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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


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8 hours ago, glynriley said:

100%  he should carry on. Let's not forget we haven't been beaten in this tournament. We lost a penalty competition. No disgrace there. 

Best manager we've had since Sir Alf in terms of results. Not the greatest watch at times But tournament football is about results.  He produces them. 

Spot on glyn. My views exactly.

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bar germany and italy,we had a relatively easy run to the  final. i dont think we would have got there if we had been in the other half of the group. 

hes got to carry on as he has got us further than anybody else since 66 but there will now be higher expectations so i cant see him lasting past the world cup. if it was me,i would quit while i was ahead and not get sacked from the england job with his success rate

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8 hours ago, glynriley said:

100%  he should carry on. Let's not forget we haven't been beaten in this tournament. We lost a penalty competition. No disgrace there. 

Best manager we've had since Sir Alf in terms of results. Not the greatest watch at times But tournament football is about results.  He produces them. 

I actually found us decent to watch as well as getting results.  I really enjoyed this tourny as an England fan as have been massively disappointed with performances and results in the past.

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57 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Did we have a shot on target after the first goal?

I dont recall one.

As for taking trippier off, he scored a world class free kick in russia.

But cant be trusted to take a pen from 12 yards!

Anyone notice he gave southgate some verbals when he subbed him?

He was telling him to hurry up and get the Saka  on - even the commentary said it 

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25 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the people wanting him out now are the same ones who scream for City to change manager every time they lose more than a couple of games in succession.

Is it? Think you will find i will always give managers time, more than most

The fact Is i see it that GS has not been able to affect the game enough against Croatia and Italy with his tactical changes and IMO we definitely had the players available on Sunday to do so. 

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It’s comments like this that always disappoint me on these boards ,it doesn’t address the question ,but snipes and bullies people with an alternative view to them.Reading between the lines it says people with this view are stupid.

I say that as someone who thinks Southgate blew a massive opportunity but should stay on.I also liked LJ for a lot of his time here,wow not popular,but my opinion.

The thing about these boards ,like life you will have a huge variety of views some extreme in both directions that you will disagree hugely with.But everyone has the right to their own opinion without being slaughtered for holding that opinion.Point out why you think they are wrong ,with your own arguments.But generic mudslinging I see all too often and is sadly a way off life on-line.

The fact that all here spend time and effort on this particular board ,means we are all Bristol City supporters.Hopefully we can remember that when debating on here this season.

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When we can keep hold of the ball like Italy did, against the top sides, then we'll be ready to win something (and not play rather grimly for penalties) and perhaps give, if not free rein then maybe enough rein, to our attacking talent and be more positive. 

Those, or these, greater attacking threats we have that some feel were not used enough are very young but now have a bit of tournament experience and they will be 18 months further into their development at the next WC (should we qualify) and it might be that Southgate feels more confident to trust them. 

It is possible to look upon this summer as another step or building block along the way to another chance to do something momentous, just as it is possible to look upon it as a lost opportunity that will never be repeated and generally be a bit miserable.

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46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I actually found us decent to watch as well as getting results. 

Decent to watch ?

I must have viewed a different tournament, far to negative and  in the Scotland game we were booed off, there were many positives to come out of our matches but being decent to watch was not one of them.

 Italy showed it is possible to be entertaining and win , 

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2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Is it? Think you will find i will always give managers time, more than most

The fact Is i see it that GS has not been able to affect the game enough against Croatia and Italy with his tactical changes and IMO we definitely had the players available on Sunday to do so. 

I wonder if Rashford’s penalty had been six inches to the right and we went on to win the shootout whether people would be complaining about Southgate’s inability to affect the game with tactical changes?  The fact is that we drew against a better, more experienced team, undefeated for over thirty games.  There is, of course, no guarantee that had Southgate made different choices it would have made a blind bit of difference.  I prefer to look at the fact that we got to the final, weren’t beaten in 120 minutes, and lost only on the lottery of penalties.

 

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6 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Decent to watch ?

I must have viewed a different tournament, far to negative and  in the Scotland game we were booed off, there were many positives to come out of our matches but being decent to watch was not one of them.

 Italy showed it is possible to be entertaining and win , 

A bit unfair.  The games against Ukraine and Denmark were certainly entertaining, and who didn’t enjoy watching us beat Germany?

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1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I wonder if Rashford’s penalty had been six inches to the right and we went on to win the shootout whether people would be complaining about Southgate’s inability to affect the game with tactical changes?  The fact is that we drew against a better, more experienced team, undefeated for over thirty games.  There is, of course, no guarantee that had Southgate made different choices it would have made a blind bit of difference.  I prefer to look at the fact that we got to the final, weren’t beaten in 120 minutes, and lost only on the lottery of penalties.

 

You make a good point, although I'd argue that, man for man, Italy aren't a better team, so shouldn't really have dominated much of the game as they did

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10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I wonder if Rashford’s penalty had been six inches to the right and we went on to win the shootout whether people would be complaining about Southgate’s inability to affect the game with tactical changes?  The fact is that we drew against a better, more experienced team, undefeated for over thirty games.  There is, of course, no guarantee that had Southgate made different choices it would have made a blind bit of difference.  I prefer to look at the fact that we got to the final, weren’t beaten in 120 minutes, and lost only on the lottery of penalties.

 

It’s not really about the penalties for me, that’s a lottery. 
The fact is Italy had around 70% possession of the ball in that 2nd half and we literally did nothing to address this or try and affect the rhythm of the game. 
don’t get me wrong, i fully appreciate that people will feel im being overly harsh, but have we really moved on from the last big game with a load of pressure on him to make big decisions in play?

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3 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

A bit unfair.  The games against Ukraine and Denmark were certainly entertaining, and who didn’t enjoy watching us beat Germany?

Agreed the results made the tournament very enjoyable, we showed glimpses of how good an attacking  team we could be in fleeting moments but overall  left with the impression that we played to conservatively.

 

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10 hours ago, Lrrr said:

The ruthless pursuit of perfection, the Euros were no where close to failure, they were a success, however England's goal is to win and they need to determine whether they believe England's best chance is with Gareth or without him. Under Gareth area we really enough of an attacking threat? At 1-0 should we have tried to maintain pressure rather than being happy to sit off and soak pressure? So as said in a different post, after the world cup 4 year cycle review and preparation for the next 4 year cycle, is Gareth who we want building towards 2026.

Ok but we got to final and drew after extra time with the eventual winners. Back in the day, games were decided by coin toss after extra time. Penalties aren't hugely different. Its more luck than football. Presumably, had we lost the final on a coin toss then the win or sacked argument wouldn't make sense. I view losing by a single penalty in the final of a tournament as not that different to the coin toss.

I think we largely agree on the final. I thought the change to three at back was too focussed on opposition when we are now strong enough to focus on our own game. 433 would have made a lot more sense and could have given us more control of midfield. So he got over-cautious and made a mistake. Doesn't undo all the other very good decision-making he did through the tournament. And, with the three centre backs, we were very comfortable at back for most of game - so its not clear it was wrong move.

We conceeded one goal in open play. We got to a final. We won our quarter and semi without hanging on for dear life at the end. We have controlled games. This is not normal for England teams at tournaments, regardless of squad quality. 

It's not that I just disagree with people who want him gone. It's that I cant even understand where they are coming from or who else they would want in. (And this is all without considering all the non-football stuff and how Southgate has helped reignite interest in national team.)

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19 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Decent to watch ?

I must have viewed a different tournament, far to negative and  in the Scotland game we were booed off, there were many positives to come out of our matches but being decent to watch was not one of them.

 Italy showed it is possible to be entertaining and win , 

Opinions RA.  There’s more to enjoying a game than purely goalmouth incident.  Scotland was “old-style England”, but other than that we played with a purpose, a plan, we didn’t spend games chasing shadows, losing possession with Hollywood passing.  We played as a team, we showed the ability to mix systems and personnel. We controlled large periods of games (Italy in the final aside), Stones showed he can be a good international defender, etc, etc.  So, yes, I enjoyed it.  I didn’t sit there shouting at the telly in frustration like I do in most tournaments, I watched the game and I saw lots of good things.

It depends on your expectations too.  Do I expect free flowing football from a team that’s not the best in the world, also up against a number of teams who it’s fine margins whether we are better than or not.  Scotland aside we were playing the top teams in Europe.  We dealt with them well in the main.

So, I sit here today enthused by England’s performances and their progress in the last 12 months.

Yes, Italy were imho the best team in the tournament.  Spain are boring as f£#k for example.

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7 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Agreed the results made the tournament very enjoyable, we showed glimpses of how good an attacking  team we could be in fleeting moments but overall  left with the impression that we played to conservatively.

 

Why does the focus always have to be on attack as defining how good a team is?.  Italy have made a success of this tournament by being able to defend well.  Donnasummer had 9 shots to save all tournament.  They play counter-attack football founded on solid defence.  Itsly in fairness got the blend spot on.  But boy did they take on some pressure in the semi v Spain.  They defended brilliantly.  But most people will only focus on what they did at the other end.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Opinions RA.  There’s more to enjoying a game than purely goalmouth incident.  Scotland was “old-style England”, but other than that we played with a purpose, a plan, we didn’t spend games chasing shadows, losing possession with Hollywood passing.  We played as a team, we showed the ability to mix systems and personnel. We controlled large periods of games (Italy in the final aside), Stones showed he can be a good international defender, etc, etc.  So, yes, I enjoyed it.  I didn’t sit there shouting at the telly in frustration like I do in most tournaments, I watched the game and I saw lots of good things.

It depends on your expectations too.  Do I expect free flowing football from a team that’s not the best in the world, also up against a number of teams who it’s fine margins whether we are better than or not.  Scotland aside we were playing the top teams in Europe.  We dealt with them well in the main.

So, I sit here today enthused by England’s performances and their progress in the last 12 months.

Yes, Italy were imho the best team in the tournament.  Spain are boring as f£#k for example.

Solid post, totally agree. Apart from last sentence - in their last two games, Spain were great to watch and I really started to see why Enrique sticks with Morata despite his issues. And I could watch Pedri play football all day. 

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The draw fell beautifully for us in the World Cup - practically inviited us into the final.  One difficult oponent and we got beat. 

The draw also couldn't have worked out much better this tournament.  A good win against an under par Germany was really the only challenge we faced on route to the final (what a great win that was though!).  Up against a decent side, again we got beat despite having the best team, strongest squad, home advantage and ideal weather. 

For me, Mancini showed up the gulf in tactical ability between him and Southgate in that game and while Southgate got it right at the start of the match, the changes Mancini made enabled Italy to dominate.  We were lucky to get to pens.

There's no question that Southgate has done a great job off the field, gelliing the squad, being a great ambassador for the team, getting the fanbase excited again and behind the team.  He's done a decent job on the field also, but he is a bit defensive minded, cautious and slow to react or make positive changes.  

Can he take us any further?  Forget the so called noughties generation, we really do have a golden generation of players this time round - I can't think of any better squad in the World at the moment.   I'm torn, but I think well deserved recognition for what he's done, and get someone else in to take us to the next stage.  Gerrard, Lampard, Wilder?   Any of them would get us playing exciting football.      

 

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4 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Solid post, totally agree. Apart from last sentence - in their last two games, Spain were great to watch and I really started to see why Enrique sticks with Morata despite his issues. And I could watch Pedri play football all day. 

Yeah, against Italy they were, but generally I find them boring….just not a fan of the style of football.  Some of my viewpoint is because everyone craves to play that way, when actually it’s very difficult to do without elite players, and it skews people’s views of other styles being deemed inadequate / wrong / impure.  I believe you can play however you want, and should play the way that suits your team / players.

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11 minutes ago, SouthS22 said:

The draw fell beautifully for us in the World Cup - practically inviited us into the final.  One difficult oponent and we got beat. 

The draw also couldn't have worked out much better this tournament.  A good win against an under par Germany was really the only challenge we faced on route to the final (what a great win that was though!).  Up against a decent side, again we got beat despite having the best team, strongest squad, home advantage and ideal weather. 

For me, Mancini showed up the gulf in tactical ability between him and Southgate in that game and while Southgate got it right at the start of the match, the changes Mancini made enabled Italy to dominate.  We were lucky to get to pens.

There's no question that Southgate has done a great job off the field, gelliing the squad, being a great ambassador for the team, getting the fanbase excited again and behind the team.  He's done a decent job on the field also, but he is a bit defensive minded, cautious and slow to react or make positive changes.  

Can he take us any further?  Forget the so called noughties generation, we really do have a golden generation of players this time round - I can't think of any better squad in the World at the moment.   I'm torn, but I think well deserved recognition for what he's done, and get someone else in to take us to the next stage.  Gerrard, Lampard, Wilder?   Any of them would get us playing exciting football.      

 

That's a little harsh, I think. Croatia, Czech Republic and Denmark were all good sides (even though we were the favourites to win those games)

 

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We beat sides ranked 10th, 12th and 14th. We drew with the 7th (who arguably are in top 2 or 3 now). We didn't concede from open play (one free-kick and one corner). We are almost there and if Rashford's pen goes the other side of post I think we go on to win it - that was the key moment.

Southgate has earned a chance for Qatar 2022 IMO although I do think we need to be braver at 1-0 versus a top 5 side like WC semi and this final. 

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10 hours ago, Lrrr said:

And yet they've reached 2 major tournament semi finals in a row, I look at the players who don't make this England squad vs before and we have better players being left out now, I said pool of players as well rather than squad. Previous 'golden generations' have usually been a good 1st XI rather than whole squad. So as said before I'd stack this squad/pool of players to pick from against any we've had in the last few decades. 

You say 'years from their peak' but look at Rooney as an example of players hitting their peak at different ages.

Add Owen and Gazza to Rooney albeit Owen he did have injury issues

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1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the people wanting him out now are the same ones who scream for City to change manager every time they lose more than a couple of games in succession.

That’s a bit of generalisation, I want Southgate gone due to his not using the most of our most talented and gifted players yet I was a long way behind most people in wanting Johnson out

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10 minutes ago, Bullbag said:

Get rid, just not good enough. 

Too negative and too slow to react/make changes.

An abundance of attacking talent of which he doesn't get the best out of.

Honestly, if I was chairman of the FA I would be trying to get hold of Eddie Howe.

Young, English and I think would get the best out of what would be available to him.

 

And then you'd be trying to get rid of him of he didn't win the World Cup instantly.

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I think he should stay until Qatar and then assess after.

I'm not sure if expectations have been raised collectively or not.

I think my own expectation is that we have to aim to at least match our achievements at Euro 2020, by reaching the final of WC2022.

Anything else would be failure imo.

 

Not sure I can handle another penalty shoot out loss ever again though, so if we do fudge it please let it be in normal game play. 

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