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England vs Italy. Is it coming home?


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2 hours ago, The Batman said:

I'd never criticise a player for missing a pen in a shootout. Takes a lot of bottle to step up to be one of the first 5. 

I always said that the best takers should go 4th and 5th as they're most crucial. But maybe I'm just too old school now. 

 

There's a very good reason why you don't have your best penalty takers at 5 or even 4. It's because it might not get that far. 

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3 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Dead ball specialist Calvert Lewin,that’s a stretch isn’t it,scored 2 out of 2 while rashford has scored 13 out of 15 in big games,sancho was strange tho I admit 

 

The point is - form

At no stage over this Championship, its run-up has Rashford looked like he's in form.  He's scored twice in his last 15 games.

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Gutted. Really gutted. Still, onward and upward. Southgate has created something special here but I feel his time maybe up?

Hearing things on radio about crowd trouble??

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Absolutely no way Southgate will not be offered a new contract. Not sure I can think of an obvious replacement but that second half was just so predictable. 

England did exactly the same thing as in the Croatia SF. Sat too deep and let the other team have the initiative. GS took way too long to make subs and has to take some of the blame. Kane and Sterling were ineffective and I hate penalty shootouts as our players are not mentally strong enough to win them. 

I expect GS to carry on until the WC when we get a less favourable draw, we go out early and he gets the sack. All depressingly predictable. 

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14 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Absolutely no way Southgate will not be offered a new contract. Not sure I can think of an obvious replacement but that second half was just so predictable. 

England did exactly the same thing as in the Croatia SF. Sat too deep and let the other team have the initiative. GS took way too long to make subs and has to take some of the blame. Kane and Sterling were ineffective and I hate penalty shootouts as our players are not mentally strong enough to win them. 

I expect GS to carry on until the WC when we get a less favourable draw, we go out early and he gets the sack. All depressingly predictable. 

Yeh agree with that bro. I thought we’d be over run in midfield and it proved so. It seems weird but we probably scored too early? I like Southgate but he’s so f ...in defensive! Bloody hard to watch. 

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So good early on, then let Italy take over. Very negative football when t was clear Italy were there to be taken We did not use the talent we had, they were sat on the bench. So it was bitter sweet. So much to admire but the feeling was we never got out of second gear. 

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First off , well done to Southgate, the staff and players. 
 

Congratulations to Italy who were the best team in the tournament and despite , the pressure from the crowd ,losing some of their best players and chasing the game from the off still had enough to beat a  very good England team.

The stars aligned for England which makes the defeat even harder. 

I believe GS lost it with his subs being introduced too late and both Rashford and Sancho were ‘ cold’ having hardly got into the match.

Wasn’t Sancho’s first touch of the ball his penalty ?

 The future is bright and we have a World Cup next year .

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Mancini has done a great job taking us from World Cup absentees to euro champs… Bonucci and chiellini were outstanding last night but surely they won’t be around in Quatar next year.

Enjoyable tournament with the two best teams in the final.

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5 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Is anyone surprised at that?

Italy started to overrun from halfway through the first half and it continued in the beginning of the second half.

Southgate waited ridiculously too long to make changes. Next idiocy, sending players on at the last minute "to take penalties".

It doesn't work.  If anyone has been watching the Cope D'America you'd have seen a game where Paraguay had to take penalties against Uruguay: they sent some bloke on as a sub and he completely ****** it up. Players need to have a number of touches to play into the game.  Sancho and Rashford barely touched the ball. And Rashford has been in terrible form for months.  Dead-ball specialist Calvert-Lewin was unused.

England will never get anywhere with Southgate in charge. 

We have the players. We simply do not have the brain to use them. 

"Never get anywhere"................isn't a first final in 55 years "somewhere"? Particularly when the team 2-3 players short in key areas as it stands today. Seems that perspective has been overtaken by disappointment on the back of this defeat.

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We’ve got the players, we just need a manager capable of making us play as a team. Just like City of a couple of years ago, we’ve bullied our way past teams by having better players, but we just lack the togetherness of a team like Denmark. 

I dont dislike Gareth Southgate, but there’s got to be better out there. The tactics last night were pretty awful. Everyone could see the equaliser coming, except for one man. 

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5 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

There's a very good reason why you don't have your best penalty takers at 5 or even 4. It's because it might not get that far. 

It's a fair point. I remember Portugal went out after 4 pens at a tournament a few years back and Ronaldo was in line to take the 5th. But surely you play the event. If 4 and 5 do need to be brought forward then do it. Surely players are not that robotic that they can't move one place forward if need be? 

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11 minutes ago, NewquayRed said:

Can’t believe the calls for Southgate to go after just making a final, young manager learning the trade along side the players. He gets next year in Qatar for me at least. 

Realistically, should you be learning your trade as the England manager? Definitely not. 

Whereas I don’t think he’s necessarily done a bad job, tactically I think he’s naive and we could and should have done better. 

Whereas I think sacking him would be a little unfair, we need to be in the best possible position for Qatar and I think to be in said best possible position, we need someone with experience… someone who has teams playing better than the sum of its parts. And for me, that’s not Gareth Southgate. 

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Old adage from my youth.

Hit a penalty as hard as you can on target. The goalkeeper will get lucky occasionally and you'll miss the target very occasionally.

All these fancy stop/start run ups to the ball and trying to pass it in with side of foot, is handing back the initiative to the goalkeeper.

Edited by cidered abroad
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28 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

We’ve got the players, we just need a manager capable of making us play as a team. Just like City of a couple of years ago, we’ve bullied our way past teams by having better players, but we just lack the togetherness of a team like Denmark. 

I dont dislike Gareth Southgate, but there’s got to be better out there. The tactics last night were pretty awful. Everyone could see the equaliser coming, except for one man. 

Spot on. It does my head, it really does. You could see we were on the ropes and that an equaliser was coming and Southgate makes the changes after the goal? With the players at his disposal we should have put up a better display than that. 

Mancini is a much better manager all day long!

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3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Old adage from my youth.

Hit a penalty as hard as you can on target. The goalkeeper will get lucky occasionally and you'll miss the target very occasionally.

All these fancy stop/start run ups to the ball and trying to pass it in with side of foot, is handing back the initiative to the goalkeeper.

Completely agree.

After all of the superb play and tactics leading up to that moment the penalty shoot out was very poor. Rashford, Sancho and Saka all had very poor attempts. When your keeper saves two you should be in with a chance. 

The senior players seemed to go AWOL though, although GS said that was the running order from training so maybe the occasion got to them. 

Either way it’s a massive opportunity missed. 

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30 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

We’ve got the players, we just need a manager capable of making us play as a team. Just like City of a couple of years ago, we’ve bullied our way past teams by having better players, but we just lack the togetherness of a team like Denmark. 

I dont dislike Gareth Southgate, but there’s got to be better out there. The tactics last night were pretty awful. Everyone could see the equaliser coming, except for one man. 

I think Southgate called it wrong in the second half and extra time last night but I think he has done a better job of getting England to play as a team than any manager since Bobby Robson. (I got into football just as Robson left the England job so don’t feel qualified to comment on him or anyone who went before).

Plus Southgate has two tournaments and so far has one semi final and one final, plus got us our first knockout win against major opposition since Euro 96, if we are being kind to the Spain side of the time m, or Christ knows when before that if we’re not. People will say Germany weren’t in great form but they finished above (and utterly dominated) Portugal.

The cold hard facts are Southgate has the second best tournament record of any England manager in history. We’ve chased the “better” for 55 years. Manager after manager has failed to provide it.

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After sleeping on that and listening to the post-mortem comments from various sources I end up with some simple conclusions:

The better team won

England have significantly improved over recent years 

Southgate is doing a solid job

There is more to come from this squad

 

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20 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Old adage from my youth.

Hit a penalty as hard as you can on target. The goalkeeper will get lucky occasionally and you'll miss the target very occasionally.

All these fancy stop/start run ups to the ball and trying to pass it in with side of foot, is handing back the initiative to the goalkeeper.

Remember 1990 and 1996 - no fancy routines then, but we still lost.  The fact is that penalties are a lottery, and ultimately don’t decide which is the better side, they just find you a winner.

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Devastated. 

We've made progress under Southgate and with a talented batch of youngsters there's no reason why we can't get our hands on a trophy in the foreseeable future. 

Italy were the best team in the tournament in fairness. 

Gutted for Rashford, Sancho and Saka. Brave to step up and take one, will be better players for it. Absolutely disgusting the abuse they're getting but sadly it was totally predictable.

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8 hours ago, Slacker said:

There goal was coming for such a long time and we did nothing to counter it.I think this was where we really lost our chance. England did really well to get to the final,but the better team won on the night.

From about 25 minutes we retreated. Stopped pressing high. Italy began to dominate the ball and we couldn't get sustained possession after really. 

As for the penalties Switzerland tried the same staggered jumpy run ups vs Spain and lost out. Penalties are very straight forward. You run up and kick the ball in the goal. We over complicated them.

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7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Is anyone surprised at that?

Italy started to overrun from halfway through the first half and it continued in the beginning of the second half.

Not all. Mr Southgate puts out negative teams. He takes modern coaching ideas and creates a outlier of a team. Who else plays a seven and three. His seven defenders and three forwards created virtually no chances in open play v Germany v Italy they created one. In both games they conceded midfield. Versus Italy a superior team England were over ran after thirty minutes and in the second half had 30% of the possession by choice of the Manager. His seven and three v Italy couldn't keep the football to keep Italy off them and one of his explosive attacking three was Mount, a player who is not dynamic when the team counter, even the transition to counter  attack was conservative. 

No surprises.

7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Is anyone surprised at that?

Italy started to overrun from halfway through the first half and it continued in the beginning of the second half.

Southgate waited ridiculously too long to make changes. Next idiocy, sending players on at the last minute "to take penalties".

It doesn't work.  If anyone has been watching the Cope D'America you'd have seen a game where Paraguay had to take penalties against Uruguay: they sent some bloke on as a sub and he completely ****** it up. Players need to have a number of touches to play into the game.  Sancho and Rashford barely touched the ball. And Rashford has been in terrible form for months.  Dead-ball specialist Calvert-Lewin was unused.

 

Bang on. I have done the penalties. Mr Southgate states he chose the takers. He chose the mindsets. Including young ones. 

 

7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

England will never get anywhere with Southgate in charge. 

We have the players. We simply do not have the brain to use them. 

England are getting somewhere but England do have the players to do differently. A change in philosophy is required.  Englands dna to quote the FA is power and strength, we have that and creativity. Mr Southgate is restraining both. History doesn't reveal successful (winners) teams who play like Southgates England of seven and three or his teams minus a creative talent on the pitch.  .

 

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31 minutes ago, Markman said:

Better Team  won - thought we were poor last night - Italy bossed us for 75 minutes and Gareth did not know how to change things - ET was a bit of a dirge  - life goes on

Which 75 mins did Italy boss? Thought we bossed the first half and neither team did a lot in ET.

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20 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Anyone mentioned how well Pickford played?

The save just before their goal and two pens as well. Fair play.

One of our best players of the tournament, made a number of very good saves in other games as well. I’d probably say top 3 for England as Shaw, Sterling, Pickford 

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