Jump to content
IGNORED

Creativity


RedRoss

Recommended Posts

I know we are looking to add a striker to the mix and we've added to the spine but hopefully we are also looking at someone who can create and link the defensive minded midfielders we seem to have an abundance of to the forwards.

I can't see us relying on Palmer to do that job regularly even though he does have the ability but hasn't shown it consistently.

Is this something others think we should be addressing based on last season?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The club talked about getting five players in and four - counting Baker - have arrived. So I think we are only getting one more player. I can’t remember if that fifth player was described as a striker or a forward but I think, given Wells and Martin can play as out and out forwards, a number 10 (who won’t actually wear a number 10 as King is wearing that) might be more crucial than a number 9 (which is now Martin, in shirt number terms, but also Wells).

At the same time, I think creatively and chance creation happens in different ways. For me, it is less about finding an incredible playmaker - as they are few and far between at Championship level - but about how we can get the midfielders, wingers and full backs further up the pitch so the forwards are not isolated.

If Atkinson, Baker and Kalas can give us solidity in defence and Williams and James help us control the midfield, we will create more chances, creative player or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

The club talked about getting five players in and four - counting Baker - have arrived. So I think we are only getting one more player. I can’t remember if that fifth player was described as a striker or a forward but I think, given Wells and Martin can play as out and out forwards, a number 10 (who won’t actually wear a number 10 as King is wearing that) might be more crucial than a number 9 (which is now Martin, in shirt number terms, but also Wells).

At the same time, I think creatively and chance creation happens in different ways. For me, it is less about finding an incredible playmaker - as they are few and far between at Championship level - but about how we can get the midfielders, wingers and full backs further up the pitch so the forwards are not isolated.

If Atkinson, Baker and Kalas can give us solidity in defence and Williams and James help us control the midfield, we will create more chances, creative player or not.

Completely agree but that's another issue I can't see Simpson or Vyner being able to push forward. I can see that in Dasilva and Pring on the other side doing that job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Completely agree but that's another issue I can't see Simpson or Vyner being able to push forward. I can see that in Dasilva and Pring on the other side doing that job.

That's a good point and, given Pearson really didn't fancy Hunt, I wonder if there is a deliberate tactical choice to have a defensive minded full back on the right and an attack minded full back on the left. 

I think Vyner's interesting as he's not going to charge off overlapping on the right but he might well step into midfield when we attack to allow a midfielder to push on instead. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

The club talked about getting five players in and four - counting Baker - have arrived. So I think we are only getting one more player. I can’t remember if that fifth player was described as a striker or a forward but I think, given Wells and Martin can play as out and out forwards, a number 10 (who won’t actually wear a number 10 as King is wearing that) might be more crucial than a number 9 (which is now Martin, in shirt number terms, but also Wells).

At the same time, I think creatively and chance creation happens in different ways. For me, it is less about finding an incredible playmaker - as they are few and far between at Championship level - but about how we can get the midfielders, wingers and full backs further up the pitch so the forwards are not isolated.

If Atkinson, Baker and Kalas can give us solidity in defence and Williams and James help us control the midfield, we will create more chances, creative player or not.

NP - I want someone who can put the ball in the back of the net

Totally agree that creativity doesn’t mean you need creative players.  You can create without flair players, by good patterns coupled with good passing and movement.  It’s about cohesion.

1 hour ago, RedRoss said:

Completely agree but that's another issue I can't see Simpson or Vyner being able to push forward. I can see that in Dasilva and Pring on the other side doing that job.

I think Simpson still showed a willingness v Cov and Forest that he is happy to get forward and support the attack.  I’ve no doubt Vyner will offer the same.  I genuinely do not see either as “sit at home right-backs”.  Vyner has showed from his minutes in midfield he is very comfortable on the ball.  Against Forest away (20/21) when he came in at RB following the Covid break, I thought he gave us a really good outlet down the right.  Slightly spoiled by final ball, which is an area he will need to work on (and JD too).  Plus he has a decent long throw, which when he plays central means dragging him out of position, which won’t be an issue at RB.

If as a team we can control possession a bit more….some thing we failed to do from about November onwards….then you get the chance to get your full-backs joined up and up the pitch.

I’m pretty optimistic that Vyner especially will prove to be really useful at RB…and will in fact become his career position and his best position with it.  He grew into the position in a struggling Rotherham team in 18/19.  Now time to make it his own.  Simpson will give a solid rest and rotation option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m pretty optimistic that Vyner especially will prove to be really useful at RB…and will in fact become his career position and his best position with it.  He grew into the position in a struggling Rotherham team in 18/19.  Now time to make it his own.  Simpson will give a solid rest and rotation option.

Yep agreed, i dont know if there are any academy right backs coming through, but vyner is strong, can win a header, good athlete and is relaxed on the ball, hes got the opportunity for that position to be nailed down

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m pretty optimistic that Vyner especially will prove to be really useful at RB…and will in fact become his career position and his best position with it.  He grew into the position in a struggling Rotherham team in 18/19.  Now time to make it his own.  Simpson will give a solid rest and rotation option.

I really hope your right Dave. I know it was a struggling Rotherham side but I remember taking a look at their view of Vyner at the time on forums ect and they weren't impressed at all. That being said he was in an awful side and chucked in the deep end so I'm hopeful he can make that position his going forward I'm just not completely sold on the idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RedRoss said:

I know we are looking to add a striker to the mix and we've added to the spine but hopefully we are also looking at someone who can create and link the defensive minded midfielders we seem to have an abundance of to the forwards.

I can't see us relying on Palmer to do that job regularly even though he does have the ability but hasn't shown it consistently.

Is this something others think we should be addressing based on last season?

NP needs a Harry Kane. HK has some kind of talent to either run on balls passed in front of him in the box or some how puts him self in the correct position to for read a certain header that turns the opposing goalie back stepping. I do not rate Harry that much as if he played in a different position he would play crap. However a player like Harry not saying for one bit that Harry will be at BS3 next season but a player like this is what  NP needs to complete his jig saw puzzle for success. 

A crap player in the correct position is all that NP needs to get goals ripping through the net week in and week out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still have huge concerns about next season with the players we currently have. Appreciate the return of Weimann, Martin and a few, for me, uninspiring youth appearances last season - I still feel those on our books do not have the creative / scoring prowess to supplement the forwards. Having lost Diedhou this is more key than ever. Do not feel confident starting the season with O’Dowda, Palmer and or Semenyo as our supplementary goal threats. If Wells isn’t scoring, which he has struggled to do with poor service so far, it’ll be another scrap for safety. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

At the same time, I think creatively and chance creation happens in different ways. For me, it is less about finding an incredible playmaker - as they are few and far between at Championship level - but about how we can get the midfielders, wingers and full backs further up the pitch so the forwards are not isolated.

 

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Totally agree that creativity doesn’t mean you need creative players.  You can create without flair players, by good patterns coupled with good passing and movement.  It’s about cohesion.

Yepp, agree with these ⬆️

Perhaps worth thinking of it as being "threatening" rather than "creative" IMO.

It would be great to play attractive "creative" football, but our principal concern should simply be forming some kind of threat to the opposition, even if it's not especially pretty or "creative". As others have said, you don't need incredibly gifted technical players to achieve that (and as we've seen in the last few years, having gifted technical players is no guarantee of that).

2 hours ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

We took the lowest amount of shots ever in a Championship season (by a long way!)

Unfortunately, this is true. We also finished rock bottom of the xG-for table.

The "good" news is that this makes it very easy for us to improve. We don't necessarily need a multi-million pound attacking midfielder to improve; Simply being functional in keeping possession and moving the ball and red shirts up the pitch and into the opposition's final third would be a notable improvement upon last season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I really hope your right Dave. I know it was a struggling Rotherham side but I remember taking a look at their view of Vyner at the time on forums ect and they weren't impressed at all. That being said he was in an awful side and chucked in the deep end so I'm hopeful he can make that position his going forward I'm just not completely sold on the idea.

My concern with Vyner at the moment is that, much as I rate him, he's currently what I'd call a "five a side player" - in the sense that he's an extremely good footballer but not necessarily good in a particular position. I actually prefer him as a midfielder to a centre-back - although I know others disagree - but I think the major barrier to him playing centre-back at the moment is simply that him and Kalas aren't a natural pairing. 

I don't instinctively think of him as a right back but it's worth remembering he was two years younger at Rotherham and had not played a lot of Championship football. I think he was one of our stand-out players last season (admittedly there wasn't loads of competition) and I really do think he he has the potential to become a really good footballer at this level. However I think he needs to focus on one position. Right back isn't the one I'd immediately go for but , within our current team, I think right back is his best chance of establishing himself as a first choice player in the side. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

 

Yepp, agree with these ⬆️

Perhaps worth thinking of it as being "threatening" rather than "creative" IMO.

It would be great to play attractive "creative" football, but our principal concern should simply be forming some kind of threat to the opposition, even if it's not especially pretty or "creative". As others have said, you don't need incredibly gifted technical players to achieve that (and as we've seen in the last few years, having gifted technical players is no guarantee of that).

Unfortunately, this is true. We also finished rock bottom of the xG-for table.

The "good" news is that this makes it very easy for us to improve. We don't necessarily need a multi-million pound attacking midfielder to improve; Simply being functional in keeping possession and moving the ball and red shirts up the pitch and into the opposition's final third would be a notable improvement upon last season.

Thanks for confirming what I already knew to be true ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

My concern with Vyner at the moment is that, much as I rate him, he's currently what I'd call a "five a side player" - in the sense that he's an extremely good footballer but not necessarily good in a particular position. I actually prefer him as a midfielder to a centre-back - although I know others disagree - but I think the major barrier to him playing centre-back at the moment is simply that him and Kalas aren't a natural pairing. 

I don't instinctively think of him as a right back but it's worth remembering he was two years younger at Rotherham and had not played a lot of Championship football. I think he was one of our stand-out players last season (admittedly there wasn't loads of competition) and I really do think he he has the potential to become a really good footballer at this level. However I think he needs to focus on one position. Right back isn't the one I'd immediately go for but , within our current team, I think right back is his best chance of establishing himself as a first choice player in the side. 

Further to what I wrote, this is a reassuring read:

https://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/sport/view,how-rotherham-united-loanee-zak-vyner-fought-back-from-the-jeers_31729.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Still have huge concerns about next season with the players we currently have. Appreciate the return of Weimann, Martin and a few, for me, uninspiring youth appearances last season - I still feel those on our books do not have the creative / scoring prowess to supplement the forwards. Having lost Diedhou this is more key than ever. Do not feel confident starting the season with O’Dowda, Palmer and or Semenyo as our supplementary goal threats. If Wells isn’t scoring, which he has struggled to do with poor service so far, it’ll be another scrap for safety. 

It's worth noting the comments some have in terms of generating chances and threat via teamwork rather than individuals (e.g. through good patterns of play).

Having said that, I currently don't see us being a high scoring team next season. However, that's not to say that we'll be in a relegation scrap, it just means there's a greater requirement for us to be good defensively. I think NP may have even said that he was looking to build from the back (although I might be imagining that?).

Looking at our current transfer activity:
- Our "big signing" appears to be Atkinson, a promising CB.
- We've also recently retained Baker, a solid CB at this level when fit.
- We've signed Matty James and Andy King, 2 players both capable of playing the holding midfield role and protecting the back 4.

Hence, our actions also very much suggest an emphasis on being solid at the back and hard to beat. If we can achieve that, I'm not too concerned for us next season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, archie andrews said:

Palmer can certainly create high up the pitch but we need that player who can do it from deeper positions and been saying it for over 2 seasons now.... 

I always felt Palmer needs a bit more free reign and be 'told' to stay further forward by 10-15 yards rather than dropping back to pick the ball off the defenders.

If he can hold the ball or break the lines as well we know he can he on a more consistent basis further up the pitch, he could end up being our best player and almost a new signing.

Maybe with the better quality of 2 of James, Williams, King, Nagy behind, it will release him to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

I find it really hard to make much of a judgement based on last season where the players imploded. It was worse than some relegation sides I have witnessed . Having said that, the main group of players is the same, but we will have back from injury Baker, Weimann , Williams and to a lesser extent (as they played a few games) COD and Jay DAS. So 5 first team, or regular starters at our level. Add to that James, who is a very good player for this level and we are in a different shape. Simpson and King IMHO are question marks as to how they will perform, and to an extent also Atkinson who is making a big rapid jump up in level. So whilst there must be some caution, there are a number of good Championship level players available to us that we did not have regular access to last season. Having said that, there was something really wrong at the club last year, and performances and application were dire. I am hoping that was due to the club being safe from relegation and a group of players wanting out. We will find out in a few weeks if that was really the case, and if time out has allowed a reset . With application and focus I do not feel we should struggle but last season has left a lot of question marks, not least for NP himself. He cannot have been pleased with what he saw, and he will be the first to acknowledge ( he did) that it was far from acceptable. Personally I have not worked out how he wants us to play yet, apart from being a tougher nut to crack and playing with a back 4. How we score goals remains a mystery , and is the area I guess we all want to understand after a few years of minimal creativity. There are bound to be questions because of last year and we have not really understood what is the NP plan on the field. 

Our first home game with fans will be a very big indicator for many. Forget the result (though a damn home win would be ideal), they have to show a very serious commitment and application . Oh and have a few shots on goal. 

What’s a home win?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

The club talked about getting five players in and four - counting Baker - have arrived. So I think we are only getting one more player. I can’t remember if that fifth player was described as a striker or a forward but I think, given Wells and Martin can play as out and out forwards, a number 10 (who won’t actually wear a number 10 as King is wearing that) might be more crucial than a number 9 (which is now Martin, in shirt number terms, but also Wells).

At the same time, I think creatively and chance creation happens in different ways. For me, it is less about finding an incredible playmaker - as they are few and far between at Championship level - but about how we can get the midfielders, wingers and full backs further up the pitch so the forwards are not isolated.

If Atkinson, Baker and Kalas can give us solidity in defence and Williams and James help us control the midfield, we will create more chances, creative player or not.

Top post. We need to get a foothold in games to win them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RedRoss said:

I really hope your right Dave. I know it was a struggling Rotherham side but I remember taking a look at their view of Vyner at the time on forums ect and they weren't impressed at all. That being said he was in an awful side and chucked in the deep end so I'm hopeful he can make that position his going forward I'm just not completely sold on the idea.

Londoner beat me to it, but he came through that loan well in the end…let’s not forget he’d played CB at Plymouth and at City in his Scholarship years.  And it’s all about opinions, I just feel he has everything going for him to be a strong RB for us, and importantly a good fit too (height, athleticism, engine, can play, etc).  He lacks the physicality and ability to impose himself at CB at this level, so will always have question marks there.

I could well be wrong….but I wrote long before Pearson said he wanted 2 new CBs, that I saw Vyner and Simpson being our RBs next season….pretty sure Nige will be planning this.

1 hour ago, M.D said:

Maybe they think Alex Scott is the answer in front of the two holding/box to box midfielders

I think he’s a real talent, and having got a taste, he will be after more game time this season.  That may come from occasional starts or coming off the bench.  If he set himself a target of 1000 minutes in the Champ and hit it, that would be some effort.  It doesn’t sound a lot, but only 27 players aged 20 or under played a 1000 mins last season.

Only one under 18 - Harvey Elliott (loan from Liverpool).

Only three u19 - Mighten, Esteves (loan from Porto), Harwood-Bellis (loan from Man City).

F98E0771-DBA5-4B10-9323-49FC327A48D6.thumb.jpeg.39d9f2fc8045cb0b97dc75d4ca7e7bd2.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...