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England vs Italy. Is it coming home?


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I get the criticism of Southgate putting players who'd just walked on the park up for penalties but I don't get those who want to criticise the penalty takers themselves. Anyone can miss them, even the best as Messi's record from the spot proves. The kids at least stepped up and I'd be looking more at the senior pros who didn't. 

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3 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Disappointing at the time, but nothing like the feeling when City lose a big match.

COYR! Getting excited about proper football now.

Given that's the biggest football match in my lifetime the feeling was far worse than City losing any game.

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1 minute ago, Super said:

Given that's the biggest football match in my lifetime the feeling was far worse than City losing any game.

I follow England because I'm Englsh, but I've never been to one single England game. I've been to more City games than I care to imagine  :laugh:

City is my football team, the team I live and breathe for.  I always want England to win, but I can get over the disappointment almost immediately.

I suppose everyone is just different.

I felt for the young lads last night.

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Just now, AppyDAZE said:

I follow England because I'm Englsh, but I've never been to one single England game. I've been to more City games than I care to imagine  :laugh:

City is my football team, the team I live and breathe for.  I always want England to win, but I can get over the disappointment almost immediately.

I suppose everyone is just different.

I felt for the young lads last night.

Fair enough. I think with club football there is always another game very quickly so you get over any defeat pretty quickly.

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7 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I get the criticism of Southgate putting players who'd just walked on the park up for penalties but I don't get those who want to criticise the penalty takers themselves. Anyone can miss them, even the best as Messi's record from the spot proves. The kids at least stepped up and I'd be looking more at the senior pros who didn't. 

Who though?

Rashford is a penalty taker so that made sense. Sterling maybe should have stepped up? Stones? The rest of the team was pretty inexperienced by that point.

Theres no point people who are no good at penalties stepping up. This would have been discussed on the training ground, I doubt saka just got plucked from thin air as taker number 5 they would have planned that.

I was always shit under the pressure of penalties so I don’t judge any of them for missing or the ones who knew they’d be no good not stepping up. It’s mostly confidence over skill, every professional football is capable of putting the ball in the net from 12 yards.

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Another tournament of 'if only's' for me.

If only we'd played pressing, counter attacking football like we did in the first half for more than 30 minutes. Italy were on the back foot and arguing amongst themselves. We sat back and allowed them back into the game.

If only we'd had another fit, experienced forward. Kane wasn't at this tournament. No form and obviously not fit. Southgate can't fancy Calvert Lewin or he would have played more. Crying out for someone like Bamford to play 20 minutes and take the heat off Kane.

If only we'd believed in ourselves more. Too much back, side, back crab like passing 

If only Southgate trusted creative players. Grealish, Sancho and Foden all wasted.

If only Mason Mount wasn't the golden child. Runs around a lot, can take a free kick but creates very little but the pundits lick his ring constantly.

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2 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Another tournament of 'if only's' for me.

If only we'd played pressing, counter attacking football like we did in the first half for more than 30 minutes. Italy were on the back foot and arguing amongst themselves. We sat back and allowed them back into the game.

If only we'd had another fit, experienced forward. Kane wasn't at this tournament. No form and obviously not fit. Southgate can't fancy Calvert Lewin or he would have played more. Crying out for someone like Bamford to play 20 minutes and take the heat off Kane.

If only we'd believed in ourselves more. Too much back, side, back crab like passing 

If only Southgate trusted creative players. Grealish, Sancho and Foden all wasted.

If only Mason Mount wasn't the golden child. Runs around a lot, can take a free kick but creates very little but the pundits lick his ring constantly.

Glad you mentioned him for me he was a huge disappointment all tournament.

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8 minutes ago, Super said:

Given that's the biggest football match in my lifetime the feeling was far worse than City losing any game.

I suppose we (city) don’t have many ‘big’ games (playoffs, cup finals). I’ve just got used to England defeat over the years, doesn’t mean I like it though! But I think I’d feel worse if we lost PO final or FA Cup, or lost last game of the season and missed out on top two position because the reward of league progression is more rewarding. Tournament football is just different. 
I’m more emotionally involved with City.

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1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Old adage from my youth.

Hit a penalty as hard as you can on target. The goalkeeper will get lucky occasionally and you'll miss the target very occasionally.

All these fancy stop/start run ups to the ball and trying to pass it in with side of foot, is handing back the initiative to the goalkeeper.

Add in the fact you look like a dick when you miss after all your fancy footwork. Wellie it. 

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15 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I get the criticism of Southgate putting players who'd just walked on the park up for penalties but I don't get those who want to criticise the penalty takers themselves. Anyone can miss them, even the best as Messi's record from the spot proves. The kids at least stepped up and I'd be looking more at the senior pros who didn't. 

Yes I wondered whether some of the senior players were more bothered about their reputations than actually trying to win the match. Did they go to bed thankful that they hadn't let the team down?

The one who can apparently "walk on water" Jack Grealish, should have been bursting to take one and even if he'd missed would have looked better than ducking the responsibility. 

Perhaps Southgate put the young ones  through that as another part of their learning process. 

I like the team and manager, there are no Billy big bollocks and no one who "must" play or we're doomed as it used to be with Beckham and Rooney. 

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1 minute ago, Midred said:

Yes I wondered whether some of the senior players were more bothered about their reputations than actually trying to win the match. Did they go to bed thankful that they hadn't let the team down?

The one who can apparently "walk on water" Jack Grealish, should have been bursting to take one and even if he'd missed would have looked better than ducking the responsibility. 

Perhaps Southgate put the young ones  through that as another part of their learning process. 

I like the team and manager, there are no Billy big bollocks and no one who "must" play or we're doomed as it used to be with Beckham and Rooney. 

I'm sure I heard this morning that Southgate chose the order of takers from training.

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8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Add in the fact you look like a dick when you miss after all your fancy footwork. Wellie it. 

But you also look like a dick if you welly it 3 foot over the bar!

I know what you mean. But if that’s Rashford’s usual penalty style, and it usually works, surely there’s a greater risk changing it. It worked for JET. And the Italian winning 5th pen in the semi wasn’t dis-similar. 

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Yeh they said Gareth named the order. So responsibility has to be with him.

i know you’re supposed to hit an unstoppable strike but first and foremost, you gotta hit the target. Something sancho & saka both did. Had the GK gone the other way, there wouldn’t have been any mention.

Rashfords was the most disappointing for me. He’d done the hard part!

Deffo Sterling should’ve been given one.

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When Mount, Sterling disappear and Kane, whose game plan was brilliant in the first 20 minutes is sussed by the Italians, there ain’t a great deal of options for an ‘out ball’. So it proved. It just kept coming back. Southgate should have realised that. He did, but way too late and he kept a totally ineffective Mount on for far too long.

Thought Shaw was a revelation in this Tournament and his focus (and goal) last night unbelievable. Pickford, who had the wobbles in the QF and SF was immense too.
 

Playing Rice and Phillips in a two gave us a solid base but massively reliant on Sterling and another ‘magician’ Saka, Grelish, Foden playing out of their skins with real magic, particularly if the wing backs are pegged back. The magic didn’t happen last night and it was a big ask for it to appear consistently over that number of tournament games.

Surprisingly, our energy levels were poor last night.  Again, something Southgate should have realised and got fresher legs on quicker.  
 

Overall, decent effort to get to the final but probably our best chance of winning something blown by poor, slow in-game management. Reminded me of LJ paralysis when it seemed obvious to everyone but the manager that the opposition were going to score and something dramatic needed to change. The difference last night was Mancini’s ‘fleet of foot’ management style.
 

 

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36 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I get the criticism of Southgate putting players who'd just walked on the park up for penalties but I don't get those who want to criticise the penalty takers themselves. Anyone can miss them, even the best as Messi's record from the spot proves. The kids at least stepped up and I'd be looking more at the senior pros who didn't. 

Agree with that, although I'm not a fan of those stop-start penalties. They should've just blasted them

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19 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Heck. The post mortem is a bit strong. 

Best we've ever done at the Euros, tight game versus Italy, where neither team looked like they were going to score loads. 

England were quite happy to sit back and et Italy come at us as up front they were rubbish and offered nowt

Both teams strikers were shocking. Immobile and Kane were rubbish. 

And now the cries for 'better' start, despite this being 'the best' we've been consistently. 

So very odd. Im assuming it's because Southgate plays a non traditional english game, as there's no other reason for it, surely? 

Post mortems are usually unpleasant!

If we want to win something we have to honest about what happened. It was a fabulous tournament for England for sure and Southgate did a lot of good things. The hardest defeats are the ones where we really could have won. Man for man we had the talent to match Italy and in some areas we were stronger, younger and fitter. The very best managers can change games with a switch, but can also react to a switch. Unfortunately the bench wasn't just slow to react, they didn't react at all. We could still have lost, but the poor reaction to Mancini cost us our chance to win. I thought at halftime, get a second and this ours. Still, it was a pleasure to see a group of talented English players actually playing as a team, not just the usual dis-jointed mess and there should be a lot more to come from them.

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2 hours ago, The Batman said:

It's a fair point. I remember Portugal went out after 4 pens at a tournament a few years back and Ronaldo was in line to take the 5th. But surely you play the event. If 4 and 5 do need to be brought forward then do it. Surely players are not that robotic that they can't move one place forward if need be? 

You have to give the ref your 5 and who’s where  before the penalties.

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2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Remember 1990 and 1996 - no fancy routines then, but we still lost.  The fact is that penalties are a lottery, and ultimately don’t decide which is the better side, they just find you a winner.

Yes they are but I think some modern players have forgotten the basics of the game. It a bit like a tennis player who can serve at 125mph sending on down at 80mph but with lots of spin. It will be hammered back a lot faster.

Also I cannot understand why Southgate took Henderson off. He who takes penalties at Liverpool. Admittedly not all the time but at top level when he does.

Shame England lost. But my country, with only 3 million population, did OK again even if Bale did fluff a pen!

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Brazil 2002. England score early and are pushed back after adopting a defensive shape. England lose 2-1.

Portugal 2004. England score early and are pushed back after adopting a defensive shape. England lose on penalties.

Portugal 2006. England play a low risk game against a side reduced my a number of suspensions. England lose on penalties.

Croatia 2018. England score early and are pushed back after surrendering control of the midfield. England lose in extra time.

Italy 2020. England score early and are pushed back after surrendering control of the midfield. England lose on penalties. 

In nearly every one of these games England score early (2nd minute last night, roughly the 6th minute against Croatia, 3rd minute against Portugal in 2004) and then sit back until the inevitable happens. Basically the reverse of what happened to Denmark in the semi final. 

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1 hour ago, harrys said:

The facts are that he couldn’t of hand picked two easier routes to the final in the last two tournaments, shockingly negative team selection last night resulting in Kane not having a touch in the opposition’s box, the difference last night were the managers, a serial winner on one side and a guy on the other side who has had just 3 years as a premiership manager with Middlesbrough finishing in the bottom half twice before eventually getting them relegated and getting himself the sack, how the hell did he get the England gig?

Reread this several time and this post seems to be lacking any facts? Just a lot of odd opinions. 

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47 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Heck. The post mortem is a bit strong. 

Best we've ever done at the Euros, tight game versus Italy, where neither team looked like they were going to score loads. 

England were quite happy to sit back and et Italy come at us as up front they were rubbish and offered nowt

Both teams strikers were shocking. Immobile and Kane were rubbish. 

And now the cries for 'better' start, despite this being 'the best' we've been consistently. 

So very odd. Im assuming it's because Southgate plays a non traditional english game, as there's no other reason for it, surely? 

People find it easier to be negative after a result like this than positive. I actually am finding the negativity quite boring and I was one who didn't fancy our chances at all prior to the Tournament under Southgate. 

Throughout the Tournament Italy were the better side, we were the 2nd best team and on the night we were the 2nd best side. 

As usual, everyone is now focusing on the negatives.

Football did come home even if we didn't win, everyone was united again, but you wouldn't have thought it after the negative crap I'm seeing this Morning.

 

Can't wait for club football now

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18 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

It’s a English thing. Totally negative after going 1-0 up early on, we didn’t know how to manage it so we sat back and gave the initiative to Italy. 
 

We’ll never win anything with our mentality.

It is not English. There is no great themes of sitting on leads throughout England's international history. Being outplayed, losing control is not sitting on a lead v playing a near back seven England 2021. 

England if they have a identity has been one of power and strength going box to box. Managers have done differing things Manager to Manager. 

Mr Southgates thing is .. An opinion mine is he is the most defensive and conservative Manager England have ever had. Another opinion is he is the most defensive and  conservative Manager in charge of any top level European national team. Mr Southgate spurns creativity in his team for defensive shape.

A huge opportunity has been blown here while other top level nations are in transition. The Germans will come again, and the Spanish with the likes of another passing superstar in Pedro are.

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Sore one but at least focus can switch back fully to club football now. Even as we flew further into the competition, it never quite felt the same as supporting City. I think for many people, the connection to your club runs so deep that even something as important as international football tournament finals doesn't quite land the same. Hard luck to the England lads, they did very well overall. Now back to 'our' lads, the City boys, and a big season ahead.

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4 minutes ago, Coppello said:

Reread this several time and this post seems to be lacking any facts? Just a lot of odd opinions. 

That’s your opinion, what is a fact is his record in the three years as a premiership manager, go and check his awful stats better still ask Middlesbrough fans what they think of him of course it will only be their opinion 

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