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England vs Italy. Is it coming home?


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1 hour ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

You have to give the ref your 5 and who’s where  before the penalties.

Is that still a thing? My apologies.

Still stand by it though. 

Remember seeing an interview with Bobby Robson many years ago (annoyingly I've never been able to find it on YouTube) where he said about the 4th penalty being the most important. Interview was about italia 90 and Stuart Pearce. Out of the shootout against West Germany, the penalty he was leased worried about was Pearce's because it just never crossed his mind that he'd miss. 

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3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Remember 1990 and 1996 - no fancy routines then, but we still lost.  The fact is that penalties are a lottery, and ultimately don’t decide which is the better side, they just find you a winner.

Exactly. the penalty takers last night were cocky and did not pay respect to the Italian goal keeper or the England shirt they worry. sorry but I have watched the penalties over and over again and they were soft and cocky 

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4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

"Never get anywhere"................isn't a first final in 55 years "somewhere"? Particularly when the team 2-3 players short in key areas as it stands today. Seems that perspective has been overtaken by disappointment on the back of this defeat.

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

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2 minutes ago, City oz said:

Exactly. the penalty takers last night were cocky and did not pay respect to the Italian goal keeper or the England shirt they worry. sorry but I have watched the penalties over and over again and they were soft and cocky 

Cant agree with you on that

The reason they missed the pen was not because they were cocky

it was the exact opposite They didnt show any bottle or self belief 

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4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

Everything around the penalties was poor by Southgate and I'm glad he took responsibility for that because it was his **** up. A 19 year old kid, just by virtue of what he is, will of course put themselves forward to take responsibility for a penalty that could be absolutely crucial. Unfortunately it was Southgates job to protect Saka from himself and order the penalties better because I guarantee you that Saka didn't have a clue what he had let himself in for until he was halfway through his walk to pick up the ball..............he ended up being the turkey who voted for Christmas, lamb to the slaughter, cannon fodder, call it what you will and it was all Southgates fault.

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7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

Took off Walker and Henderson with over 100 caps of experience and let two young, only just come on the pitch lads with about 30 caps with Rashford not  fully fit plus a 19 year old lad take the responsibility.That was a c..k up as was his to lste subs. 

Grealish has since said he was willing to take a pen.

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It really is such a disadvantage kicking second in a shootout. Wish they went back to the ABBA system as that seemed to produce more even results. Why did they get rid of it in the first place? If you win the toss you've won half the battle already IMO. All three shootouts in this tournament were won by the team kicking first and there is further evidence over the years to back this up.

Despite this however, Italy were clearly deserved winners over the course of the match and tournament as a whole. Congratulations to them. 

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But who knows whether the fifth penalty will be important (or if it will even be necessary).  You have to put your best penalty taker first, and so on.

If you’re taking a 5th penalty then it is going to be important 

4th and 5th penalties are the most important if you miss the 1st 2nd or 3rd there is always a way back. To put him 5th is insane no matter how he took them in training. The guy has never take a penalty in a game in his life.

hopefully Southgate learns from this. And hopefully he learns to make a change rather than waiting to concede first. Very lee Johnson esq for me.

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Sadly, classic England just falling short at the last. It's disappointing beyond belief that racist abuse has been aimed at Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka & Jadon Sancho, but equally sadly, utterly predictable. The sooner the owners of these social media platforms name and shame these individuals the better. And employers should be calling them out once identified and sacking them.

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

We'll never have a better opportunity to win a tournament in many of our lifetimes, and although the majority of his decisions seemed to bear fruit during the tournament, on this occasion Southgate got it badly wrong.

(reading now that the Marcus Rashford mural in Manchester has been defaced - not sure I could more sad and embarrassed right now).

The strength of character that these young men are going to have to rely on, along with support from family and friends, is beyond my wildest comprehension.

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2 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

100% agree. I read this morning Saka had never taken a penalty in his career. I don't care how good he looks in training, asking a 19 year old to take the 5th penalty in a final, when he has literally never taken one before is totally bonkers. Terrible management. 

Other than that im totally pissed off and just want to forget it. ******* England.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

It was so poor, that decision, and when Southgate reflects on it he will realise that. Unfortunately it's not Gareth getting the racist abuse on social media and Saka may take a few months to get over this (if he can get over it a lot quicker then fair play to the kid for having such strength of character). It's not even that Saka took a pen, if he showed up well in training at least give him the first or second one not the bloody fifth one.

I appreciate all hindsight now............but if i was Southgate, I would have advised my young penalty takers especially........ that Goalkeepers are desperate to be the hero's in Penalty shootouts, and so commit a large percentage of the time to diving Right or Left, so hit it hard straight down the middle, a couple of feet up.  Lineker alluded to it, and so have quite a few coaches, including my own youth coach?   The only pen that was executed like that by Italy, was successful.  To me it's commonsense, and has to be better than the three awful penalties that were missed?  NOT that i blame the young players involved, just the older heads who train them.

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35 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those slagging off my man Jack. He put himself forward. For whatever reason, Southgate once again chose not to trust him. 
 

 

Southgate said something to Grealish in the huddle and i thought he was saying to him what number pen he was taking. People like Keane need to wait before shouting their mouths off.

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36 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

Sadly, classic England just falling short at the last. It's disappointing beyond belief that racist abuse has been aimed at Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka & Jadon Sancho, but equally sadly, utterly predictable. The sooner the owners of these social media platforms name and shame these individuals the better. And employers should be calling them out once identified and sacking them.

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

We'll never have a better opportunity to win a tournament in many of our lifetimes, and although the majority of his decisions seemed to bear fruit during the tournament, on this occasion Southgate got it badly wrong.

(reading now that the Marcus Rashford mural in Manchester has been defaced - not sure I could more sad and embarrassed right now).

The strength of character that these young men are going to have to rely on, along with support from family and friends, is beyond my wildest comprehension.

Can’t for the life of me understand Southgate’s strategy 2nd half. We sat back and let them come at us FFS. Kane and Sterling were non existent 2nd half.

Then putting 2 kids on as subs with seconds to go, then asking them both to take penalties was nuts.
Bad decisions that cost the game. He will live to regret those decisions.

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53 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Yes!  What the hell was that little dance for, did he think he was going to put off their goalie by doing that? So stupid!

He did put the 'keeper off, he literally sent him the wrong way. It's just that his penalty was so shite he managed to miss an open goal from 12 yards out 

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As a footnote, Football CAME home. The last 18 months have been hell for millions of people and many of us have lost friends or family from Covid. This brave young England team have united the country, lifting hearts and minds as a result. Football and its ability to inspire is the real winner and hopefully that will all make us a healthier nation.

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1 minute ago, Curr Avon said:

As a footnote, Football CAME home. The last 18 months have been hell for millions of people and many of us have lost friends or family from Covid. This brave young England team have united the country, lifting hearts and minds as a result. Football and its ability to inspire is the real winner and hopefully that will all make us a healthier nation.

Sorry for your losses but that is just sentimental claptrap. We blew what is probably going to be our best opportunity to win something. 

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5 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

Can’t for the life of me understand Southgate’s strategy 2nd half. We sat back and let them come at us FFS. Kane and Sterling were non existent 2nd half.

Then putting 2 kids on as subs with seconds to go, then asking them both to take penalties was nuts.
Bad decisions that cost the game. He will live to regret those decisions.

I'd agree about Kane and Sterling, for as good as Sterling was in the previous games, he seemed to save his worst performance for the Final. Never seemed able to trouble the Italian duo of Bonucci and Chiellini, in fairness the midfield never had the ball for long enough to give him any service. And not sure if I heard Gary Lineker right on the BBC coverage after the game last night, but Kane didn't have a single touch in the Italian penalty area during the match - is that right?  If so, that's absolutely scandalous.

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1 hour ago, GasDestroyer said:

Can’t for the life of me understand Southgate’s strategy 2nd half. We sat back and let them come at us FFS. Kane and Sterling were non existent 2nd half.

Then putting 2 kids on as subs with seconds to go, then asking them both to take penalties was nuts.
Bad decisions that cost the game. He will live to regret those decisions.

Sat back or…

…forced back / unable to get forward?

Italy stopped us playing down the wings (like we had all tourny), and made us play through a more congested centre of the pitch where they picked us off.  Some of that brought about through a change in system to match us up, but they’d already done a bit if that first half.

Rice had a really good game, but got sucked out of position by dribbling forward into trouble.  It looked great seeing him stride forward, but ultimately he lost the ball and got caught upfield.

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sat back or…

…forced back / unable to get forward?

Italy stopped us playing down the wings (like we had all tourny), and made us play through a more congested centre of the pitch where they picked us off.  Some of that brought about through a change in system to match us up, but they’d already done a bit if that first half.

Rice had a really good game, but got sucked out of position by dribbling forward into trouble.  It looked great seeing him stride forward, but ultimately he lost the ball and got caught upfield.

I’m glad you pointed that out Dave. I was of exactly that opinion. 
Lots of people saying what a great game Rice had, even the commentators were lauding him for his forward runs with the ball. But every single time he ran forward he ended up losing it. It looked like a good dribble, but what it did was basically concede possession. Especially in moments of the game where he just needed to put his foot on it, pass it to a teammate and keep the ball for a period. 
Rice dribbling forward about 8 times with the ball just played into the Italians hands and gave them the ball back every time. 

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Just now, Harry said:

I’m glad you pointed that out Dave. I was of exactly that opinion. 
Lots of people saying what a great game Rice had, even the commentators were lauding him for his forward runs with the ball. But every single time he ran forward he ended up losing it. It looked like a good dribble, but what it did was basically concede possession. Especially in moments of the game where he just needed to put his foot on it, pass it to a teammate and keep the ball for a period. 
Rice dribbling forward about 8 times with the ball just played into the Italians hands and gave them the ball back every time. 

Slightly different, but remember saying the same about Beckham’s one man show v Greece in 2001 (?).  Brilliant performance, or was it?  He was everywhere, all over the pitch, wonderful….everywhere apart from where he was meant to be.  Cost us our team shape that evening, we were so disjointed.  Atoned somewhat with the free-kick, but one of the most ill-disciplined performances I’ve ever witnessed at that level.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Slightly different, but remember saying the same about Beckham’s one man show v Greece in 2001 (?).  Brilliant performance, or was it?  He was everywhere, all over the pitch, wonderful….everywhere apart from where he was meant to be.  Cost us our team shape that evening, we were so disjointed.  Atoned somewhat with the free-kick, but one of the most ill-disciplined performances I’ve ever witnessed at that level.

99.9% of fans wont see that

All they see is a headless chicken and a few hollywood passes

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2 hours ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Yes!  What the hell was that little dance for, did he think he was going to put off their goalie by doing that? So stupid!

Well technically yes he did, sat him down and sent him the wrong way, just dragged it wide. Inches the other way and he’s a genius like many said about Jorginho in mid week

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28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sat back or…

…forced back / unable to get forward?

Italy stopped us playing down the wings (like we had all tourny), and made us play through a more congested centre of the pitch where they picked us off.  Some of that brought about through a change in system to match us up, but they’d already done a bit if that first half.

Rice had a really good game, but got sucked out of position by dribbling forward into trouble.  It looked great seeing him stride forward, but ultimately he lost the ball and got caught upfield.

England had success but Italy adjusted. The shape was also going to be negated by Italy's ability to occupy the centre of the pitch with numerical superiority and screen off U passing attacks down the flanks. The formation became 5-2-3 in the first half. The three were isolated. Kane dropped in ineffectually. Mount was ineffectual and not dynamic and slowed down transitions. The front three also became flat. And England again became a seven and a three. In possession centrally Italy feasted on a base of easy possession (70%) as England allowed them to sit in the second third. Rice and Philipps due to the system couldn't cover all that. It was a tactical horror show. Awful.

Rice travelling ... Well done. He was trying to problem solve and break lines. Taking responsibility. It got England up the park rather than sat on their arse in their box or just past it .. Somebody had to attempt to break the malaise .. Its hard for a CDM with a limited range of pass to do so but at least he attempted different.

 

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2 hours ago, BanburyRed said:

Sadly, classic England just falling short at the last. It's disappointing beyond belief that racist abuse has been aimed at Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka & Jadon Sancho, but equally sadly, utterly predictable. The sooner the owners of these social media platforms name and shame these individuals the better. And employers should be calling them out once identified and sacking them.

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

We'll never have a better opportunity to win a tournament in many of our lifetimes, and although the majority of his decisions seemed to bear fruit during the tournament, on this occasion Southgate got it badly wrong.

(reading now that the Marcus Rashford mural in Manchester has been defaced - not sure I could more sad and embarrassed right now).

The strength of character that these young men are going to have to rely on, along with support from family and friends, is beyond my wildest comprehension.

Is that abuse new? I remember people Burning effigies of Beckham in 98. We’ve just got some scummy people in this country

Just specifically comparing the mural defacing here as there is nothing to suggest that is racist as far as I can see just targeting someone who made a mistake. It goes without saying the racist abuse is abhorrent

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1 hour ago, Curr Avon said:

As a footnote, Football CAME home. The last 18 months have been hell for millions of people and many of us have lost friends or family from Covid. This brave young England team have united the country, lifting hearts and minds as a result. Football and its ability to inspire is the real winner and hopefully that will all make us a healthier nation.

Completely disagree. All the pictures and abuse of players suggested otherwise 

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