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England vs Italy. Is it coming home?


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2 hours ago, BigTone said:

Italy certainly bossed the 2nd half. All over us like a rash.

Still can't understand our complete change of tactics second half, did they really think we would keep a world class team like Italy from scoring when England just sat back and let them have the ball, baffling and frustrating and the less said about 3 of the penalties the better, don't know about you but to me there was an inevitability once it went to penalties  surely they could have found 3 more players that picked a side and hit it hard and low.

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2 minutes ago, big dosser said:

we have had a good tournament and the young lads will learn from this.one thing i will say is you can not right off a 34 and 36 year old centre half as chiellini and bonucci bloody outstanding, both no how to manage a game and are very clever in the dark arts of the game.

when chiellini new he was beat by saka he had no hesitation to grab him by the shirt and rip him to the ground some might call it cheating some may call it first class defending.this is something i hope np will bring in at city as we have been to soft over the years

on penalty's no ones to blame i scored goals for fun over the years but by god was i a shite penalty take always change my mind in the run up and missed 13 in my career 

I reckon you were just unlucky.... 

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6 minutes ago, big dosser said:

we have had a good tournament and the young lads will learn from this.one thing i will say is you can not right off a 34 and 36 year old centre half as chiellini and bonucci bloody outstanding, both no how to manage a game and are very clever in the dark arts of the game.

when chiellini new he was beat by saka he had no hesitation to grab him by the shirt and rip him to the ground some might call it cheating some may call it first class defending.this is something i hope np will bring in at city as we have been to soft over the years

on penalty's no ones to blame i scored goals for fun over the years but by god was i a shite penalty take always change my mind in the run up and missed 13 in my career 

And the team still chose you to take them?

Unless of course you were captain!

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3 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But who knows whether the fifth penalty will be important (or if it will even be necessary).  You have to put your best penalty taker first, and so on.

Common sense says you don't give the fifth penalty to such an inexperienced kid. It's not even a hindsight thing either, it was literally called out on here AT THE TIME. Personally, if he looked the dogs bollocks in training on pens, I would have stuck him up second. Fifth was just too much for him, the predictions were proven to be correct, he's 19 years of age, if we spent a few hours in his company I'm sure we would find him to be a lovely lad, a credit to his parents etc. but we would most likely also realise that he's not even grown up properly yet.

Even at international level there is a responsibility on the Manager to look after players of that age. Saka was clearly devastated, he's received racist abuse (not Southgate's fault obviously), he thinks he's lost England the Euro's, he probably won't get a good night's sleep for a fortnight now and then he's got to try and chill out for a couple of weeks before preparing for another season of Premiership football. Very unnecessarily lobbed under the bus by Southgate imo who does deserve criticism for that.

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When the squad was first announced, I was amazed Ward-Prowse was left out, especially with the bigger squads allowed for this tournament. He takes the best set piece in England IMO, and who better to bring off the bench specifically to take a pen? 

Last night feels like a massive opportunity slipped through our hands. Gutted for Rashford, Sancho and Saka. They don’t deserve the dog’s abuse they’re getting. 

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The penalty misses are a distraction from the way we went from looking a very good side at the start of the match to a rudderless ship by the end.

Whose fault was that, the players not being good enough to keep it up or the manager not being good enough to change tactics and players mid match?

Probably a combination of both.

No doubt in my mind that the best team won.

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1 hour ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

You have to give the ref your 5 and who’s where  before the penalties.

Is that still a thing? My apologies.

Still stand by it though. 

Remember seeing an interview with Bobby Robson many years ago (annoyingly I've never been able to find it on YouTube) where he said about the 4th penalty being the most important. Interview was about italia 90 and Stuart Pearce. Out of the shootout against West Germany, the penalty he was leased worried about was Pearce's because it just never crossed his mind that he'd miss. 

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3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Remember 1990 and 1996 - no fancy routines then, but we still lost.  The fact is that penalties are a lottery, and ultimately don’t decide which is the better side, they just find you a winner.

Exactly. the penalty takers last night were cocky and did not pay respect to the Italian goal keeper or the England shirt they worry. sorry but I have watched the penalties over and over again and they were soft and cocky 

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4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

"Never get anywhere"................isn't a first final in 55 years "somewhere"? Particularly when the team 2-3 players short in key areas as it stands today. Seems that perspective has been overtaken by disappointment on the back of this defeat.

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

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2 minutes ago, City oz said:

Exactly. the penalty takers last night were cocky and did not pay respect to the Italian goal keeper or the England shirt they worry. sorry but I have watched the penalties over and over again and they were soft and cocky 

Cant agree with you on that

The reason they missed the pen was not because they were cocky

it was the exact opposite They didnt show any bottle or self belief 

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4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

Everything around the penalties was poor by Southgate and I'm glad he took responsibility for that because it was his **** up. A 19 year old kid, just by virtue of what he is, will of course put themselves forward to take responsibility for a penalty that could be absolutely crucial. Unfortunately it was Southgates job to protect Saka from himself and order the penalties better because I guarantee you that Saka didn't have a clue what he had let himself in for until he was halfway through his walk to pick up the ball..............he ended up being the turkey who voted for Christmas, lamb to the slaughter, cannon fodder, call it what you will and it was all Southgates fault.

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7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Undoubtedly helped by being on the easier side of the draw.

Anyway, perhaps I should have written "never win anything" because though we have a talented team Southgate makes too many mistakes as a manager for me.

This was a talented side and it's a testimony to his work as a coach that they have developed the way they have. But a manager takes decisions. Waiting until after Italy scored to make subs to give us some forward momentum back was a poor decision. Taking off Henderson and bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take penalties was a poor decision. 

Took off Walker and Henderson with over 100 caps of experience and let two young, only just come on the pitch lads with about 30 caps with Rashford not  fully fit plus a 19 year old lad take the responsibility.That was a c..k up as was his to lste subs. 

Grealish has since said he was willing to take a pen.

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It really is such a disadvantage kicking second in a shootout. Wish they went back to the ABBA system as that seemed to produce more even results. Why did they get rid of it in the first place? If you win the toss you've won half the battle already IMO. All three shootouts in this tournament were won by the team kicking first and there is further evidence over the years to back this up.

Despite this however, Italy were clearly deserved winners over the course of the match and tournament as a whole. Congratulations to them. 

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But who knows whether the fifth penalty will be important (or if it will even be necessary).  You have to put your best penalty taker first, and so on.

If you’re taking a 5th penalty then it is going to be important 

4th and 5th penalties are the most important if you miss the 1st 2nd or 3rd there is always a way back. To put him 5th is insane no matter how he took them in training. The guy has never take a penalty in a game in his life.

hopefully Southgate learns from this. And hopefully he learns to make a change rather than waiting to concede first. Very lee Johnson esq for me.

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Sadly, classic England just falling short at the last. It's disappointing beyond belief that racist abuse has been aimed at Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka & Jadon Sancho, but equally sadly, utterly predictable. The sooner the owners of these social media platforms name and shame these individuals the better. And employers should be calling them out once identified and sacking them.

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

We'll never have a better opportunity to win a tournament in many of our lifetimes, and although the majority of his decisions seemed to bear fruit during the tournament, on this occasion Southgate got it badly wrong.

(reading now that the Marcus Rashford mural in Manchester has been defaced - not sure I could more sad and embarrassed right now).

The strength of character that these young men are going to have to rely on, along with support from family and friends, is beyond my wildest comprehension.

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2 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

100% agree. I read this morning Saka had never taken a penalty in his career. I don't care how good he looks in training, asking a 19 year old to take the 5th penalty in a final, when he has literally never taken one before is totally bonkers. Terrible management. 

Other than that im totally pissed off and just want to forget it. ******* England.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

It was so poor, that decision, and when Southgate reflects on it he will realise that. Unfortunately it's not Gareth getting the racist abuse on social media and Saka may take a few months to get over this (if he can get over it a lot quicker then fair play to the kid for having such strength of character). It's not even that Saka took a pen, if he showed up well in training at least give him the first or second one not the bloody fifth one.

I appreciate all hindsight now............but if i was Southgate, I would have advised my young penalty takers especially........ that Goalkeepers are desperate to be the hero's in Penalty shootouts, and so commit a large percentage of the time to diving Right or Left, so hit it hard straight down the middle, a couple of feet up.  Lineker alluded to it, and so have quite a few coaches, including my own youth coach?   The only pen that was executed like that by Italy, was successful.  To me it's commonsense, and has to be better than the three awful penalties that were missed?  NOT that i blame the young players involved, just the older heads who train them.

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35 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those slagging off my man Jack. He put himself forward. For whatever reason, Southgate once again chose not to trust him. 
 

 

Southgate said something to Grealish in the huddle and i thought he was saying to him what number pen he was taking. People like Keane need to wait before shouting their mouths off.

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36 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

Sadly, classic England just falling short at the last. It's disappointing beyond belief that racist abuse has been aimed at Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka & Jadon Sancho, but equally sadly, utterly predictable. The sooner the owners of these social media platforms name and shame these individuals the better. And employers should be calling them out once identified and sacking them.

Southgate has some questions to answer for his penalty selection, I see Jack Grealish has responded to SSN tweet, saying that he put himself forward as a pen taker. During the last mins of ET, it looked like Sancho and Rashford might not make it onto the pitch, if that had happened, which 2 remaining individuals would've put themselves forward?  Henderson and Walker both been in CL finals in recent years, hell even Pickford to take one. With Rashford and Sancho barely on the pitch long enough to get warm, then allowing them to step forward into the pressure cauldron seems like madness, then the unbearable pressure on young Saka's shoulders as he steps forward needing to score - utter folly.

We'll never have a better opportunity to win a tournament in many of our lifetimes, and although the majority of his decisions seemed to bear fruit during the tournament, on this occasion Southgate got it badly wrong.

(reading now that the Marcus Rashford mural in Manchester has been defaced - not sure I could more sad and embarrassed right now).

The strength of character that these young men are going to have to rely on, along with support from family and friends, is beyond my wildest comprehension.

Can’t for the life of me understand Southgate’s strategy 2nd half. We sat back and let them come at us FFS. Kane and Sterling were non existent 2nd half.

Then putting 2 kids on as subs with seconds to go, then asking them both to take penalties was nuts.
Bad decisions that cost the game. He will live to regret those decisions.

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53 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Yes!  What the hell was that little dance for, did he think he was going to put off their goalie by doing that? So stupid!

He did put the 'keeper off, he literally sent him the wrong way. It's just that his penalty was so shite he managed to miss an open goal from 12 yards out 

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As a footnote, Football CAME home. The last 18 months have been hell for millions of people and many of us have lost friends or family from Covid. This brave young England team have united the country, lifting hearts and minds as a result. Football and its ability to inspire is the real winner and hopefully that will all make us a healthier nation.

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1 minute ago, Curr Avon said:

As a footnote, Football CAME home. The last 18 months have been hell for millions of people and many of us have lost friends or family from Covid. This brave young England team have united the country, lifting hearts and minds as a result. Football and its ability to inspire is the real winner and hopefully that will all make us a healthier nation.

Sorry for your losses but that is just sentimental claptrap. We blew what is probably going to be our best opportunity to win something. 

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5 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

Can’t for the life of me understand Southgate’s strategy 2nd half. We sat back and let them come at us FFS. Kane and Sterling were non existent 2nd half.

Then putting 2 kids on as subs with seconds to go, then asking them both to take penalties was nuts.
Bad decisions that cost the game. He will live to regret those decisions.

I'd agree about Kane and Sterling, for as good as Sterling was in the previous games, he seemed to save his worst performance for the Final. Never seemed able to trouble the Italian duo of Bonucci and Chiellini, in fairness the midfield never had the ball for long enough to give him any service. And not sure if I heard Gary Lineker right on the BBC coverage after the game last night, but Kane didn't have a single touch in the Italian penalty area during the match - is that right?  If so, that's absolutely scandalous.

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