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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


OneCity

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26 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Southgate is not a fraud. He’s taken England to their first major final in 55 years and was unfortunate to lose on penalties to the Italians.

I dont believe the loss was just unfortunate, the second half options were very poor because Kane and Sterling were not up to it, the manager just waited for the inevitable to happen - 5 shots in the 90 and only one was from a forward says it all , the players available were not used in a timely manner.

Come penalties he lumped the pressure on 2 young black players who were in their first international final and knew they would suffer a huge backlash if they failed - in my book a huge opportunity wasted by poor decisions from Southgate 

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18 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

What do you bloody know,expect you were over arming bowls down the green while the game was on 

I watched all the England matches and was home in time yesterday to watch the entire final so don’t ask me what I know.

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He obviously deserves to keep his job for the next world cup.. but I do have some nagging doubts about him. I appreciate that's really unfair given what he's achieved relative to his predecessors.

There doesn't seem to be that many outstanding English managers that are potential replacements. 

If we didn't just look at English managers I think both Brendan Rogers and Marco Bielsa would be really interesting appointments. 

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I would say don't change on the basis the world cup is ~15 months away, don't change that close unless you're international form is horrid even before taking anything into account about Southgate such as semi final then final at major tournaments. However there are some serious areas of Southgate's management that need addressing.

  • We have the most talented squad I think we've ever had and its attacking potential is immense, Southgate needs to loosen the reigns a bit to allow attacking play, I know he's a defensive minded coach so conflicts with how he wants a team to set up but we could miss out on a great generation of players if we don't allow attacking football. How a player like Jadon Sancho whose had the couple of seasons he's had can get so little football at a major competition is perplexing.
  • His use of substitutions I've found to be fairly poor, Grealish showed when he came on that fresh legs were adding something yet he didn't add more players, only making 3 subs (?) before Rashford/Sancho right at the end. Who knows what Sancho/Rashford could have done with 10-15 minutes on the pitch, especially when you had CB's as old as Chiellini and Bonucci who were both carded

So Southgate should at least stay for the world cup because of how close it is but I think his position should be reviewed at that point. I think England football should operate how England cricket's ODI team did, they planned a 4 year cycle in the build up to the world cup we won, decided the brand of cricket they wanted to play and picked players who fit that. Frankly I think the Euros (while still taken seriously) should be used as a measuring stick for how well our preparations for the world cup are coming on. If the plan for the 4 year cycle is Southgate's brand of defensive minded football then we need to commit to it as much as I'd love attacking intent with the players at his disposal. 2 goals conceded in 7 games is no mean feat when we've played Croatia, Germany, Italy and a very good Denmark side.

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

He obviously deserves to keep his job for the next world cup.. but I do have some nagging doubts about him. I appreciate that's really unfair given what he's achieved relative to his predecessors.

There doesn't seem to be that many outstanding English managers that are potential replacements. 

If we didn't just look at English managers I think both Brendan Rogers and Marco Bielsa would be really interesting appointments. 

He needs to be judged on what he has available, probably the most talented pool of players to pick a squad from that we've ever had. St George's park as lauded by many to the contribution of how England have gotten better. The EPPP system as much as fans hate it seems to be working in terms of developing players for the England squad and this is the first generation of players coming through from that. As all this comes together expectations should be higher. Its the obvious comparison but I don't want this to divert off to a whole other argument, you can compare Southgate with England vs former managers with Johnson at City vs former managers. Had facilities/funds/players whatever that former managers didn't have and the expectation grows as the resources the coach has increase. 

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We got to the finals of a major tournament for the first time in years because our manager got it right more often than not. He also brought a togetherness to the team that I haven't seen for such a long time. And I would hope the players themselves might persuade him to stay on and continue. As I get the feeling he's their popular choice. Let's not forget the vastly experienced Italian side also missed 2 penalties. And I'm sure the so called racist backlash by the English white neanderthals will miss its mark, as these kids will have experienced similar for much of their young lives unfortunately. 

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First off, really hard to get rid after a semi final and final appearance in back to back tournaments. 
 

Secondly, who do you get? Do they have to be English? 
 

I want to say get rid. Unbelievably feel the side has underperformed. That said, I can’t come up with viable English options. 

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During my lifetime there have been a total of eighteen England managers (inclusive of those in caretaker roles). Only one has succeeded in winning a major tournament. 

Might I suggest that we look forward to a time when this country can produce players good enough to win another tournament?.

Of course there are some good English players, we've consistently produced them. But not enough of them are or have been good enough to compete at international level with the best nations.

I don't see the point in sacking Southgate because England have still to win only their second major tournament. 

Manager number 19 will come along at some point, and I gaurantee, yes even it were Pep, he will be no more successful than Southgate and still less successful than Ramsay. 

This is England. We're pretty good actually. But we're also well short of a lot of other international sides. 

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Get rid, last nights decisions showed he learnt nothing from the Croatia defeat, this is the best set of players we’ve had for years but I don’t think they’ll reach their full potential with a typically English negative coach, no idea what the alternative is though particularly if we went for a home grown manager, Rogers is Irish ☘️ and plays decent football, the Brighton guy might be a long shot, they play some great stuff with limited resources.

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Did he deserve the job? No. 

Has he done well? Yes. 

Do I think he gets the best of out the squad? No. 

Do I think there are other managers out there who’d do better? Yes. 

Would it be unfair to sack him? Yes. 

I feel sacking him would be a little like when Southampton sacked Atkins. He was doing well, but they saw past it and wanted to progress. 

I think that’s about where I stand. I think there’s better out there, the million dollar question is who…

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2 hours ago, dave36 said:

Come penalties he lumped the pressure on 2 young black players who were in their first international final and knew they would suffer a huge backlash if they failed - in my book a huge opportunity wasted by poor decisions from Southgate 

Wrong. He picked the 5 players who'd been most successful when they'd practised them during training. And I very much doubt he noticed the colour of anyone's skin while doing so.

"For England to win at penalties we need blokes called 'Arry and some black lads" doesn't sound like Southgate to me. 

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Was in a lot of credit for me. Seems a nice bloke, good ambassador and proved me wrong on several players/formations (not that difficult) plus got us through to a final - all be it at home, with a relatively easy pathway. 

Last night though proved to me that while he’s pretty decent, he’s not truly in the top echelons of international football management. His inability to adapt during the game, choice of the last 3 penalty takers, just showed a lack of  footballing nouse which an experienced winner-of-trophies manager would have.

Maybe he has earned sufficient credit to have a pop at the World Cup - but not expecting he’ll deliver that either - after which he needs to be moved on. 

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8 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I'm torn.

I love him as a person, he gets it. He understands the England fans, he shows quality leadership most of the time and has knitted together what looks like a very good team spirit which must be difficult when you are regularly leaving big players out of the team. How many players could be excused for being unhappy about their game time? Chilwell, Mings, Sancho, Foden, Rashford, Grealish could all be really unhappy but it doesn't show.

That said, he's not faultless and he's made some very strange decisions. I dont think any of us can understand Saka being given the 5th penalty, esepecially if Grealish wanted one. I dont believe he's just plucked that out of the air in the moment, he'd have had a plan and it would have been discussed who would take penalties. However, it still seems extremely odd to bring two players on who barely had time to get warm, and then give a decisive penalty to such a young man.

I felt he waited too long to make changes, Saka was probably the wrong one as he looked lost. Grealish should have been on sooner, Sancho too probably.

Who do we replace him with? THat's the key question for me. I think Southgate would love the chance to make up for his errors and take us to that next step and it looks like the FA are sticking with him. We have to back him if he's staying

He made a lot of decisions that I thought were strange through the tournament. And in all but one, I think he was proven right and i was wrong. The one I still think he got wrong was the change of formation in final - worrying too much about opposition and not focussing on our strengths and playing 433. We were getting overrun in midfield and he should have made change but, given how comfortable we looked at back despite all the Italian possession, would have taken a brave man to change shape while winning.

The penalties are meh. Penalty shootouts arent really part of football and entirely dependent on mental strength of players. Manager cant influence that too much. He tried something, it didnt work. But it doesn't speak much to his tactical accumen or lack of. 

By and large, he has had an exceptional tournament, we've played well throughout - except scotland - and controlled games. We never do this. We never get to finals, even when we have had exceptional squads. To dismiss that as pure luck, over entirely down to players.. I just can't understand. The evidence is pretty obviously that he's doing a great job and is himself developing. Hopefully he learns from final and will be a little less cautious. But not a doubt in my mind that he should now take us through to the World Cup next year.

 

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2 hours ago, Lrrr said:

He needs to be judged on what he has available, probably the most talented pool of players to pick a squad from that we've ever had. St George's park as lauded by many to the contribution of how England have gotten better. The EPPP system as much as fans hate it seems to be working in terms of developing players for the England squad and this is the first generation of players coming through from that. As all this comes together expectations should be higher. Its the obvious comparison but I don't want this to divert off to a whole other argument, you can compare Southgate with England vs former managers with Johnson at City vs former managers. Had facilities/funds/players whatever that former managers didn't have and the expectation grows as the resources the coach has increase. 

But we can judge him on what he has available. He has a good squad and he got to the final. Surely no one is saying that winning the tournament is par and anything below that is underachievement?

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1 minute ago, the1stknowle said:

But we can judge him on what he has available. He has a good squad and he got to the final. Surely no one is saying that winning the tournament is par and anything below that is underachievement?

The ruthless pursuit of perfection, the Euros were no where close to failure, they were a success, however England's goal is to win and they need to determine whether they believe England's best chance is with Gareth or without him. Under Gareth area we really enough of an attacking threat? At 1-0 should we have tried to maintain pressure rather than being happy to sit off and soak pressure? So as said in a different post, after the world cup 4 year cycle review and preparation for the next 4 year cycle, is Gareth who we want building towards 2026.

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7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Wrong. He picked the 5 players who'd been most successful when they'd practised them during training. And I very much doubt he noticed the colour of anyone's skin while doing so.

"For England to win at penalties we need blokes called 'Arry and some black lads" doesn't sound like Southgate to me. 

The one thing I think it is safe to say about Southgate is that he prepares methodically. Accordingly, I am certain he would have left nothing to chance regarding penalties and will have, together with the players, determined the list of penalty takers well before the final, or any of the previous knock out games. His mistake was entrusting 2 penalties to players who had not kicked a ball in anger all evening ( because he left it too late to bring them on)  and the final one to a lad who had his worst game of the tournament and had looked like a rabbit in headlights all the time he was on the pitch. Sadly, reticence  to deviate from his  chosen plan seems to be GS’s weakness.

As for your last comment, I agree there is no way Southgate would see anything other than footballing ability as a factor - unlike the brainless morons dishing out completely unwarranted and undeserved criticism on 3 lads solely because of the colour of their skins. I wonder how the online abusers  would have reacted if Ashford, Saka and Sancho had scored but we had lost because Kane and Maguire had missed?

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Agree with most of those apart from results

A team with the talent pool and resources of England need to WIN things.

Problem is, the people in Italy, Spain, France and Germany will all be saying exactly the same.

As will the Brazilians and the Argentinians.

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3 hours ago, Lrrr said:

He needs to be judged on what he has available, probably the most talented pool of players to pick a squad from that we've ever had. St George's park as lauded by many to the contribution of how England have gotten better. The EPPP system as much as fans hate it seems to be working in terms of developing players for the England squad and this is the first generation of players coming through from that. As all this comes together expectations should be higher. Its the obvious comparison but I don't want this to divert off to a whole other argument, you can compare Southgate with England vs former managers with Johnson at City vs former managers. Had facilities/funds/players whatever that former managers didn't have and the expectation grows as the resources the coach has increase. 

We had the "golden generation" all through their peak within the last 15 years.

Half of the current squad are still years from their peak.

Can hardly call them the most talented when a majority of them are yet to reach their potential. 

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100%  he should carry on. Let's not forget we haven't been beaten in this tournament. We lost a penalty competition. No disgrace there. 

Best manager we've had since Sir Alf in terms of results. Not the greatest watch at times But tournament football is about results.  He produces them. 

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Just now, JamesBCFC said:

We had the "golden generation" all through their peak within the last 15 years.

Half of the current squad are still years from their peak.

Can hardly call them the most talented when a majority of them are yet to reach their potential. 

And yet they've reached 2 major tournament semi finals in a row, I look at the players who don't make this England squad vs before and we have better players being left out now, I said pool of players as well rather than squad. Previous 'golden generations' have usually been a good 1st XI rather than whole squad. So as said before I'd stack this squad/pool of players to pick from against any we've had in the last few decades. 

You say 'years from their peak' but look at Rooney as an example of players hitting their peak at different ages.

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3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Agree with most of those apart from results

A team with the talent pool and resources of England need to WIN things.

 

8 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Problem is, the people in Italy, Spain, France and Germany will all be saying exactly the same.

As will the Brazilians and the Argentinians.

Really,  people in those countries  are saying that England need to win things?

:) 

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9 hours ago, OneCity said:

There seems to be quite a few who believe Southgate should continue to lead the side as we enter the World Cup cycle. And also quite a few that we should part ways. So what's it to be? Where do people now stand?

I tend to the former. I would release him, but with full honours....

Well, if you “tend to the former” then you believe he should continue to lead the side as that was the “former” argument you placed in your post ... yet you then say you “would release him” which was the latter argument you placed in your post ... you seem a bit confused Chief - which is fine, no one really knows what we should do now ...

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It would be harsh to sack him but for me in his 2 most important games he’s been found to be lacking tactically and as a result we have had to soak up pressure whilst chasing the ball around the pitch, the euro result was more frustrating for me as we had players on the bench who can keep the ball and relieve some of that pressure but he wasn’t brave enough to make those calls. 

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11 hours ago, Lrrr said:

He needs to be judged on what he has available, probably the most talented pool of players to pick a squad from that we've ever had. St George's park as lauded by many to the contribution of how England have gotten better. The EPPP system as much as fans hate it seems to be working in terms of developing players for the England squad and this is the first generation of players coming through from that. As all this comes together expectations should be higher. Its the obvious comparison but I don't want this to divert off to a whole other argument, you can compare Southgate with England vs former managers with Johnson at City vs former managers. Had facilities/funds/players whatever that former managers didn't have and the expectation grows as the resources the coach has increase. 

Not true, I think.  Too many young and relatively inexperienced players to say they were more talented than the so called ‘golden generation’ of Beckham, Owen, Gerrard, Lampard etc. and did they ever get to a final?  No, as Rio Ferdinand said, and Frank agreed, they were stymied at least partly because of inter-club rivalries and the then management’s failure to deal with it.  Southgate had the youngest squad at the tournament and got us to the semi finals without conceding a goal.  His achievement is considerable.  If this squad fails in four years time, then that is when you can start talking about the best bunch of players we’ve ever had.

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