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England v. Germany Matchday Thread


CyderInACan

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27 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

To be honest I think some people need to try something else as a hobby. If you cannot enjoy a win for the football team you claim to "support" against one of it's biggest rivals and all you can do is go on an internet forum and just run the whole lot down as inept, pathetic etc. then why do you put yourself through it and bother?

I would also say that if people haven't worked out yet that Southgate's principles against better sides, like it or hate it, is to stay in the game for an hour or so and then attack the last 20-30 minutes then where have they been for the last 2-3 years? "Interesting" that Grealish came on and turned the game? No, it is the way Southgate plays it. Saka did the running, defensive duties and the discipline.............Grealish comes on and wins the game. Like I say you don't have to agree with it but how could you possibly fail to see that's what he does?

Well let’s hope that we are not 2 down when he decides to bring on by far our most creative player for the last 30 minutes, maybe i’m old fashioned but I believe in starting your better players what’s more do you not think that Sacka, Sanchez, Mount, Foden, Bellingham are good enough to also be very influential in the last 30 minutes?

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1 hour ago, Super said:

I do worry about Phillips tbh. You can't knock his enthusiasm but he can be a bit reckless hope this doesn't cost us.

I have to say though, it shows a massive amount of maturity and discipline from Phillips, and more importantly Rice getting booked so early on to not get carried away and make a rash mistake and get sent off. I feared the worst for Rice after 7 minutes, I thought it would be another Beckham / Rooney moment coming but it didn't deter them.

 

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18 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Huge difference between being constructively critical "I'd have started Grealish", "not a fan of that midfield pairing" etc and the type of posts that called out though "Southgate is clueless" "player x is ******* terrible" etc

The hyperbole is emotion. Opinion. I am not a fan either. England are an exercise in conservative modern coaching. That has to stir emotions, my opinion is its boring (very). Without Grealish floating around and moving into ACM England score neither. England are less boring with Grealish on the pitch = He by being unpredictable, floating created opportunities that didn't exist before.

In an out there world where we jump into a tardis England's performance indicators should not equal no goals conceded and cannot (logically) continue in the same vein. Behaviours are in place that make successes more likely but not this successful. 

 

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1 minute ago, harrys said:

Well let’s hope that we are not 2 down when he decides to bring on by far our most creative player for the last 30 minutes, maybe i’m old fashioned but I believe in starting your better players what’s more do you not think that Sacka, Sanchez, Mount, Foden, Bellingham are good enough to also be very influential in the last 30 minutes?

They’re all good enough but as it stands Southgate will tell you his way is working. France have an even better group of attacking players but if you don’t have some defensive structure in your team look what happens.

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1 minute ago, harrys said:

Well let’s hope that we are not 2 down when he decides to bring on by far our most creative player for the last 30 minutes, maybe i’m old fashioned but I believe in starting your better players what’s more do you not think that Sacka, Sanchez, Mount, Foden, Bellingham are good enough to also be very influential in the last 30 minutes?

Well let's worry about that if it happens, because as of yet it hasn't and I don't think that's luck, it's the game plan.

A team is more than 11 individuals, especially in the modern day. You can't just stick 11 names on a pitch and assume that's the best way to win, we should all know that from the "golden" era. 

You also can't just throw on all your attacking players in a tight game, there was no need to get them all on the pitch. The game was managed almost perfectly bar a horrible pass from Sterling. I'm so glad Muller missed, can you imagnie the abuse Sterling would have received?

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4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The hyperbole is emotion. Opinion. I am not a fan either. England are an exercise in conservative modern coaching. That has to stir emotions, my opinion is its boring (very). Without Grealish floating around and moving into ACM England score neither. England are less boring with Grealish on the pitch = He by being unpredictable, floating created opportunities that didn't exist before.

In an out there world where we jump into a tardis England's performance indicators should not equal no goals conceded and cannot (logically) continue in the same vein. Behaviours are in place that make successes more likely but not this successful. 

 

The hyperbole is bedwetters bedwetting.

Its the same people every time whether City or England, who don't seem to understand that the other team is also trying to win.

A line up not being exactly how you want doesnt make it "awful", "terrible" or the manager "clueless" or "dreadful". Time they got a grip.

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2 minutes ago, harrys said:

Well let’s hope that we are not 2 down when he decides to bring on by far our most creative player for the last 30 minutes, maybe i’m old fashioned but I believe in starting your better players what’s more do you not think that Sacka, Sanchez, Mount, Foden, Bellingham are good enough to also be very influential in the last 30 minutes?

The simple fact is we weren't.

I'd love us to playing more free-flowing attacking football and starting more creative players but there's no getting round the fact that Southgate went into yesterday's game with a plan and that plan worked. Of course, it's possible another plan could have worked too but it also might have failed and then people would be complaining about the manager being too gung-ho and trying to fit all his best players into the team rather than moulding a cohesive unit.

At the same time, I don't necessarily think the fact it worked means these are the tactics we should use against the Ukraine. France paid a price for not putting a team out of sight and Spain and Italy could easily have gone out on the same basis. Ukraine will be more fatigued than we are and seemed to pick up some injuries yesterday and I'd hope our tactics on Saturday will be a higher tempo to try and tire the opposition as quickly as possible and to push for a couple of early goals to force them to change their game. But Southgate might not do that and, if he wins, he earns the right to say he got it right. If he loses, he then opens himself up to questions, but he's got a simple job of getting through the groups and winning knock out matches. As long as he is achieving that, it's hard to claim his tactics are "wrong". I'd agree they're pretty boring for neutrals - and even for many of us as fans at times - but they're also working. 

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20 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

The hyperbole is bedwetters bedwetting.

Its the same people every time whether City or England, who don't seem to understand that the other team is also trying to win.

A line up not being exactly how you want doesnt make it "awful", "terrible" or the manager "clueless" or "dreadful". Time they got a grip.

And going over the top.

Brilliant excellent England managed one shot on goal in open play till the bedwetters Grealish came on ..

Different adjectives depending on perception .. I thought it was a tedious watch .. Then the dog was nearly swung round my head when the second went in .. Its all just emotion. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And going over the top.

Brilliant excellent England managed one shot on goal in open play till the bedwetters Grealish came on ..

Different adjectives depending on perception .. I thought it was a tedious watch .. Then the dog was nearly swung round my head when the second went in .. Its all just emotion. 

 

 

As I’ve posted before . Tournaments are never won by expansive gung ho football. Germany have won four world cups & a few European titles. Never once have they ever played exciting football , neither have the Italians. They get the job done. I couldn’t give a flying **** how we win games. If we win that pot I don’t care. It’s winning that matters 

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3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And going over the top.

Brilliant excellent England managed one shot on goal in open play till the bedwetters Grealish came on ..

Different adjectives depending on perception .. I thought it was a tedious watch .. Then the dog was nearly swung round my head when the second went in .. Its all just emotion. 

 

 

But Grealish starting wouldn't have guaranteed more chances all game for us, against fresh defenders all game.

Especially not without leaving ourselves more open at the back.

Tournament football also usually gets more open as the game goes on.

There is no way to know if Grealish starting would have been better or worse for us, but in the reality of football that happened we beat Germany 2-0 with him as a sub, and looked pretty comfortable in the process.

Stop sulking and try being happy.

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44 minutes ago, harrys said:

Well let’s hope that we are not 2 down when he decides to bring on by far our most creative player for the last 30 minutes, maybe i’m old fashioned but I believe in starting your better players what’s more do you not think that Sacka, Sanchez, Mount, Foden, Bellingham are good enough to also be very influential in the last 30 minutes?

Jesus get a life man.   

How many 90 minutes has Grealish played since February??  He won't last a game so the question is is he more effective early or later ?  Is it better to have pace early on and guile later or the other way round. 

We won 2 0 vs Germany.  Enjoy it.

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13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And going over the top.

Brilliant excellent England managed one shot on goal in open play till the bedwetters Grealish came on ..

Different adjectives depending on perception .. I thought it was a tedious watch .. Then the dog was nearly swung round my head when the second went in .. Its all just emotion. 

 

 

World Cup Semi Final

UEFA Nations League Final

Euro Quarter Finals

Yes its not fully expansive, free flowing, premiership football.  But then we've tried that for years and got picked off time and time again.   Yesterday was almost like watching the Germans being out done by their own tactics. 

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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

But Grealish starting wouldn't have guaranteed more chances all game for us, against fresh defenders all game.

Especially not without leaving ourselves more open at the back.

Tournament football also usually gets more open as the game goes on.

There is no way to know if Grealish starting would have been better or worse for us, but in the reality of football that happened we beat Germany 2-0 with him as a sub, and looked pretty comfortable in the process.

Stop sulking and try being happy.

Totally agree . Plus , having the likes of grealish, Foden, sancho to come on against tiring defenders must be a nightmare . Keep it tight , finish games last 20 . Some people want some kind of footballing utopia , it’ll never happen. Just win games , don’t care how. 

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Just now, steviestevieneville said:

As I’ve posted before . Tournaments are never won by expansive gung ho football. Germany have won four world cups & a few European titles. Never once have they ever played exciting football , neither have the Italians. They get the job done. I couldn’t give a flying **** how we win games. If we win that pot I don’t care. It’s winning that matters 

I would disagree with that. Germany as an opinion have been exciting. More shots more goals and powerhouse football in tournaments. But winning is associated with positive behaviours. The more positive behaviours in place obviously the more likely winning becomes. At present England are an outlier. The performances if repeated will not yield the same number of goals conceded. Improvement has to be made to get the job done. 

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Just now, Cowshed said:

I would disagree with that. Germany as an opinion have been exciting. More shots more goals and powerhouse football in tournaments. But winning is associated with positive behaviours. The more positive behaviours in place obviously the more likely winning becomes. At present England are an outlier. The performances if repeated will not yield the same number of goals conceded. Improvement has to be made to get the job done. 

I’ve mentioned it before & I genuinely mean no disrespect but you way over complicate things. My first memory of tournament football was the 78 World Cup final . 1982 being my favourite tournament ever, why? Because of that wonderful Brazil side that won **** all. You talk stats but what sticks in the mind are winners in the main & Germany have more than had their fair share , but I can never , ever remember them ever having a exciting team . The same as Italy. You seem to want a utopian football world but it’s unrealistic . Unless you’re playing the PlayStation of course. 

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50 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

The simple fact is we weren't.

I'd love us to playing more free-flowing attacking football and starting more creative players but there's no getting round the fact that Southgate went into yesterday's game with a plan and that plan worked. Of course, it's possible another plan could have worked too but it also might have failed and then people would be complaining about the manager being too gung-ho and trying to fit all his best players into the team rather than moulding a cohesive unit.

At the same time, I don't necessarily think the fact it worked means these are the tactics we should use against the Ukraine. France paid a price for not putting a team out of sight and Spain and Italy could easily have gone out on the same basis. Ukraine will be more fatigued than we are and seemed to pick up some injuries yesterday and I'd hope our tactics on Saturday will be a higher tempo to try and tire the opposition as quickly as possible and to push for a couple of early goals to force them to change their game. But Southgate might not do that and, if he wins, he earns the right to say he got it right. If he loses, he then opens himself up to questions, but he's got a simple job of getting through the groups and winning knock out matches. As long as he is achieving that, it's hard to claim his tactics are "wrong". I'd agree they're pretty boring for neutrals - and even for many of us as fans at times - but they're also working. 

The Ukraine?

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9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I would disagree with that. Germany as an opinion have been exciting. More shots more goals and powerhouse football in tournaments. But winning is associated with positive behaviours. The more positive behaviours in place obviously the more likely winning becomes. At present England are an outlier. The performances if repeated will not yield the same number of goals conceded. Improvement has to be made to get the job done. 

Greece won the Euros and they were the dullest team ever. 

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16 minutes ago, TomF said:

World Cup Semi Final

UEFA Nations League Final

Euro Quarter Finals

Yes its not fully expansive, free flowing, premiership football.  But then we've tried that for years and got picked off time and time again.   Yesterday was almost like watching the Germans being out done by their own tactics. 

 we got knocked out in the semi final of the nations League.

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21 minutes ago, TomF said:

World Cup Semi Final

UEFA Nations League Final

Euro Quarter Finals

Yes its not fully expansive, free flowing, premiership football.  But then we've tried that for years and got picked off time and time again.   Yesterday was almost like watching the Germans being out done by their own tactics. 

Completely agree although it was a Nations League semi final (to be a pedant), but that makes at least 3 semi finals in a row if we winSaturday. 

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4 minutes ago, TomF said:

World Cup Semi Final

UEFA Nations League Final

Euro Quarter Finals

Yes its not fully expansive, free flowing, premiership football.  But then we've tried that for years and got picked off time and time again.   Yesterday was almost like watching the Germans being out done by their own tactics. 

 

Its very hard to point to what England's have tried for years .. Bobby Robson changed his mind during a tournament and each coach (Taylor!!) after did their own thing. 

It wasn't the Germans. They historically played with box to box central midfielders breaking lines like Mathaus. The Germans have never been as conservative as England were yesterday. 

What England did yesterday was highly unusual. It was taking modern coaching norms of width, depth and dispersal to an extreme where central midfield was ceded to retain shape. Mr Southgate removed the central support to play forward. I hope he puts that central support back. Without it England become even more predictable, massively reliant on defending with very low chance creation.

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22 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

I’ve mentioned it before & I genuinely mean no disrespect but you way over complicate things. My first memory of tournament football was the 78 World Cup final . 1982 being my favourite tournament ever, why? Because of that wonderful Brazil side that won **** all. You talk stats but what sticks in the mind are winners in the main & Germany have more than had their fair share , but I can never , ever remember them ever having a exciting team . The same as Italy. You seem to want a utopian football world but it’s unrealistic . Unless you’re playing the PlayStation of course. 

I have never played station my life.  

Utopian? Err no. Some risk. Ability to break lines. A degree of complexity on the ball. Without an added dimension (Grealish) in the final third England were impotent away from dead balls.

Its not complicated. Football is simple. Mr Southgates football is very simple. It follows very simple patterns and principles. Mr Southgate yesterday played with a seven and three. Seven defenders and three attackers. It only changed when the complexity of Grealish was added and moving into the ten space into the in between. That is a simple improvement.

Trippier as expected was an improvement from dead balls. Simple improvement.  

Its unrealistic to expect England to continue to not concede playing as they are and win with such consistent low chance creation. That is utopian. 

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Blimey. This thread.... Imagine we'd lost...

One guys hot take was that if Germany has scored and we hadn't we would have lost.. and several posters can't seem to accept that Germany turned up to play as well... and are decent ... Andhave literally world class players....so we matched them up and won the right later in the game to be more expansive.

 

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5 minutes ago, Will Rollason said:

Blimey. This thread.... Imagine we'd lost...

One guys hot take was that if Germany has scored and we hadn't we would have lost.. And.l.several posters can't accept that Germany turned up as well... and are decent ... have literally world class players....so we matched them up and won the right later in the game to be more expansive.

 

There are one or two on here who genuinely rate their coaching knowledge and ability as superior or at least equal to Southgate by the looks of it.

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