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Reality Bites - The Cupboard is Bare - Sell to Buy


Davefevs

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2 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Out of interest, who were the ‘pony’ players that Mark Ashton/Lee Johnson brought in? I’m talking permanent signings.

The reason I ask is that I seem to remember the team doing generally quite well under Lee Johnson. We were in the top 6 before the pandemic produced a unique set of circumstances. Last season, the team started quite well and was then massively undermined by injuries.

Our new manager’s record is appalling, so much so that even he expressed surprise at the fans’ vocal social media backing for him. He does, though, have the right to be given time because of the unique circumstances he found himself in and finds himself in.


Im just trying to sort out the emotion from the logic.

Ok, permanent signings only because if we dip into loan signings the results are considerably worse, and off the top of my head since 2016 when Mark Ashton came to the club we are looking at:

Andy Rolls (the worst signing ever made in the club's history bar absolutely none)

Marley Watkins (do you own £ per game calculation on him, I'm not doing it for you)

Liam Walsh (see above)

Gustav Engvall

Jens Hegeler

Milan Djuric

Mo Eisa (again, look what he did for US)

Sammie Smodiczs (ditto) 

Hakeeb Adelakun (another who works out at hundreds of thousands per game)

Rodri

Chris Brunt

Adrian Mariappa

Taylor Moore (been here about 5 years, when will we finally see a footballer?)

There are other more contentious players who contributed to the club like Fam and Paterson but, again, when you do the value for money calculation of output versus investment and wages versus return on disposal you start to think they weren't all that. There were a few high profile outgoings (Webster, Kelly, Bryan and Reid) that Teflon gets credit for and the truth is he only deserves credit in terms of identifying a good player and making a big profit for Webster (which has been eroded by the shit business above), the rest were our players before he ever came along.

Over the course of the last two seasons, if you use your football appreciation to see beyond just the results, the team have been consistent in terms of being outplayed in games and picking up results against all statistical logic, i.e. dogged determination to "hang in" games, never ever being on the front foot. I watched one "win" last season that was a total embarrassment to football where the opposition had 21 shots to our zero in the second half. As soon as a couple of the inevitable injuries came along we found out what our squad was all about last season and notwithstanding the avoidance of relegation thankfully I have no doubt we were easily one of the worst three teams in that league.

Of all the appointments Lansdown has made in his 20 years of relatively mediocre performance compared to the huge investment he has made and what other clubs like Swansea, Cardiff, Burnley, Huddersfield and Brentford have achieved there is no doubt in my mind that Mark Ashton is up there with the worst.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

It's difficult to replace like for like when you sell your best players. The trick is not to replace them with absolute pony and that was the area that Teflon's spreadsheet fell over. That man was a detestable bastard and the sooner he is out of football the better although it might be nice for a few gobshite Ipswich fans to have to suffer him for a while first.

Is this a slight hint that you’re not really a fan of Mark Ashton? 

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11 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Presumably Nige doesn't rate Piggot enough to sign him....or think he will improve us..... given he's free. I accept no player is free there being signing on fee and wages but coming from L1 he can't be that expensive and we have cut the wage bill already.

If Nige brings in a striker he will have pace....

That's somthing Piggot lacks...

I'd say he was 'pedestrian - he'd be a 'wow in the walking league.

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1 hour ago, harvey54 said:

Am I the only person that thinks that if Nige isn't given money to spend at some point in the next year he'll be off? If he has a reasonable season with us surely a bigger club will come for him?

I'm sure he's aware that our owner is one of the wealthiest men in the country and might expect him to open his wallet and try to get us to the Premier league one day. 

If Lansdown has any ambition at all, surely he'll know this? I know he's invested millions over the years and without him we'd be fubar but I don't know if Nige will hang around being fed freebies and playing kids. Only time will tell I suppose.

 Don’t see it that way at all.

He’ll see out his 3 year contract unless he’s sacked.

All this “get out his wallet” stuff is infantile, we have spent the money under the LJ regime & are now unable to due to a combination of the pandemic & FFP.

Lansdown talks repeatedly about the club being self sufficient, whilst that might be optimistic, there are simply few saleable assets left due to a combination of Ashton & Covid.

 I don’t know how long you have supported City & Lansdown may have made plenty of mistakes, but to question his ambition is simply insane.

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49 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Marley Watkins (do you own £ per game calculation on him, I'm not doing it for you)

Liam Walsh (see above)

Gustav Engvall

Jens Hegeler

Milan Djuric

Mo Eisa (again, look what he did for US)

Sammie Smodiczs (ditto) 

To provide balance Djuric & Szmodics were decent players...

Correctly utilised? - another story.

You can't account for injury(don't mention the hamstring papers)?.

And as for young Walsh??

Watch him tear it up for Swansea this season..

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2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

 Don’t see it that way at all.

He’ll see out his 3 year contract unless he’s sacked.

All this “get out his wallet” stuff is infantile, we have spent the money under the LJ regime & are now unable to due to a combination of the pandemic & FFP.

Lansdown talks repeatedly about the club being self sufficient, whilst that might be optimistic, there are simply few saleable assets left due to a combination of Ashton & Covid.

 I don’t know how long you have supported City & Lansdown may have made plenty of mistakes, but to question his ambition is simply insane.

He talked about sustainability then allowed Ashton to massively increase the wage bill. Then told us what a great job Ashton did.

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Just now, chinapig said:

He talked about sustainability then allowed Ashton to massively increase the wage bill. Then told us what a great job Ashton did.

In the bit where I said he had made “plenty of mistakes” letting Ashton run the whole show, (goodness knows what his son was doing) is at the very top of them..

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9 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

And many of us could see it very early on

Indeed some of us could….and wrote about incessantly (maybe too much) on OTIB.

30 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

To provide balance Djuric & Szmodics were decent players...

Correctly utilised? - another story.

You can't account for injury(don't mention the hamstring papers)?.

And as for young Walsh??

Watch him tear it up for Swansea this season..

I guess it comes to how you deem a signing as good or bad?  Doesn’t matter if they are the best player in the world for their previous or future club, we can only really define success from their time here….and then that’s still difficult.  I try to do it on two lenses, a) performances on the pitch versus expectation and b) value for money.  Some maybe good on the pitch but we lost money on them, others the opposite. It’s not easy.  I did my list of the 60+ and of the ones we signed permanently very few came out with a tick in both boxes

If I try and do it without bias I suspect many of our signings fall into the middling rating, neither good nor bad.  For me, with the resources we have (financially and our alleged world class recruitment process and people) I expect much better than that, so in that respect our recruitment failed.  And it’s now hamstringing (the irony) our ability to recruit going forward.  The recruitment “collective” that heavily included Ashton and Johnson should not be looked on in a good light in that element of their roles.  Johnson deserves credit for on the pitch stuff (in the main) though.

I’m looking forward to seeing what Walsh does at Swansea, also Szmodics at Peterborough.

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I'm not too concerned by this. I think it's guaranteed we will lose Kalas and we should be able to get a good price for him, plus there are a lot of free agents. Weather the free agents will be of the standard we are looking for is a different matter, but there is always an unknown gem to find. I have every faith in Nigel and his contacts that the right players can be signed.

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Nige said five to six windows to build what he wants so you have to assume that there is a spending plan that matches that timeframe. If there wasn't then it would be as stupid for Pearson to take the job as it would be for Lansdown not to have the financial plan in that timeframe.

That’s how I see it too. Lansdown has at last got a proven, experienced manager and he will expect him to manage. He has always backed his managers and I don’t see him not doing so now. Nigel will want to do a good job, he will get the best out of the players he has got but will want (need) to add new faces too.

I get the feeling he won’t be wasteful, that must have been heavily talked about at interview etc. Not sure who we really have of any value to sell, no Webster, Brownhill type player stands out. Maybe Massengo or the injured Semenyo? Unless Kalas and Nage have turned some heads at the Euros of course?

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I can't believe no one else has suggested that this "have to sell before we buy" could just be smoke and mirrors to try to reduce the asking price somewhere. It's plausible, and yes we are aiming for self-sustainability, but also, and as has been mentioned, SL has always backed his managers, and where there's a will there's a way, FFP be damned. 

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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, different starting place this season, and there’s no way we could recruit like we did in 19/20 when we spent £25m on transfer fees alone.  Madness.  Let alone wage bill increase etc.

⬇️⬇️⬇️

⬆️⬆️⬆️ Because they pissed the money earned off the back of previous recruitment and Academy up the wall.  Boy are we paying for that.  Like kids in a sweet shop.

Yes we are Dave pity lansdown never backed cotts like he backed johnson who knows where we would have been ?

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4 minutes ago, Porto Red said:

I can't believe no one else has suggested that this "have to sell before we buy" could just be smoke and mirrors to try to reduce the asking price somewhere. It's plausible, and yes we are aiming for self-sustainability, but also, and as has been mentioned, SL has always backed his managers, and where there's a will there's a way, FFP be damned. 

FFP be damned? Has Mel Morris taken us over?

Though Steve did say Pearson would be backed he didn't actually specify how. Now it's clear he didn't mean giving him much money to spend. Rightly so given our financial position.

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2 hours ago, harvey54 said:

I'm sure he's aware that our owner is one of the wealthiest men in the country and might expect him to open his wallet

Which part of FFP don’t people understand ?

Wealthy owners can no longer just buy their way to the top aka Jack Walker for Blackburn.

Every manager at every club has to work within boundaries ( except Derby , they do what they want) .

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Im happy so far, we've reduced the wage bill with players leaving, our wage bill was way over the top.

We've got Nigel Pearson and Dave Rennie in.

Good signings to stabilise the spine of the team and we are slowly being built from the back.

We are aiming for the Premier league but it will take time to build both the club and the team.

Baby steps but we are moving forward at last, we've gone backwards for 2 odd years, let the building work begin..

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Indeed some of us could….and wrote about incessantly (maybe too much) on OTIB.

So many discussions trying to make sense of the situation. It’s right to question, one isn't always correct but things need to be discussed ?

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Ok, permanent signings only because if we dip into loan signings the results are considerably worse, and off the top of my head since 2016 when Mark Ashton came to the club we are looking at:

Andy Rolls (the worst signing ever made in the club's history bar absolutely none)

Marley Watkins (do you own £ per game calculation on him, I'm not doing it for you)

Liam Walsh (see above)

Gustav Engvall

Jens Hegeler

Milan Djuric

Mo Eisa (again, look what he did for US)

Sammie Smodiczs (ditto) 

Hakeeb Adelakun (another who works out at hundreds of thousands per game)

Rodri

Chris Brunt

Adrian Mariappa

Taylor Moore (been here about 5 years, when will we finally see a footballer?)

There are other more contentious players who contributed to the club like Fam and Paterson but, again, when you do the value for money calculation of output versus investment and wages versus return on disposal you start to think they weren't all that. There were a few high profile outgoings (Webster, Kelly, Bryan and Reid) that Teflon gets credit for and the truth is he only deserves credit in terms of identifying a good player and making a big profit for Webster (which has been eroded by the shit business above), the rest were our players before he ever came along.

Over the course of the last two seasons, if you use your football appreciation to see beyond just the results, the team have been consistent in terms of being outplayed in games and picking up results against all statistical logic, i.e. dogged determination to "hang in" games, never ever being on the front foot. I watched one "win" last season that was a total embarrassment to football where the opposition had 21 shots to our zero in the second half. As soon as a couple of the inevitable injuries came along we found out what our squad was all about last season and notwithstanding the avoidance of relegation thankfully I have no doubt we were easily one of the worst three teams in that league.

Of all the appointments Lansdown has made in his 20 years of relatively mediocre performance compared to the huge investment he has made and what other clubs like Swansea, Cardiff, Burnley, Huddersfield and Brentford have achieved there is no doubt in my mind that Mark Ashton is up there with the worst.

I completely agree about Watkins, Engvall and Brunt. Awful. Some of those you mention had injuries, which blurs things a little. Rodri was poor but he was only on a short-term contract because of a striker shortage. Mariappa only came in to fill a gap left by injuries - options were limited at the time because his signing was outside the transfer window 
I think there are always going to be signings that don’t work. 
Eisa and Szmodics were only here for a year and the club made their money back - a profit, I think on Szmodics.

I’m not sure the ledger against Ashton is quite as damning as you suggest. Certainly not against Lee Johnson, although some of the performances in his final season were dire. 

I don’t mind that MA has gone but I’m sceptical the new regime will be a vast improvement. Will NP have us finishing as high as 8th in the next three years? Will he even last three years? 

 

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3 hours ago, harvey54 said:

Fingers crossed

Nothing to worry about. NP realises he has a fantastic chance to build a squad from scratch more or less. SL has always backed managers financially when possible. With the facilities we have in place , there’s no way way he’d be looking to leave. Plus he’s a man of integrity . 

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4 hours ago, weepywall said:

And unbelievably lucky to still be in the Championship.

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. If we'd have got relegated (and we basically deserved to) then we'd be in freefall right now. We look like we've done enough to stop the rot (lucky for us Ashton walked), but there can be few mis-steps on the road to recovery. The type of player we're signing give me encouragement. We need the Wade Elliott and Aaron Wilbraham types before the fancy dan types. I don't expect them all to work out (they nevert do), but it's a good start. Bit worried on the striker front, but if Wells decides to show up, I'll be less concerned.

The goals are going to be realistic this season, but if we can maximise our potential, bringing a couple of the youngsters through properly, we'll do alright, and apart from a few deluded fans, we'll be reasonably happy to avoid a relegation fight.

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Looking at the recent robins uncut video. This looked like how Nige had the 2 teams set up.

             Wiles-Richards

Simpson Moore  Baker Pring  

          Massengo  Scott 

 Pearson       King    O'Dowda                                                                                                                Martin 

 

                    O'Leary 

    Vyner  Nurse Towler Dasilva 

               James Bakinson

     Edwards  Weimann  Palmer

                      Conway 

 

Probably doesn't mean too much! But just thought I'd post it somewhere. 

Atkinson I guess wasn't quite ready for playing whenever that was filmed. No idea why Bentley wasn't taking part.

That’s about putting players against others and seeing how they up to the challenge.  Good to see, although Gregor suggested 2x 433s…not that it makes much difference at this stage.

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57 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

I don’t mind that MA has gone but I’m sceptical the new regime will be a vast improvement. Will NP have us finishing as high as 8th in the next three years? Will he even last three years? 

But Pearson isn't starting from the same place as Johnson, so the comparison doesn't make sense. 

Johnson was given millions upon millions to spend, Pearson takes over in a completely different financial climate.

Johnson was able to sell Kodjia for £11 million and replace him with Tammy Abraham. Pearson has been forced to consider Third Division centre forwards. 

Johnson had the room to bring in 25 players - 25! - over the course of his first full season. Pearson is in a straight jacket and has managed 4 with little prospect of many more. 

Pearson hasn't inherited a team with a solid base, a squad built on promotion winning champions. He's inherited a squad where half the players have been kicked out and the remaining half were either utterly woeful or injured for most the last season.

If both inherited similar squads with similar capacity for signings, I know which one I'd be backing to finish highest - it would be the one who's got a proven record of actually winning things and achieving success, not the one full of hot air who's achieved sweet fa.

I'd be putting my house on the one who's walked the walk, not the one who's done nothing but talk the talk. 

    

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1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

I completely agree about Watkins, Engvall and Brunt. Awful. Some of those you mention had injuries, which blurs things a little. Rodri was poor but he was only on a short-term contract because of a striker shortage. Mariappa only came in to fill a gap left by injuries - options were limited at the time because his signing was outside the transfer window 
I think there are always going to be signings that don’t work. 
Eisa and Szmodics were only here for a year and the club made their money back - a profit, I think on Szmodics.

I’m not sure the ledger against Ashton is quite as damning as you suggest. Certainly not against Lee Johnson, although some of the performances in his final season were dire. 

I don’t mind that MA has gone but I’m sceptical the new regime will be a vast improvement. Will NP have us finishing as high as 8th in the next three years? Will he even last three years? 

 

Do you think we made a small profit on either of those two after paying wages? How much per game did they cost us. The club exists to succeed on the football field in as cost efficient a manner as they can, not make small profit on the transfer fees of players who barely saw the light of day in a first team shirt.

If we go into the medical, fitness and conditioning side of things, the whole off field recruitment side of things, include the large number of nonsensical short term loan deals, the statement pushed out on Sky TV during a game about Fam being offered a Kings Ransom whilst the rest of the lads could do one if they wanted a new contract which ALMOST but not quite got us relegated (no, won't ever forget that one) and the ledger against Ashton only gets worse, not better.

The Manager who had us finishing mid-table playing counter attacking football both home and away did have to sell his best players, totally agree, but was also given money to spend that no other Bristol City Manager, including Nigel Pearson, has ever had available to them. Accepting that Manager did a decent job overall then it is also worth noting that Lee Johnson states he "could write a book" outlining the goings on during his time here with Ashton at the helm.

Nigel has said it in not so many words, he inherited an absolute mess, a complete joke of a football club, another term for it is "basket case" and the people solely responsible for that are Ashton and the Owner who allowed him to get us in that situation. Get paid £500K per annum and it's your cock on the block, simple as that. I think it's fantastic that a Manager with Pearson's record is prepared to come here and work to a very strict budget and if he isn't given time then Basket Case City and it's benefactor goes off on one again........................

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3 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

To provide balance Djuric & Szmodics were decent players...

Correctly utilised? - another story.

You can't account for injury(don't mention the hamstring papers)?.

And as for young Walsh??

Watch him tear it up for Swansea this season..

To be fair I'm not saying every player we signed was rubbish. That's not true. We simply haven't got close to approaching value for money in terms of both on-pitch benefit and returns on disposal for far too many of them. Three of our best four returns on disposal were Academy players who were all in the system before Ashton got here. Webster was a huge success, an excellent investment, I agree......so that's one then. The club has been mismanaged since the appointment of the previous CEO until his departure......in my opinion. 

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I'd be surprised if Nige went to SL wanting a particular striker, one that had been on his wanted list from the start, that maybe cost a fee, that SL wouldn't back him; despite what's been said. 

I think it's more about not being frivolous and maybe getting a couple off the wage bill, a few out on loan and yeah if possible selling the correct player/s.

I believe SL will back NP, maybe not in the way he let that little idiot waste money hand over fist.

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3 hours ago, pongo88 said:

Is this a slight hint that you’re not really a fan of Mark Ashton? 

Correct!! That said, he's history so nothing to worry about.

Let's be honest about this, though, had there been fans attending Ashton Gate last season you would have seen the most toxic atmosphere EVER projected at Ashton Gate. That isn't even be up for discussion. It might have even got as far as Ashton staying away from the ground for his own safety/sanity I'm afraid to say given the form of a small number of our fans....................read the posts from 6 months ago and tell me I'm wrong, time is probably healing the situation for many who may have forgotten how miserable so many people felt.

I just hope people give Pearson the time he needs.

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