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England vs Italy. Is it coming home?


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2 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Is that abuse new? I remember people Burning effigies of Beckham in 98. We’ve just got some scummy people in this country

Just specifically comparing the mural defacing here as there is nothing to suggest that is racist as far as I can see just targeting someone who made a mistake. It goes without saying the racist abuse is abhorrent

The abuse isn’t new unfortunately. In many ways you could probably argue Beckham had it worse in 1998, burning pictures of him in the street his family also being targeted by gangs etc etc.
Im not condoning the racist online abuse Saka Rashford and Sancho have received by the way but as we have seen with Beckham in 1998 this country is more than happy to turn on a white man when a mistake has cost us in a major tournament..

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15 hours ago, chinapig said:

He thought he was Bruno Fernandez. If he was doing that in training he should have been told to ******* stop it.

Exactly. One of the pundits, might have been Shearer, said you step up and do exactly what you have practiced over and over again. No hesitancy, no change of plan, but exactly the pen you have perfected.

I paraphrase, but that’s what I understood him to mean. Not a time to try something different or new. Not a time to be clever. So why the hell did Rashford chose to go off script? No one can convince me that was what he had practiced.

Trouble is once he had done that the last two by our players were dead in the water. Poor decision by a player struggling for form with no gametime last evening. At least he had the bottle to step up. 

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8 minutes ago, RedM said:

Exactly. One of the pundits, might have been Shearer, said you step up and do exactly what you have practiced over and over again. No hesitancy, no change of plan, but exactly the pen you have perfected.

I paraphrase, but that’s what I understood him to mean. Not a time to try something different or new. Not a time to be clever. So why the hell did Rashford chose to go off script? No one can convince me that was what he had practiced.

Trouble is once he had done that the last two by our players were dead in the water. Poor decision by a player struggling for form with no gametime last evening. At least he had the bottle to step up. 

What's annoying is that they've been saying that after every penalty shootout for the last 20 years!

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1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

On penalties I think Shearer is just saying what worked for him. I doubt all good penalty takers work on exactly where they're going to hit it in training. I think some would even decide when walking up to take it.

Everyone will have their own way of doing it.  Lineker practiced where he was gonna put it every day until he got his next penalty.  That way he had his muscle memory to do it when it mattered.

Those players that wait for the keeper to commit are incredible (when they score).  Not sure how they delay so long.

Even I had my own routine.  Place the ball, point the adaptor towards where I was going (always my left, keeper’s right), walk back to the D, turn without stopping, and run toward the ball, never looking at the keeper.  Firm sign food, hopefully low into the corner.  Took quite a lot over the years, generally successful.  In shoot outs, scored 3, had 1 saved.  Best one - v Bristol Rovers in the Fry Cup semi final (we won the shoot-out to play City in the final - got dicked 5-1).

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37 minutes ago, RedM said:

Exactly. One of the pundits, might have been Shearer, said you step up and do exactly what you have practiced over and over again. No hesitancy, no change of plan, but exactly the pen you have perfected.

I paraphrase, but that’s what I understood him to mean. Not a time to try something different or new. Not a time to be clever. So why the hell did Rashford chose to go off script? No one can convince me that was what he had practiced.

Trouble is once he had done that the last two by our players were dead in the water. Poor decision by a player struggling for form with no gametime last evening. At least he had the bottle to step up. 

He's taken penalties like that several times, whether you agree with it or not. He sent the keeper the wrong way, it was inches away from being brilliant

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Slightly different, but remember saying the same about Beckham’s one man show v Greece in 2001 (?).  Brilliant performance, or was it?  He was everywhere, all over the pitch, wonderful….everywhere apart from where he was meant to be.  Cost us our team shape that evening, we were so disjointed.  Atoned somewhat with the free-kick, but one of the most ill-disciplined performances I’ve ever witnessed at that level.

And yet without him, as per the media, we were doomed!

If the media had picked the team this time Grealish would have played every game and yes, he did provide a couple of assists but mainly he looked for fouls.

I think Italy got wise to him when he came on.

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6 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

Don't want to start another thread, so

Jorginho's on Grealish.

Yellow, Red, or orange?

The tell tale thing was him dropping to the floor claiming to be injured too.

Probably not quite a red, but pretty close for me.

Put it this way: if he'd given red, I don't think VAR would have changed it.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

I’m glad you pointed that out Dave. I was of exactly that opinion. 
Lots of people saying what a great game Rice had, even the commentators were lauding him for his forward runs with the ball. But every single time he ran forward he ended up losing it. It looked like a good dribble, but what it did was basically concede possession. Especially in moments of the game where he just needed to put his foot on it, pass it to a teammate and keep the ball for a period. 
Rice dribbling forward about 8 times with the ball just played into the Italians hands and gave them the ball back every time. 

Agree - although a number of those times he had options, and a couple of times very good ones; just didn't release it at the right time.

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6 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Agree with that, although I'm not a fan of those stop-start penalties. They should've just blasted them

Didn't you enjoy them when JET took them like that? In fact, his were more like stop-stop! 

It's a legitimate technique, I think - and I remember keepers at City when JET was here saying how he always scored them, even in training. It's clever, because the keeper has to commit before you kick it - and if he doesn't then all you have to do is keep it low - he'll never get down in time.

It does pre-suppose, of course, that you hit the target!!

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5 hours ago, big dosser said:

we have had a good tournament and the young lads will learn from this.one thing i will say is you can not right off a 34 and 36 year old centre half as chiellini and bonucci bloody outstanding, both no how to manage a game and are very clever in the dark arts of the game.

when chiellini new he was beat by saka he had no hesitation to grab him by the shirt and rip him to the ground some might call it cheating some may call it first class defending.this is something i hope np will bring in at city as we have been to soft over the years

on penalty's no ones to blame i scored goals for fun over the years but by god was i a shite penalty take always change my mind in the run up and missed 13 in my career 

Did you ever try taking them Rashford/JET style though?! Or was yours a 'welly it' style? ?

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9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Agree - although a number of those times he had options, and a couple of times very good ones; just didn't release it at the right time.

Exactly. Because he’s not a dynamic winger. When Rice decided to dribble forward, even though he had options once he got there, he’s not a good enough player to find that pass on the run. That’s why he’s a pretty static DM - that’s his skill. By dribbling forward he was always putting himself in an unfamiliar position. It was quite rash to be fair. It meant we continually lost possession too easily - but people will remember him for having a good game because he dribbled forward and beat a man a few times - even though absolutely nothing came of those actions. 
For me, Rice was one of those who got ‘caught up’ in the game. If he wasn’t dribbling unnecessarily he was hoofing it away. His job in possession is to pass pass pass, 5 yards here, 10 years there. He didn’t successfully do that all night. He failed in his role in this strategy. 

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1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

What's annoying is that they've been saying that after every penalty shootout for the last 20 years!

Strangely, we won the last two shoot-outs, versus Switzerland in the Nations League 3rd Place Play-Off (2019), and against Colombia in the last 16 World Cup clash (2018).

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31 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Didn't you enjoy them when JET took them like that? In fact, his were more like stop-stop! 

It's a legitimate technique, I think - and I remember keepers at City when JET was here saying how he always scored them, even in training. It's clever, because the keeper has to commit before you kick it - and if he doesn't then all you have to do is keep it low - he'll never get down in time.

It does pre-suppose, of course, that you hit the target!!

They just seem a bit arrogant to me - not really the thing you want in a Euro final! Saying that, I just looked back at the penalties. Saka's and Jadon's were pretty decent, just really good saves. Rashford has to hit the target at least though

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sat back or…

…forced back / unable to get forward?

Italy stopped us playing down the wings (like we had all tourny), and made us play through a more congested centre of the pitch where they picked us off.  Some of that brought about through a change in system to match us up, but they’d already done a bit if that first half.

Rice had a really good game, but got sucked out of position by dribbling forward into trouble.  It looked great seeing him stride forward, but ultimately he lost the ball and got caught upfield.

And this for me is why Southgate wont win anything with England, it was clear to all that Italy were well on top and IMO he wasn’t brave enough with making positive changes. We have players in that squad that can keep the ball and take the pressure off, they were not utilised. 

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25 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

They just seem a bit arrogant to me - not really the thing you want in a Euro final! Saying that, I just looked back at the penalties. Saka's and Jadon's were pretty decent, just really good saves. Rashford has to hit the target at least though

I re-watched the shoot out just now. Donnarumma is a big bastard, and if he guesses right there is a good chance he is getting something on it. Sancho and Saka's shots just didnt have enough on them. Maguire's penalty was ridiculously good - like Chris Waddles one that actually went in. Finally for Pickford to save two and for us to still lose - ***** sake.

Im going to take up choir or something. Footy is too stressful

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10 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I re-watched the shoot out just now. Donnarumma is a big bastard, and if he guesses right there is a good chance he is getting something on it. Sancho and Saka's shots just didnt have enough on them. Maguire's penalty was ridiculously good - like Chris Waddles one that went in. Finally for Pickford to save two and for us to still lose - ***** sake.

Im going to take up choir or something. Footy is too stressful

Haha sounds like a good plan! 

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38 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

They just seem a bit arrogant to me - not really the thing you want in a Euro final! Saying that, I just looked back at the penalties. Saka's and Jadon's were pretty decent, just really good saves. Rashford has to hit the target at least though

Glad you said that about the first two: I haven’t looked at them again, but my recollection was exactly that, neither were that bad. So thanks for confirming. You have to say that both Pickford and Donnarumma did well.

As for Rashford, How it looks is the risk with those: if it fails you look a tool. But I’d still say it’s a good technique if you get it right - and if it’s Rashfords usual one then why change it. 

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All in all, England done well.

On the night, the Italian players just seemed to want it more, while England, after that cracking start, backed off and went into their shell. This is something Southgate needs to examine closely and fix asap.

The organisers need to find a better/fairer way than penalty shoot-outs, to determine the cup-winners.

Penalties are a really hit and miss thing (literally in England's case, unfortunately).

We thought football was coming home, but England failed to pasta test, and so it went to Rome.

 

 

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I've digested yesterday's antics. I've listened to the podcasts, I've read the post-mortems, and I've chewed the fat with my friends. I've not kept up with this thread though, so apologies for any repetition in the below. The below is slightly rambling, slightly manic, and slightly depressive, but there you are.

The result yesterday has disappointed me so much. Ultimately my feelings are that England have thrown away what may be the only chance of silverware that I witness in my lifetime. We came close, we came up against a good team, and we came up short.

I'm no tactical genius, nor have I deeply analysed the game. However, my 2p on the game itself, I was jubilant at half-time. We'd played well, we'd scored, and we looked strong. The second half changed things, I don't know why but it felt like we realised what was at stake, and we bottled it. If only we had been able to push on, to grow, to be stonrg. Ok so Italy are good, and they seemed to have lady luck on their side. Perhaps both Chiellini and Jorginho should/could have been shown reds for their "challenges" on Saka and Grealish respectively, but they weren't. At the time I was furious with the bloke in fuchsia, but now I am more philosophical.

The penalties...honestly the worst thing is that we clearly had no plan. I don't care what Southgate says, we took forever to pick our 5. Italy were standing around waiting. Then despite all that we let a 19 year-old lad take the most important penalty in England's history? It's borderline irresponsible. If he sticks his hand up to take it then the senior players, and manager need to ruffle his hair and say "good lad but you can sit down. This is on our shoulders.". As soon as he walked forward I knew we'd lost it. I said as much in the pub.

I'm just gutted. Supporting city and England is a life of strife that I have in large part now accepted as such. I reveled in finally watching a major final (I think we can all agree that whilst the JPT was fun, it's not quite on the same level as the Euros) that I actually gave a shit about. The FA might think that "the real lesson is the friends we made along the way"...but screw it I wanted to win.

I'll end by saying that I left the bar after Saka kicked the ball, bought my wife an ice cream on the way home, and then changed my baby boy's dirty nappy. Ultimately it's family, and friends that are important...but dear god I wanted us to win.

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@ExiledAjaxWhat he said. 

Was really hopeful that this was Englands time but hey ho. 

Grealish has replied to reports that he should have stepped up, he did put himself forward to take penalties but Mr Southgate chose not to use him. I wonder if other players also did? 

I do think that with the stupidly late substitutions and choice of penalty takers, was Mr Southgate already governed or decided, due to personal or outside influences, that to the possible detriment of winning the game he wanted to install certain players. 

Absolutely shocking if that's the case and possibly has cost us a place in footballing history. 

I was, prior to the game happy to trust in Mr Southgates team selection and tactics but believe he got it badly wrong this time. 

I was 5 in 1966, can't really remember it, said to my Grandsons that last night was massive and to savour it as these occasions are rare. They, like the rest of us are gutted.

Hopefully I'll live to see a major win, as will they, but they, like me loved the whole journey, loved being proud to be English and celebrating it. 

Definitely a wasted opportunity and who knows how long it will be for another chance of silverware. 

Great to hear everyone's thoughts and input. 

After all, it's only football.... Isn't it? 

 

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48 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I've digested yesterday's antics. I've listened to the podcasts, I've read the post-mortems, and I've chewed the fat with my friends. I've not kept up with this thread though, so apologies for any repetition in the below. The below is slightly rambling, slightly manic, and slightly depressive, but there you are.

The result yesterday has disappointed me so much. Ultimately my feelings are that England have thrown away what may be the only chance of silverware that I witness in my lifetime. We came close, we came up against a good team, and we came up short.

I'm no tactical genius, nor have I deeply analysed the game. However, my 2p on the game itself, I was jubilant at half-time. We'd played well, we'd scored, and we looked strong. The second half changed things, I don't know why but it felt like we realised what was at stake, and we bottled it. If only we had been able to push on, to grow, to be stonrg. Ok so Italy are good, and they seemed to have lady luck on their side. Perhaps both Chiellini and Jorginho should/could have been shown reds for their "challenges" on Saka and Grealish respectively, but they weren't. At the time I was furious with the bloke in fuchsia, but now I am more philosophical.

The penalties...honestly the worst thing is that we clearly had no plan. I don't care what Southgate says, we took forever to pick our 5. Italy were standing around waiting. Then despite all that we let a 19 year-old lad take the most important penalty in England's history? It's borderline irresponsible. If he sticks his hand up to take it then the senior players, and manager need to ruffle his hair and say "good lad but you can sit down. This is on our shoulders.". As soon as he walked forward I knew we'd lost it. I said as much in the pub.

I'm just gutted. Supporting city and England is a life of strife that I have in large part now accepted as such. I reveled in finally watching a major final (I think we can all agree that whilst the JPT was fun, it's not quite on the same level as the Euros) that I actually gave a shit about. The FA might think that "the real lesson is the friends we made along the way"...but screw it I wanted to win.

I'll end by saying that I left the bar after Saka kicked the ball, bought my wife an ice cream on the way home, and then changed my baby boy's dirty nappy. Ultimately it's family, and friends that are important...but dear god I wanted us to win.

Kind of exactly how I feel.

Its so nuts hard to win a major trophy. Just one average game, or match where the breaks go the other way and it’s all over.

So much to admire about this group of players and Southgate, but second half was just watching a slow motion car crash knowing what was coming. The frustration was that when we eventually made a couple of subs, it became more obvious how gassed Italy were actually becoming and in ET I thought if anything we edged it. Suddenly it looked like Italy were happy with penalties. There is risk in any way be played. We ended up playing the way most likely to lose the lead.

Tactically, we just lacked confidence in what we were doing up to then, notwithstanding the changes Italy made. It was just such a wonderful opportunity to grasp the moment.

As for Saka, we let a lad who has never so much as taken a competitive penalty in a senior match take the most important penalty for us in most fans lifetimes.

This team can learn and grow. Southgate has to too.

 

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26 minutes ago, freezer said:

@ExiledAjaxWhat he said. 

Was really hopeful that this was Englands time but hey ho. 

Grealish has replied to reports that he should have stepped up, he did put himself forward to take penalties but Mr Southgate chose not to use him. I wonder if other players also did? 

I do think that with the stupidly late substitutions and choice of penalty takers, was Mr Southgate already governed or decided, due to personal or outside influences, that to the possible detriment of winning the game he wanted to install certain players. 

Only those in that huddle know the true reasons for picking those 5. If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, then no I don't think that was why Southgate put Saka up for it. It's not even just Grealish, we had Shaw and Sterling still on that pitch, both seasoned pros with god knows how many caps for big clubs, and country. Sterling was probably England's player of the tournament...I wish I knew why it was Saka and not him. But I don't, so c'est la vie.

11 minutes ago, cityexile said:

This team can learn and grow. Southgate has to too.

The only thing left to do really. 

The one positive is that in Euro 2020(1) I think we did see that lessons had been learnt from World Cup 2018. Improvements were made, and we got to the final of what is frankly a much harder tournament to win that the WC. If we can improve as much between now and December 2022 as we have since July 2018, then there's a chance.

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If you want to win at international level you need a world class midfield, by and large (Greece in 2004 excepted). Look at the recent world cup winners at CM; Kante, Pogba, Kroos, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo. 

It's not a guarantee, after all we had a decent group of 'names' under Sven that didn't gel. But without a quality ball playing and retaining midfield you suffer in the big games. With all due respect, Mount, Rice and Phillips are not a high enough quality midfield to dominate good opposition and create chances. Perhaps Bellingham will become good enough. Henderson being injured was also unfortunate. But it was in the middle where ultimately England are lacking. 

It's a massive frustration that Ali, for all his faults, hasn't developed like many of us were hoping back in 2017. 

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14 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

Brazil 2002. England score early and are pushed back after adopting a defensive shape. England lose 2-1.

Portugal 2004. England score early and are pushed back after adopting a defensive shape. England lose on penalties.

Portugal 2006. England play a low risk game against a side reduced my a number of suspensions. England lose on penalties.

Croatia 2018. England score early and are pushed back after surrendering control of the midfield. England lose in extra time.

Italy 2020. England score early and are pushed back after surrendering control of the midfield. England lose on penalties. 

In nearly every one of these games England score early (2nd minute last night, roughly the 6th minute against Croatia, 3rd minute against Portugal in 2004) and then sit back until the inevitable happens. Basically the reverse of what happened to Denmark in the semi final. 

Gareth has learned his lesson so in future will set teams up so as not to score early. 

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I'll be honest everyone, I feel desperately sad that we lost. Going into work has been a real bummer this last couple of days. Reading this forum offers a bit of solace. 

Can't help but feel it's a huge opportunity lost. It's unlikely that the route to a final will be as favourable as this one was. 

?

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