England v. Germany Matchday Thread

[BS2 Red]

3 minutes ago, Super said:

Crikey is that not him?!

The bloke in the photo looks enough like him to fool anyone, but being carried on the shoulders of England fans and swigging beer in the street probably rules out it being Klopp. Although you never know.

[BS2 Red]

I've changed my mind, it's definitely Klopp.

[BrizzleRed]

25 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Historically its happened with our current team once? Maybe twice.

A very insignificant amount of times.

Current team yes, but we’ve proved history can weigh heavily on teams, as Germany have been our bogey team for over half a century, so mindset must be a factor.

Superb result yesterday though and maybe we can look at the Germans in a different light now, after we got that monkey off our back.

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

No one said you cant have an opinion.

What people are saying is wording that opinion in an over the top, extreme negatively way, that often includes abuse to the players or managers, isn't warranted.

None of that is aimed specifically at you, but if it applies, then take it on board.

i think i’ll stick to the ‘take the piss out of Rovers’ posts, far more fun and far fewer sensitive posters

[exAtyeoMax]

44 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

I've changed my mind, it's definitely Klopp.

I saw the video yesterday, thought he's definitely too small to be Klopp.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Generally agree, but they smashed Brazil 7-1 in their own back yard. I'd call that exciting?

A one off game & complete capitulation by Brazil. One game in how many tournament matches . It was a freak result 

[pillred]

5 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Slip of the keyboard. Obviously doesn't really have a "the". 

Don't worry a lot of people seem to do it, apparently it really infuriates Ukrainians. 

[CyderInACan]

5 hours ago, pillred said:

The Ukraine?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

[Coppello]

 

 

[Gazred]

5 minutes ago, Coppello said:

 

 

Haha a couple of beers got launched prematurely there.

[Leveller]

47 minutes ago, pillred said:

Don't worry a lot of people seem to do it, apparently it really infuriates Ukrainians. 

It used to be the normal way of referring to it, when it was part of the USSR.

Similarly we once talked about

the Gambia

the Sudan

the Argentine

the Lebanon.

The common point is it seems to date back to when they were regions, not fully fledged countries. Similarly, we can still refer to eg “the Crimea”, “the Antarctic”.

[Maltshoveller]

2 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Current team yes, but we’ve proved history can weigh heavily on teams, as Germany have been our bogey team for over half a century, so mindset must be a factor.

Superb result yesterday though and maybe we can look at the Germans in a different light now, after we got that monkey off our back.

I have never seen Germany as our bogey team

I see a bogey team as a team you are better than, but can never seem to beat them

Germany since about 1970 have just been a lot better than us

 

[2015]

Anyone see the images of James McClean with the Germany top on?

And he wonders why he gets so much stick... Brings it on himself

[Mr Popodopolous]

Still work to do performance wise but result wise couldn't be better. That miss by Mueller from the backpass was a real heart in mouth moment- after Sterling's long spell without an England goal, this is his 2nd in 4 games which is good- and Kane finally up and running.

I'd still like to see more expansiveness, but so far so good...

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

As I’ve posted before . Tournaments are never won by expansive gung ho football. Germany have won four world cups & a few European titles. Never once have they ever played exciting football , neither have the Italians. They get the job done. I couldn’t give a flying **** how we win games. If we win that pot I don’t care. It’s winning that matters 

Debatable, they were pretty attack minded in the 2014 WC which they won, also see unsuccessful but nonetheless good play in WC 2010 in some respects, Euro 2012 certainly. Strong in possession, good chance creation- they were exciting but quite counterattacking in 2010 so it ticks some but not necessarily all of the boxes.

They were dominant anyway in the bulk of their games across 2 tournaments- 2012 and 2014.

Italy were strong in possession in 2012 and fairly positive albeit runners up and Lippi isn't a negative manager- they won WC 2006 with attacking full backs and a fairly positive approach- Zambrotta in particular on the attacking fullback point.

You mention Italy and Germany more widely...Italy v Germany in the semi final that year was anything but dull, fantastic game perhaps a bit of a classic- negative old Italy stuck 4 strikers on going for broke, probably didn't want to face Germany in Germany in a penalty shoot out.

[chipdawg]

I can't believe how many people are complaining about that game. No, England are not the most exciting team to grace major tournament but that is simply a function of the balance of the squad. Our exciting game breaking players all play in the final third, we simply can't play them all. Grealish is excellent and I think Southgate needs to find a role for him against Ukraine (probably at the expense of Saka, which is harsh on him) but acting like he's the saviour of English football is just doing what we always do; putting a great player on a pedestal then knocking him off when he doesn't quite meet our lofty expectations.

Just enjoy us beating Germany

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just thinking, something like...

I dunno- maybe this is for future further development but...

                   Pickford

Walker Maguire Stones Shaw

   Foden Phillips/Rice Grealish

     Sancho Kane Sterling

Then there are players such as TAA (when fit again), Chilwell (post Covid), Mount (post Covid), Bellingham- to name a few. Just one of Phillips or Rice, could make for some fairly exciting football.

[Red-Robbo]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Still work to do performance wise but result wise couldn't be better. That miss by Mueller from the backpass was a real heart in mouth moment- after Sterling's long spell without an England goal, this is his 2nd in 4 games which is good- and Kane finally up and running.

I'd still like to see more expansiveness, but so far so good...

 Third, Mr Pop. 

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

Grealish is excellent and I think Southgate needs to find a role for him against Ukraine (probably at the expense of Saka, which is harsh on him)

I think we will see the squad used against Ukraine. He will likely keep the spine consistent, but I could see Sancho, Mings, Chilwell, Mount, maybe even DCL, all being used at some point. Ukraine are good, they are in the QF on merit, they should not be underestimated. However, at the same time I think that if we are going to go deep we need to rest a few players at some point, and I think the QF is the only feasible opportunity remaining to do so.

I'd not see it as harsh on Saka if he doesn't start on Saturday. I think it would be all about rotating and giving him some rest after starting the last two matches.

[Davefevs]

Simple but effective.

 

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

I have never seen Germany as our bogey team

I see a bogey team as a team you are better than, but can never seem to beat them

Germany since about 1970 have just been a lot better than us

 

Nor are we their main rivals. That is Italy - the 2 neighbours are after all the European nations with the most World Cups. Historically we have been no threat to their respective records.

[JamesBCFC]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Nor are we their main rivals. That is Italy - the 2 neighbours are after all the European nations with the most World Cups. Historically we have been no threat to their respective records.

Thought their main rivals were Netherlands.

Although depends what you're defining as the "main rivals"

In terms of competitive achievements Italy, sure, but in terms of fan feeling I think it goes to Netherlands.

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Thought their main rivals were Netherlands.

Although depends what you're defining as the "main rivals"

In terms of competitive achievements Italy, sure, but in terms of fan feeling I think it goes to Netherlands.

Rivals certainky, though more from the Netherlands point of view I think, for obvious historical reasons. So there is mutual hostility between the fans.

The Netherlands still resent losing the 1974 World Cup final also! 

But in terms of competition for trophies it's Italy. Apparently Italians say that Germans love them but don't respect them while Germans say Italians respect them but don't love them.

[BrizzleRed]

2 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

I have never seen Germany as our bogey team

I see a bogey team as a team you are better than, but can never seem to beat them

Germany since about 1970 have just been a lot better than us

 

Tbh, I’ve always looked at a bogey team as one you just never get a result against, regardless of who is the superior side at any given fime.  

Totally agree with what you’re saying with Germany though.  I reckon we maybe had the edge in 1970, until we cocked up by subbing Bobby Charlton and chucking the game, but they’ve definitely been superior since then.

All the same, there are plenty of examples of teams beating a superior team, but it just hasn’t happened with us against Germany.

 

[chipdawg]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think we will see the squad used against Ukraine. He will likely keep the spine consistent, but I could see Sancho, Mings, Chilwell, Mount, maybe even DCL, all being used at some point. Ukraine are good, they are in the QF on merit, they should not be underestimated. However, at the same time I think that if we are going to go deep we need to rest a few players at some point, and I think the QF is the only feasible opportunity remaining to do so.

I'd not see it as harsh on Saka if he doesn't start on Saturday. I think it would be all about rotating and giving him some rest after starting the last two matches.

I don't think Southgate will make too many changes. I think if Sancho especially was going to play a role, he'd have got him off the bench on the group stages. I can see him playing Grealish and perhaps Mount coming in for Philips, but the back three and the wing backs worked terrifically well. People decry the 343 as "negative" but it isn't inherently so; Belgium and France play a similar formation and we wouldn't say they are defensive teams (perhaps to France's detriment). I would like to see us attack Ukraine more early in the game, but I think it'll be more about tweaking personnel than making significant changes

[JamesBCFC]

30 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Rivals certainky, though more from the Netherlands point of view I think, for obvious historical reasons. So there is mutual hostility between the fans.

The Netherlands still resent losing the 1974 World Cup final also! 

But in terms of competition for trophies it's Italy. Apparently Italians say that Germans love them but don't respect them while Germans say Italians respect them but don't love them.

I've heard relationships described like that.

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

I don't think Southgate will make too many changes. I think if Sancho especially was going to play a role, he'd have got him off the bench on the group stages. I can see him playing Grealish and perhaps Mount coming in for Philips, but the back three and the wing backs worked terrifically well. People decry the 343 as "negative" but it isn't inherently so; Belgium and France play a similar formation and we wouldn't say they are defensive teams (perhaps to France's detriment). I would like to see us attack Ukraine more early in the game, but I think it'll be more about tweaking personnel than making significant changes

I didn't see it as 'negative' yesterday. Controlling, attempting to even be constricting maybe, and that at the expense of being freely flowing and attacking, but it's not 'negative'.

The "343" is being used as a very flexible formation that can adapt quickly to changing game states. It gets written down as a 343 but realistically yesterday it played as a 523 in defence, and a 352 in possession. Average positions of the starting XI against Germany were as follows:

But that dynamism requires energy.

That's why I think we might see some changes to the starting XI on Saturday. Especially as you don't want to rest key players for the pressure game that is the Semi, and the Final is absolutely when you put your best XI on from the start. Saturday is the only feasible option if he is going to rest anyone.

Agree I would like to see us attack early, but I think it will be more of the same, more of what we've seen in every game so far. I expect England to be patient, and attempt to control the early game, probing for set pieces and mistakes, before trying to exploit tired Ukrainian legs in the latter second half. That mostly means controlling themselves. It makes it 'dull' to watch, and of course quality opposition teams will still create chances, but it has proven effective so far. 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just thinking, something like...

I dunno- maybe this is for future further development but...

                   Pickford

Walker Maguire Stones Shaw

   Foden Phillips/Rice Grealish

     Sancho Kane Sterling

Then there are players such as TAA (when fit again), Chilwell (post Covid), Mount (post Covid), Bellingham- to name a few. Just one of Phillips or Rice, could make for some fairly exciting football.

Grealish further forward preferably. 

[Harry]

I think some people are jumping too much on others stating their opinion that England play negatively. 
It’s a fact that we do. But that’s ok. As long as it works. 
It’s no problem to have the opinion that we are set up with our attacking wings having been clipped. It’s true. But that’s ok. I’m happy with that, as long as it gets the results. 

It’s a bit LJ-esque really. People say “he’s got the players, but we play so defensively”, whilst we were knocking out clean sheets and 3 points all over the place. Only when the results went against us does ‘everyone’ wake up to it. Some people (myself included) were calling out performances over results a long time before it started going wrong. Because ultimately, performances will end up determining your results. 
 

I agree with Cowshed in a lot of what he says. We are set up to not lose. Yes it’s negative. Yes it stifles any attacking flair. It’s banking on 3 forward players to create something themselves. He’s correct that this changed after Grealish arrived. Even though it was only 2 times, but his freedom of movement drew the opposition out of shape (hence Shaw getting an overlap for the 1st, possibly the only time in the game that we created the overload out wide). 
So that is all correct. 
 

But just because it’s true, it’s doesn’t mean that it’s a negative, slagging off, unfair and uncalled for opinion to say so. 
 

I was chuffed to bits that it worked as it did last night. But let’s not kid ourselves that for the most part we were in a ‘let’s not lose this’ set up. Which is fine. 
 

My main issue with the set up last night in particular was that we were not able to pick up the their AM’s. 
Neither Kroos or Goretka played as a DM, which meant they mostly occupied Rice & Phillips. This allowed Muller and Havertz to drop in behind our DM’s and they often had plenty of space when they did so. It was a worry for me, but we kinda got away with it, mainly because the back 3 defended excellently. 
It’s not negative to say this. I enjoyed the game - it was a real tactical chess match rather than end to end entertainment. And that’s fine. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Grealish further forward preferably. 

I have a preference for a CM 3, believe Grealish a more natural fit in that position than say Mount, though he is flexible so can move forward and back a bit, perhaps can pull wider in phases.

Reconfigured, perhaps:

             Pickford

Walker Stones Maguire Shaw

         Phillips/Rice

Sancho Foden Grealish Sterling

             Kane

4-1-4-1 in some phases, that can drop into a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 with relative ease out of possession.