always sell their to England fans .. Same as Moscow tout tickets where cheaper than the FA's, locals were accommodating and made money from fans easily - Always a way if you put the time and effort in.   

 

[AshtonGreat]

Speaking of offensive, I'm amazed the official song got past the regulators

[Rob k]

24 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

As expected. Little google is very hard. Too hard.

You can go to Euro 88, 92, 2000, 2004 Italia 90, France 98 on modest means and sleep in campsites, travel on the train all done.. South Africa on the baz bus and shared taxis staying in hostels. Tougher, time consuming but not expensive v First bus, trains here and a Premier inn for nights and that is no joke. Many still made it. 

You can still go to any number of England qualifiers on modest means which is why so many of them still get thousands of working class lads on those trips to Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia. All on tight modest budgets. The many still make it. You can't ask Poles and Slovaks for £30, 40, 50 a ticket and locals always sell their to England fans .. Same as Moscow tout tickets where cheaper than the FA's, locals were accommodating and made money from fans easily - Always a way if you put the time and effort in.   

 

Budapest in September has cost £150 in flights and about £50 each for 3 nights accommodation. Tickets will be easy enough to get your hands on too

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

As expected. Little google is very hard. Too hard.

 

 

 

Hard for you, mate. You can't stand up the fact of this "ban" you claim is in place.

You make the claim, it's up to you to prove it or people will say you're chatting shit.

[Red-Robbo]

43 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Budapest in September has cost £150 in flights and about £50 each for 3 nights accommodation. Tickets will be easy enough to get your hands on too

 

What do you think Doha next year will be?

Easy to cherry pick the cheaper cities.

[Rob k]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

What do you think Doha next year will be?

Easy to cherry pick the cheaper cities.

Expensive - just pointing out that following England isn’t always expensive.

[Nogbad the Bad]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Hard for you, mate. You can't stand up the fact of this "ban" you claim is in place.

You make the claim, it's up to you to prove it or people will say you're chatting shit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-supporters-travel-club-ban-fa-chant-germany-german-bombers-a7729551.html

[Red-Robbo]

12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-supporters-travel-club-ban-fa-chant-germany-german-bombers-a7729551.html

 

That was four years ago and as has been pointed out by its defenders the song is still widely sung by supporters without any bans taking place.  I'm aware the FA has said they will take action if fans are guilty of "discriminatory behaviour" at Wembley, but it hasn't specifically mentioned this one song or said singing it will lead to a ban. The 2017 incident included other bad behaviour. The recent headlines seem to be tabloids spinning things as part of their agenda to stoke up the culture wars, which, judging by this thread, has worked. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

That was four years ago and as has been pointed out by its defenders the song is still widely sung by supporters without any bans taking place.  I'm aware the FA has said they will take action if fans are guilty of "discriminatory behaviour" at Wembley, but it hasn't specifically mentioned this one song or said singing it will lead to a ban. The 2017 incident included other bad behaviour. The recent headlines seem to be tabloids spinning things as part of their agenda to stoke up the culture wars, which, judging by this thread, has worked. 

No relevance that it was 4 years ago. My point is England fans have been banned for singing this song.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the nature of the other 'bad behaviour' you are aware of which justified a ban, not sure I can locate it in the article.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No relevance that it was 4 years ago. My point is England fans have been banned for singing this song.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the nature of the other 'bad behaviour' you are aware of which justified a ban, not sure I can locate it in the article.

I'm just not sure that's all that was involved. However even if they all behaved liked choirboys in that bar, there is a bit of a difference singing a song celebrating German deaths in a Berlin pub to singing it at a fixture in the UK.

So, as I asked, if the singing of it has been banned (which it doesn't say it has in that article) yet it is part of "England football culture", why have no other people been banned in the last 4 years? 

Ultimately, it's still a shit song, which makes very little sense. The RAF aren't "from England" but from across the UK and during the Battle of Britain included lots of European, Commonwealth and US pilots.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

I'm just not sure that's all that was involved. 

So, as I asked, if the singing of it has been banned (which it doesn't say it has in that article) yet it is part of "England football culture", why have no other people been banned in the last 4 years? 

 

You're 'not sure' that's all that was involved?

Just now you sought to justify England fans being banned after that game for singing 10 German Bombers (we know that to be the case) by saying 'the 2017 incident included other bad behaviour.'

So you don't know that at all, it seems you just made that bit up?  

That's poor Robbo.

Btw., how do you know no other England fans have been banned for the same reason since 2017?

[BS2 Red]

8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

You're 'not sure' that's all that was involved?

Just now you sought to justify England fans being banned after that game for singing 10 German Bombers (we know that to be the case) by saying 'the 2017 incident included other bad behaviour.'

So you don't know that at all, it seems you just made that bit up?  

That's poor Robbo.

Btw., how do you know no other England fans have been banned for the same reason since 2017?

The article you posted says:

The 1-0 defeat was tarnished by fan behaviour in the away end in Dortmund, where some booed the German national anthem and sung distasteful songs referencing the First and Second World Wars.

That suggests there was more to it than just the singing of "10 German Bombers".

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

Btw., how do you know no other England fans have been banned for the same reason since 2017?

Do you know they have? Are there any recorded incidents of it happening?

Ultimately, if you can't see how singing that song in the faces of Germans in a German bar is provocative and bad behaviour then I give up. It goes beyond banter. It is goading for a fight in those individual circumstances. Fans can be kicked out the supporters travel club for such behaviour and always have been. That isn't the same as saying one specific song is banned. 

You said the 70s was some sort of golden age.  Well, I preferred England fans in the 70s, when they didn't have a contingent singing songs that make them look like idiots. 

[Cowshed]

43 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-supporters-travel-club-ban-fa-chant-germany-german-bombers-a7729551.html

Odd what you can be banned for. That was Dortmund. It also occurred in Berlin the previous year. Its just white noise in many respects. After a day or so it becomes a constant backing track to the trip. 

The atmosphere level at Wembley can't reach the raucous levels of away trips as the particular group responsible can't gather in the same manner at Wembley and the behaviours will not be tolerated. It is an unwanted culture at gentrified Wembley. 

Many will see this gentrification as compete progress, my view is the progress did not have to lose so much. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 minute ago, BS2 Red said:

The article you posted says:

The 1-0 defeat was tarnished by fan behaviour in the away end in Dortmund, where some booed the German national anthem and sung distasteful songs referencing the First and Second World Wars.

That suggests there was more to it than just the singing of "10 German Bombers".

No it doesn't.

It suggests nothing more than singing songs - 'distasteful' is subjective, of course, and it is the Guardian after all - and the fairly traditional booing of the other team's anthem.

Nothing that should lead to a ban - the England fans were banned for singing 10 German Bombers, simple as that, unless evidence of truly 'bad behaviour' is forthcoming. 

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Do you know they have? Are there any recorded incidents of it happening?

Ultimately, if you can't see how singing that song in the faces of Germans in a German bar is provocative and bad behaviour then I give up. It goes beyond banter. It is goading for a fight in those individual circumstances. Fans can be kicked out the supporters travel club for such behaviour and always have been. That isn't the same as saying one specific song is banned. 

You said the 70s was some sort of golden age.  Well, I preferred England fans in the 70s, when they didn't have a contingent singing songs that make them look like idiots. 

OK, so you did make it up for affect.

[Rob k]

7 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

The article you posted says:

The 1-0 defeat was tarnished by fan behaviour in the away end in Dortmund, where some booed the German national anthem and sung distasteful songs referencing the First and Second World Wars.

That suggests there was more to it than just the singing of "10 German Bombers".

I was in that away end and even to this day i don’t remember it ever being as bad as what was made out by the press. It was a great place Dortmund, i didn’t see a hint of trouble which isn’t to say there wasn’t any, if there was i didn’t see it 

[BS2 Red]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

No it doesn't.

It suggests nothing more than singing songs - 'distasteful' is subjective, of course, and it is the Guardian after all - and the fairly traditional booing of the other team's anthem.

Nothing that should lead to a ban - the England fans were banned for singing 10 German Bombers, simple as that, unless evidence of truly 'bad behaviour' is forthcoming. 

 

I didn't comment on whether they should be banned.

It literally says it was more than just singing songs, there was also booing.

So we've gone from you claiming that people were banned just for singing 10 GBs to now people being banned for booing and the singing of several unspecified songs.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

my view is the progress did not have to lose so much. 

 

You've been saying that it's just a silly song, something we started doing only in 1996, and is just "white noise" but that line suggests Wembley won't be the same without it. LOSE SO MUCH.

Really? I dislike gentrified football, but I'm happy to lose songs that make England supporters look like *******. Pick another "silly song". I don't support bans, just wish people would grow up.

[Alan Dicks]

What happened to the green bottles?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Just now, BS2 Red said:

I didn't comment on whether they should be banned.

It literally says it was more than just singing songs, there was also booing.

So we've gone from you claiming that people were banned just for singing 10 GBs to now people being banned for booing and the singing of several unspecified songs.

Oh my God, not booing. Ban them!!

Why not just leave it BS2, you like to comment on everything but you don't seem to have a point to make here and you're certainly not adding anything interesting.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Oh my God, not booing. Ban them!!

Why not just leave it BS2, you like to comment on everything but you don't seem to have a point to make here and you're certainly not adding anything interesting.

 

Where did he say he wanted them banned?

[BS2 Red]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Oh my God, not booing. Ban them!!

Why not just leave it BS2, you like to comment on everything but you don't seem to have a point to make here and you're certainly not adding anything interesting.

I haven't said they should be banned. 

That's a lovely second paragraph, but it's a poor attempt at deflection. You were wrong, there's no need to stoop to personal insults just because you're embarrassed.

[2015]

If I am honest I am totally sick of the culture wars being forced upon us Football Fans.

It's a great divide and conquer tactic. 

I just want to watch the Football I don't want to debate Gay rights, trans rights, racial inequalities and a War that happened nearly a century ago. It's so tedious now