England v. Germany Matchday Thread

[Dolman_Stand]

2 hours ago, Super said:

Main thing now is we dont underestimate Ukraine who have some decent players. 

Their best player is probably their manager still, I understand that any opponent should be respected but this really should be a comfortable win

[AshtonGreat]

8 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Been some absolutely glorious matches in this tournament not least the last four. Once that 2nd goal went in for England though this because easily the most enjoyable for me probably since we thrashed the Dutch in 96. 

McGuire and Pickford were immense. But all the players, in the end, contributed to the win; Shaw i thought was ok until he fed that ball through for Sterling. Many incidences where players were a little out of the game but in the end did their part; the collective team were magnificent. The defence solid as a rock yet again. 

And I think England will enjoy more playing Ukraine than Sweden. Both will be open and expansive.

Generally very good, although Muller had acres of space to score that equaliser

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don’t think it means that necessarily, just shows that people will disagree about tactics and how they see the game.

All irrelevant now really, but had Werner/Muller scored and we’d lost those that criticised the formation before kick off would’ve been vindicated. Such fine margins at that level.

I'm actually still in shock that Muller missed, Come to expect Werner to miss his given his season at Chelsea.

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Son of Fredive noticed you use the “confused” emoji on a lot of my posts.  Happy to explain what various charts mean if you like?

Or perhaps the “confused” emoji looks a bit like the “sad” emoji, and you think the data stuff is a all a bit sad.  If so, that’s fine by me.

Let me know….ta.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Super said:

I'm actually still in shock that Muller missed, Come to expect Werner to miss his given his season at Chelsea.

Yeah, very surprised he didn’t go to the right with that shot. 

[AshtonGreat]

54 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Sven was a poor England manager. Had an exceptional group of players but they weren't up to it when we got to the business end of tournaments.  This current lot are a better team but with less talented players.

I think the difference is professionalism, attitude and a general lack of ego. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for that

[Sturny]

I was critical of Southgate and the lineup before the game, I still cannot believe people would let that get in the way of the happiness over last night's result. I'm buzzing! 

[steviestevieneville]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don’t think it means that necessarily, just shows that people will disagree about tactics and how they see the game.

All irrelevant now really, but had Werner/Muller scored and we’d lost those that criticised the formation before kick off would’ve been vindicated. Such fine margins at that level.

Thing is though & I was critical before the Croatia game , we’re too defensive, but. Apart from Brazil 1970 no team has won a tournament by being expansive . No one has ever questioned the German or Italian set up in the past & we expect them to do their thing, be efficient , win football matches . I think they have 7 or 8 world cups between them but have never got bums off seats with entertaining football because it doesn’t win trophy’s . I’m more than happy to bore our way to lift the pot .

[Davefevs]

@Son of Fredthats that sorted then.

[bcfcredandwhite]

England are shocking. 

If Germany had scored more than us then we would have lost the game - and we would have been out of the tournament. 

Southgate OUT.........

[Coppello]

15 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I think the difference is professionalism, attitude and a general lack of ego. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for that

Agreed. Togetherness is also massive in tournaments when they're spending the best part of six weeks locked down in a hotel together. Listening to interviews with former England players, it sounded like playing for the national side was not an enjoyable experience, they were sat in the hotel with little to do, having to follow some ridiculous rules whilst being under intense scrutiny from the media. It's clear all of the players are loving each game and feel a bit like England fans who have been fortunate enough to represent the national side. I think having a manager who knows the pressure of playing in a tournament for England counts for a lot. 

[Red-Robbo]

14 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Thing is though & I was critical before the Croatia game , we’re too defensive, but. Apart from Brazil 1970 no team has won a tournament by being expansive . No one has ever questioned the German or Italian set up in the past & we expect them to do their thing, be efficient , win football matches . I think they have 7 or 8 world cups between them but have never got bums off seats with entertaining football because it doesn’t win trophy’s . I’m more than happy to bore our way to lift the pot .

 

Dunno about that. The Italians have traditionally played quite rapid football based on quick interchanges of passes and running, and their team this year does as well, albeit not as well as the classic Azzurri sides of the past.  Argentina as well. 

With England, our defensiveness seems to stem from a lack of awareness and courage. It was staggering the number of times we were in their half but ended up passing back the ball back to Pickford or the centre backs despite their being unmarked players available.

[Tinmans Love Child]

12 hours ago, Redpool said:

take a good hard look?

Why? We were poor tonight and it was no "masterclass" by Southgate. Quite simply, Germany didn't show up. If they did, that games over by half time. Again, Southgate got his tactics wrong with an entire defensive setup. Quite interesting that when he brings on Grealish, the game opens up and his involvement leads to our two goals. 

Yes, Kane scored. But apart from that. What else did he contribute? Diddly squat

Two good goals scored. But that does not mask another poor and tactically inept performance.

Southgate needs to grow a pair and drop either Rice or Phillips (presumably Phillips) and put in a creative player such as Foden or Grealish. He cannot continue with such a negative and boring setup which will eventually catch us out. 

Serious question, are you on the wind up?

You suggest that if Germany had turned up to the game then they would have won it by half time? Really?  Are we talking about the same Germany who lost to France and drew with Hungary, conceding goals along the way, and certainly not the force they were?  I saw no evidence prior to this game that England had much to worry about from Germany, especially as our defence has been very good in every game, and I was genuinely confident.

we won the game playing defensively, so Southgate got his tactics 100% correct if his objective was to keep it tight and win the game.  If his objective was to win 5 - 4 playing Keegan football then I could agree, but with this England team it was never an option IMO.

Apart from the Sterling dodgy pass, from which Germany nearly and should have scored, I really can’t see how this was a poor and inept performance by England.  We created chances, kept it tight, scored two goals.  Yes Scotland game wasn’t great, but Scotland played well I thought. 

I do agree that Kane has not been at the races, but his goal keeps him in the team I think.  With confidence up I can see the same starting 11 playing even better on Saturday.

[Numero Uno]

16 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Thing is though & I was critical before the Croatia game , we’re too defensive, but. Apart from Brazil 1970 no team has won a tournament by being expansive . No one has ever questioned the German or Italian set up in the past & we expect them to do their thing, be efficient , win football matches . I think they have 7 or 8 world cups between them but have never got bums off seats with entertaining football because it doesn’t win trophy’s . I’m more than happy to bore our way to lift the pot .

You just knew, simply from past experience of so many tournaments, that when many commentators, fans and pundits were waxing lyrical over teams like The Netherlands because they played great football against a couple of mediocre sides and using it as a stick to beat England with at the same time they were going to be handed their ass on a plate. People also banging on about the Group of Death, well they're all in Marbella now on the beach watching the rest of the tournament. How many tournaments do people need to watch before the message hits home? It's not how you start a tournament it's how you finish the ******.

We are left with Spain, Czech Republic, Denmark, England, Ukraine, Switzerland, Belgium and Italy which you could have retired on if you had the balls to back that lot as a last 8. After two group matches played only Belgium and Italy played anywhere near expectations and in the last round both looked ordinary tbf. This tournament is one of the most wide open I can remember seeing.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Serious question, are you on the wind up?

You suggest that if Germany had turned up to the game then they would have won it by half time? Really?  Are we talking about the same Germany who lost to France and drew with Hungary, conceding goals along the way, and certainly not the force they were?  I saw no evidence prior to this game that England had much to worry about from Germany, especially as our defence has been very good in every game, and I was genuinely confident.

we won the game playing defensively, so Southgate got his tactics 100% correct if his objective was to keep it tight and win the game.  If his objective was to win 5 - 4 playing Keegan football then I could agree, but with this England team it was never an option IMO.

Apart from the Sterling dodgy pass, from which Germany nearly and should have scored, I really can’t see how this was a poor and inept performance by England.  We created chances, kept it tight, scored two goals.  Yes Scotland game wasn’t great, but Scotland played well I thought. 

I do agree that Kane has not been at the races, but his goal keeps him in the team I think.  With confidence up I can see the same starting 11 playing even better on Saturday.

To be honest I think some people need to try something else as a hobby. If you cannot enjoy a win for the football team you claim to "support" against one of it's biggest rivals and all you can do is go on an internet forum and just run the whole lot down as inept, pathetic etc. then why do you put yourself through it and bother?

I would also say that if people haven't worked out yet that Southgate's principles against better sides, like it or hate it, is to stay in the game for an hour or so and then attack the last 20-30 minutes then where have they been for the last 2-3 years? "Interesting" that Grealish came on and turned the game? No, it is the way Southgate plays it. Saka did the running, defensive duties and the discipline.............Grealish comes on and wins the game. Like I say you don't have to agree with it but how could you possibly fail to see that's what he does?

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Dunno about that. The Italians have traditionally played quite rapid football based on quick interchanges of passes and running, and their team this year does as well, albeit not as well as the classic Azzurri sides of the past.  Argentina as well. 

With England, our defensiveness seems to stem from a lack of awareness and courage. It was staggering the number of times we were in their half but ended up passing back the ball back to Pickford or the centre backs despite their being unmarked players available.

The shape of that Southgates team means it has to go backwards it has no CM v CDM's to play into. Attacking structure was sacrificed for defensive structure. Its playing to principles. In possession the team had width and depth, the Germans screened, its chess like and cautious. Awareness is keeping the ball and constantly resetting v risk. 

[IAmNick]

I'm really not a fan of people going back to try and call people out for their pre-match posts personally. We all get stuff wrong, and as long as it's not abusive I like reading everyone's opinion(s) on the team and stuff.

Would be a shame if people felt they couldn't in case they got called out 90m later on what is basically a coin flip for most of us armchair experts - especially when quite often the people doing it haven't posted their prediction!

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Dunno about that. The Italians have traditionally played quite rapid football based on quick interchanges of passes and running, and their team this year does as well, albeit not as well as the classic Azzurri sides of the past.  Argentina as well. 

With England, our defensiveness seems to stem from a lack of awareness and courage. It was staggering the number of times we were in their half but ended up passing back the ball back to Pickford or the centre backs despite their being unmarked players available.

The shape of that Southgates team means it has to go backwards it has no CM v CDM's to play into. Attacking structure was sacrificed for defensive structure. Its a highly coached team playing to principles. In possession the team had width and depth, the Germans screened, its chess. Awareness is keeping the ball and constantly resetting v risk.   

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The shape of that Southgates team means it has to go backwards it has no CM v CDM's to play into. Attacking structure was sacrificed for defensive structure. Its playing to principles. In possession the team had width and depth, the Germans screened, its chess like and cautious. Awareness is keeping the ball and constantly resetting v risk. 

 

Yep, I realise that it is down to the structure imposed, but it does make us sacrifice attacking chances for long periods of sterile possession in our own half.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The shape of that Southgates team means it has to go backwards it has no CM v CDM's to play into. Attacking structure was sacrificed for defensive structure. Its playing to principles. In possession the team had width and depth, the Germans screened, its chess like and cautious. Awareness is keeping the ball and constantly resetting v risk. 

It is principle and yet you look at England's first goal and it was as good as anything you will see from any top side in the world. Great pass in to Sterling from Walker that started the problems for Germany and then some nice movement and passing to create a simple chance. That was a top, top goal.

[JamesBCFC]

3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I'm really not a fan of people going back to try and call people out for their pre-match posts personally. We all get stuff wrong, and as long as it's not abusive I like reading everyone's opinion(s) on the team and stuff.

Would be a shame if people felt they couldn't in case they got called out 90m later on what is basically a coin flip for most of us armchair experts - especially when quite often the people doing it haven't posted their prediction!

Huge difference between being constructively critical "I'd have started Grealish", "not a fan of that midfield pairing" etc and the type of posts that called out though "Southgate is clueless" "player x is ******* terrible" etc

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I'm really not a fan of people going back to try and call people out for their pre-match posts personally. We all get stuff wrong, and as long as it's not abusive I like reading everyone's opinion(s) on the team and stuff.

Would be a shame if people felt they couldn't in case they got called out 90m later on what is basically a coin flip for most of us armchair experts - especially when quite often the people doing it haven't posted their prediction!

It's not often "opinion" though is it? It's more often than not just abuse or whining negativity that gets on peoples nerves from the same minority of posters who don't enjoy watching England or watching City yet they seem to continually put themselves through it for some strange reason. One minute Kane is "******* pathetic" (what a well thought out, constructive opinion that is), the next "he's up and running in this tournament now". Yes, you can ignore it or ignore them but if one or two people get frustrated with it and feel the need to call it out I don't see anything wrong with that tbh.

[Northern Red]

5 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Huge difference between being constructively critical "I'd have started Grealish", "not a fan of that midfield pairing" etc and the type of posts that called out though "Southgate is clueless" "player x is ******* terrible" etc

Yep. That and not having the good grace to hold your hands up and admit you called it wrong, and in some cases doubling down on it.

[Sturny]

Sterling and Pickford are differnet players for England. Sterling 15 goals in 20 appearances now. 

[JamesBCFC]

Just now, Sturny said:

Sterling and Pickford are differnet players for England. Sterling 15 goals in 20 appearances now. 

Pickford not scored yet though, what a useless ****!

[Numero Uno]

Just now, JamesBCFC said:

Pickford not scored yet though, what a useless ****!

His penalty beat the Swiss in the Nations League shoot out!!

[IAmNick]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It's not often "opinion" though is it? It's more often than not just abuse or whining negativity that gets on peoples nerves from the same minority of posters who don't enjoy watching England or watching City yet they seem to continually put themselves through it for some strange reason. One minute Kane is "******* pathetic" (what a well thought out, constructive opinion that is), the next "he's up and running in this tournament now". Yes, you can ignore it or ignore them but if one or two people get frustrated with it and feel the need to call it out I don't see anything wrong with that tbh.

Yeah I get your point, but for me it's more like being at the ground where one minute we have our heads in our hands saying "How the **** did he miss that??" to each other, then five minutes later we're singing that same players name.

As long as it doesn't cross the line into actual directed abuse it doesn't bother me personally... I like it as it gives a bit of an ebb and flow to the thread reflecting what's going on in the game.

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

His penalty beat the Swiss in the Nations League shoot out!!

D'oh!

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Sturny said:

Sterling and Pickford are differnet players for England. Sterling 15 goals in 20 appearances now. 

Pickford was a beast yesterday. Literally gave all the ammunition you could ever need to those who think you have to be a loon to play in goal though!!

[steviestevieneville]

24 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You just knew, simply from past experience of so many tournaments, that when many commentators, fans and pundits were waxing lyrical over teams like The Netherlands because they played great football against a couple of mediocre sides and using it as a stick to beat England with at the same time they were going to be handed their ass on a plate. People also banging on about the Group of Death, well they're all in Marbella now on the beach watching the rest of the tournament. How many tournaments do people need to watch before the message hits home? It's not how you start a tournament it's how you finish the ******.

We are left with Spain, Czech Republic, Denmark, England, Ukraine, Switzerland, Belgium and Italy which you could have retired on if you had the balls to back that lot as a last 8. After two group matches played only Belgium and Italy played anywhere near expectations and in the last round both looked ordinary tbf. This tournament is one of the most wide open I can remember seeing.

This is the thing . It semis like we’ve finally learnt a lesson. Nobody wins with expansive football. Some of the comments on social media “ get them all in the side “ “ hung ho “ football . It doesn’t work . Keep it tight , stay in the game . Then we got some serious talent off the bench against tiring defences.