Waconda Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Have thought about this before but last night it confirmed my theory. In International tournaments have your 3rd choice keeper a specialist penalty saver and bring him on in the 118th minute The Italian was 6'5" and looked like he was going to save every penalty, his presence more they anything forced those misses IMO. You could have a (lower league even) giant keeper who is then intensively drilled in facing penalties. He would be far more likely to be used and useful in a shoot out than actually needing to play after 2 keeper injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, VT05763 said: Have thought about this before but last night it confirmed my theory. In International tournaments have your 3rd choice keeper a specialist penalty saver and bring him on in the 118th minute The Italian was 6'5" and looked like he was going to save every penalty, his presence more they anything forced those misses IMO. You could have a (lower league even) giant keeper who is then intensively drilled in facing penalties. He would be far more likely to be used and useful in a shoot out than actually needing to play after 2 keeper injuries. Interesting idea……but ask the question why it’s not been done before by international teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 I’m not sure that end was our issue. Pickford did well. The other end was the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waconda Posted July 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Robbored said: Interesting idea……but ask the question why it’s not been done before by international teams? There is always the worry that you will need your 3rd keeper to play I suppose and it would be a brave decision to do it. But on balance of probability it has to be worth it IMO. I think some teams will be looking at it for the future. You could also have a couple of outfield players who are only ever used in a penalty shoot out situation as the match day squads are so large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, VT05763 said: Have thought about this before but last night it confirmed my theory. In International tournaments have your 3rd choice keeper a specialist penalty saver and bring him on in the 118th minute The Italian was 6'5" and looked like he was going to save every penalty, his presence more they anything forced those misses IMO. You could have a (lower league even) giant keeper who is then intensively drilled in facing penalties. He would be far more likely to be used and useful in a shoot out than actually needing to play after 2 keeper injuries. Why? Pickford saved 2 pens, that's a good return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Rojo Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Why not just spend the training time/effort developing your 'normal' keeper to make him the specialist? Appreciate the height might be lacking for Pickford but then brining on a 'cold keeper' just for penalties might result in the same problems we saw last night with Sancho and Rashford. Also, I don't think the keeper was the area where we have problems last night. I think Pickford did well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 It’s not actually a new idea https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/28180956.amp This is Tim Krul vs Costa Rica in 2014. Brought on 120 minutes, saved 2 in the shootout. So, special teams - but same result as Pickford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 It's not our keeper that is the problem. Outfield players need to be drilled in taking penalties. Rashfords run up and little dance half way was a recipe for disaster. Just keep it simple. In saying that he had the guts to come forward and take one and can only learn from experience. I felt sorry for Sako because he looked like a rabbit caught in your car headlights before he even started. Same again though that he had the guts to have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Martin O’Neill did it in a League Cup final, with a 6ft 8 keeper (Kalac) for Leicester, ironically his team scored a 119th minute winner straight after he brought him on & so his theory never got tested. As others have said though, Pickford wasn’t the issue, he might be short for a keeper but he saved 2/5, missing three on the spin was the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 50 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: I’m not sure that end was our issue. Pickford did well. The other end was the issue. Yes, the two players brought on in the last minute of extra time just to take penalties both missed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, pongo88 said: Yes, the two players brought on in the last minute of extra time just to take penalties both missed Southgate said post match that the chosen penalty takers was based on practice in training. However what’s impossible to replicate is the immense pressure faced when walking the 40 or so yards up to the penalty spot. Shearer said this morning that it’s longest walk imaginable and he would know. Its way too cruel to point the finger at those who missed their penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Pickford did really well last night in the penalties. Saving two should have been enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Watts Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, Robbored said: Southgate said post match that the chosen penalty takers was based on practice in training. However what’s impossible to replicate is the immense pressure faced when walking the 40 or so yards up to the penalty spot. Shearer said this morning that it’s longest walk imaginable and he would know. Its way too cruel to point the finger at those who missed their penalties. If Sancho and Rashford were taking penalties like that in training they should never have been near the list of takers. I think the issue people have with those who missed the penalties was not the fact they missed, but the way they took them. Saka was unfortunate. A lot of pressure for such a young lad, but he stepped up and hit it. It wasn't the greatest hit, and was a perfect height and pace for someone of Donna Summers height, but at least he didn't fart arse around with it. If you're gonna be a dick taking a penalty then you'd better make sure you score it otherwise you're opening yourself up to criticism. Was it Big Ron who said he'd never criticise a player for having a penalty save it you just hit it down the middle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 It’s quite interesting even at non-pro levels when you get to penalty shoot outs. Sometimes the players you think would be the first to step-up are in fact the ones who take one step-back, are head down / no eye contact when the manager is asking for volunteers. You want people who are confident, then you need a bit of luck too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 55 minutes ago, BigTone said: It's not our keeper that is the problem. Outfield players need to be drilled in taking penalties. Rashfords run up and little dance half way was a recipe for disaster. Just keep it simple. In saying that he had the guts to come forward and take one and can only learn from experience. I felt sorry for Sako because he looked like a rabbit caught in your car headlights before he even started. Same again though that he had the guts to have a go. I don't see that having the "guts to have a go" has any value. Southgate given his history should have been drilling them mercilessly in penalty taking and had the full listing in order ready for a shoot out in order to take as much emotion out of it as possible. If Sako was that nervous he should not have been taking it and that is entirely down to Southgate to recognise that and replace him. I am not having a go at Sako or the other two that missed. The blame lies squarely with Southgate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said: I don't see that having the "guts to have a go" has any value. Southgate given his history should have been drilling them mercilessly in penalty taking and had the full listing in order ready for a shoot out in order to take as much emotion out of it as possible. If Sako was that nervous he should not have been taking it and that is entirely down to Southgate to recognise that and replace him. I am not having a go at Sako or the other two that missed. The blame lies squarely with Southgate. I quite agree and Southgate has said the same. Southgate decided who took the penalties and planned in advance - it was not in any way a case of players having the guts to step up or not. 1 hour ago, Steve Watts said: If Sancho and Rashford were taking penalties like that in training they should never have been near the list of takers. I think the issue people have with those who missed the penalties was not the fact they missed, but the way they took them. Saka was unfortunate. A lot of pressure for such a young lad, but he stepped up and hit it. It wasn't the greatest hit, and was a perfect height and pace for someone of Donna Summers height, but at least he didn't fart arse around with it. If you're gonna be a dick taking a penalty then you'd better make sure you score it otherwise you're opening yourself up to criticism. Was it Big Ron who said he'd never criticise a player for having a penalty save it you just hit it down the middle? Worth mentioning Sancho is younger than a lot of City players we think of “young players”. I think it a bit unfair Saka is being excused on grounds of age but Sancho not. For me, Rashford is the only one who should justifiably feel disappointed with himself. As you say, the way he took it gave him nowhere to hide when he missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Fordy62 said: I’m not sure that end was our issue. Pickford did well. The other end was the issue. Yeah - Pickford must have saved the same number as the Italian keeper. Difference is that all their players hit the target and one of ours did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said: I don't see that having the "guts to have a go" has any value. Southgate given his history should have been drilling them mercilessly in penalty taking and had the full listing in order ready for a shoot out in order to take as much emotion out of it as possible. If Sako was that nervous he should not have been taking it and that is entirely down to Southgate to recognise that and replace him. I am not having a go at Sako or the other two that missed. The blame lies squarely with Southgate. Blame? It's sport. Someone wins someone loses. The bad stuff happened outside and on social media. That's where blame should be put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readie14 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Unfortunately if I remember rightly Darrell Clarke did it in the non league play off final, changed the keeper in extra time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Was actually thinking about the other side of penalty taking this morning and visualisation of taking penalties on the big stages. By no means a solution, but wondering whether the use of VR could/has been used for helping players visualise that walk up and spot kick. Surprising how visually & audibly accurate these VR headsets can be. Would have thought going through that multiple times before a game would remove a little bit of that sensual overload that players must face. Obviously you can never replicate that same dreaded feeling and pressure on your shoulders that you'd get from knockout football. Has anyone thought about this or heard it being done elsewhere? Anyone reckon it would actually help in any way? I can imagine a lot of people will think it's a load of modern technological bollocks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Robbored said: Southgate said post match that the chosen penalty takers was based on practice in training. However what’s impossible to replicate is the immense pressure faced when walking the 40 or so yards up to the penalty spot. Shearer said this morning that it’s longest walk imaginable and he would know. Its way too cruel to point the finger at those who missed their penalties. Exactly this...plus the pressure mounts even more if it's for England. We have history and expectation of losing them. I can't imagine the pressure those young players felt, with a whole nation depending on them. Thousands at the ground watching. I've experienced playing Competition Cup final golf tournaments, where your name is announced on the tee, with a few hundred watching. You can hear a pin drop, all eyes on you, just you. You literally turn to jelly, nothing can prepare you for it, apart from practice and making it mechanical. Your heart pumps, you sweat, you shake, you can hear your heart beat in your ears, and every move feels weak and less controllable. I can imagine it was a thousand times worse in front of a whole nation. The feeling must be so intense and unbearable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Didn’t Bobby Robson once say he’d considered substituting Peter Shilton with Dave Beasant in the last minute of extra time in our World Cup semi final vs West Germany in 1990 as he was better at saving pens? I may have dreamt this, so apologies if it’s incorrect, but if there is any sort of grain of truth in it, things might have been so different if he’d gone ahead and done it ... I think having a specialist ‘pen-saving’ keeper in reserve can only be a positive thing when fine margins become so important ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
054123 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 No problem with the keeper. The simple fact is we missed three. So much nonsense around beating the keeper. Just score the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy_Giefer Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 I thought we’d worked meticulously on penalties but they’re so unpredictable they can’t ever be relied upon. I would like to see us change our mentality and try to win at all costs before it gets that far. We never really went for it last night. The safe, solid approach was great and it got us to the final but we should’ve tried to step up a gear in extra time. Bring on more attackers, go long or do whatever you can to avoid penalties. If the other team beats you on the break then it’s better than another penalty defeat and more players living with the trauma for the rest of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBW Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Great and all but this tournament was an outlier of using so many subs in one game. We're used to seeing only three subs and over the course of 120 minutes should expect three to be used in that time. Also, most competition won't have a bench of 37 substitutes so having two goalkeepers on a seven-man bench would be moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon bristol Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 I think i suggested yesterday that rashford sancho and sakas goal threat all tournament has been practically zero, and as the most experienced of those 3 rashford has been most disappointing. Getting those 3 to take penalties was a very poor decision, id rather have seen some of the others, like stones and shaw who had played the game step up and smash it. still, as soon as it went to penalties, it was written in the stars, everyone knew what was going to happen, and so did the players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Watts Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said: I quite agree and Southgate has said the same. Southgate decided who took the penalties and planned in advance - it was not in any way a case of players having the guts to step up or not. Worth mentioning Sancho is younger than a lot of City players we think of “young players”. I think it a bit unfair Saka is being excused on grounds of age but Sancho not. For me, Rashford is the only one who should justifiably feel disappointed with himself. As you say, the way he took it gave him nowhere to hide when he missed. Sancho wasn't asked to take arguably the most crucial penalty of them all. And after setting himself he just ran up and hit the ball. I'd have more sympathy with Sancho had he taken a proper penalty. He didn't. He fart arsed around. That wasn't nerves, it was cockiness.....maybe I'll be kind and call it youthful exuberance. But I think Saka being excused on grounds of age and Sancho not, considering the extra pressure on Saka's penalty (score and stay in it, miss and the match is lost) is fair in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 On 12/07/2021 at 14:09, Simon bristol said: I think i suggested yesterday that rashford sancho and sakas goal threat all tournament has been practically zero, and as the most experienced of those 3 rashford has been most disappointing. Getting those 3 to take penalties was a very poor decision, id rather have seen some of the others, like stones and shaw who had played the game step up and smash it. still, as soon as it went to penalties, it was written in the stars, everyone knew what was going to happen, and so did the players Rashford is a penalty taker so absolutely should have taken one. Shaw scored a penalty in the Europa League final shoot out a few weeks ago so has had a recent success and should've been further up the list. The others with experience in previous shoot outs were Sterling and Pickford. The other issue I had was the order. The longer a shoot out goes on the more the pressure increases. Maybe would've been better to leave Kane till 3rd or 4th penalty and get Saka taking an earlier one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 On 12/07/2021 at 09:07, BigTone said: It's not our keeper that is the problem. Outfield players need to be drilled in taking penalties. Rashfords run up and little dance half way was a recipe for disaster. Just keep it simple. In saying that he had the guts to come forward and take one and can only learn from experience. I felt sorry for Sako because he looked like a rabbit caught in your car headlights before he even started. Same again though that he had the guts to have a go. Why was it? Rashford has scored penalties like that before, its his style same as JETs was his Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, MarcusX said: Why was it? Rashford has scored penalties like that before, its his style same as JETs was his Look at the end result maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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