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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


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There seems to be quite a few who believe Southgate should continue to lead the side as we enter the World Cup cycle. And also quite a few that we should part ways. So what's it to be? Where do people now stand?

I tend to the former. I would release him, but with full honours.

In many ways Southgate resembles LJ. A likeable guy, a great planner and organizer. He's probably going to get the best out of the players he selects, they'll give their all. But as a strategist, as a team tactician, Southgate comes up short in several fundamental ways.

He clearly has favourite players. That's never a good sign. He also has a favourite or preferred shape and style. As a player he was a defender, and as a manager on the sidelines he has retained that mentality, lacking that creative and aggressive impetus.

In my opinion he didn't make the best use of the wide array of talent at his disposal in this tournament. Foden (when available) should be starting every game. He's simply one of the finest footballers (if not the best) in the country right now. Grealish starts every game, too. Many would have him start ahead of Sterling, and I agree. Although yes, Sterling did well throughout the tournament, he's not an automatic starter for me. Sterling's always been a Dziekanowski kind of player. At times sublime, brilliant, at others totally anonymous. The Italians had him worked out from the first minute last night, he did a lot of running but failed to make any impact on the game. That's where you step in as a manager and change something. That's where you straight up swap him at halftime for Sako, or Bellingham. Put faith in your players, but not blind faith. Same for your chosen system. Any manager surely needs to adapt to circumstances by having a Plan B, and a Plan C, and so on. But I'm not sure Southgate does.

Like LJ, Southgate's critical decisions are not quite spot on. But they need to be to win a major title like the Euros or the World Cup. Congratulations for getting us to the final, turgid though it was at times, and thank you for the memories! They've been better than they have been for a long time. But what a chance missed... With a relatively gentle passage through the knockout stages, and home advantage no less, the stars really were aligned for us this time. I feel the extra ingredient that would have clinched it was better decision making and a bolder style of management.

I do strongly believe another manager/coach could have done even better with the very talented squad of players we have.

 

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I'm torn.

I love him as a person, he gets it. He understands the England fans, he shows quality leadership most of the time and has knitted together what looks like a very good team spirit which must be difficult when you are regularly leaving big players out of the team. How many players could be excused for being unhappy about their game time? Chilwell, Mings, Sancho, Foden, Rashford, Grealish could all be really unhappy but it doesn't show.

That said, he's not faultless and he's made some very strange decisions. I dont think any of us can understand Saka being given the 5th penalty, esepecially if Grealish wanted one. I dont believe he's just plucked that out of the air in the moment, he'd have had a plan and it would have been discussed who would take penalties. However, it still seems extremely odd to bring two players on who barely had time to get warm, and then give a decisive penalty to such a young man.

I felt he waited too long to make changes, Saka was probably the wrong one as he looked lost. Grealish should have been on sooner, Sancho too probably.

Who do we replace him with? THat's the key question for me. I think Southgate would love the chance to make up for his errors and take us to that next step and it looks like the FA are sticking with him. We have to back him if he's staying

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It depends who else is available.

He's had two 'strong' performances at the last two majors. I'd hope this would give him the confidence to play more positive attacking football. Not going all out, as I enjoyed how solid we were, but I didn't feel we dominated a full match in terms of chances & possession bar Ukraine.

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Can't answer that without considering who might replace him. You have to say his record is impressive. I think we have had far better players with previously successful coaches who haven't done this well.

It maybe that he learns from this tournament and can adapt the style to focus a bit more on the attacking flair in the squad. I'd give him Qatar to see if he can but then we will probably move on. 

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I'm not convinced he's someone who is ever going to lead us to a final triumph on the European or World stage.  He's tactically very naive and England are actually quite boring to watch.  But I would keep if only because the players seem to believe in him. 

Edited by cityloyal473
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This is a difficult one.

He clearly gets it and brings everyone together - players and fans - like no manager has done in my lifetime (early 90's onwards). 

But also he seems to be tactically inept at the big moments. Croatia and Italy - in both 2nd halves we lost it after controlling the first half.

I think probably should be given to Qatar and then change.

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Keep.
 

Most managers have ‘go-to’ players, and despite the core of Maguire, Pickford, Stones, Kane, Sterling and Walker the other places seem up for grabs.

There is a real togetherness in the team and I credit the manager with that spirit. He is a very good fit for England and has dragged them up from the low points of Roy Hodgson and Allardyce.
 

The argument is flawed unless you have the name of a successor who is available and would take the job.

Keep

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Difficult one really. Under Southgate, i reconnected with England. I had become disinterested under previous managers and failures. He clearly knows how to bring the squad together, but ultimately it's all about results. Its become a bit sentimental at times, with GS having tamed so many demons like reaching a Final, winning a penalty shootout in a WC, beating Germany etc. However in my mind he got it wrong last night, and you have to ask yourself: If that was Germany, France, Italy etc playing at home and they lost would the coach keep their job?

I wouldn't even know where to start with a new Manager - before deciding to replaced Southgate who would you get to replace him?

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People need to remember, he doesn't have a full pre season with the team and he doesn't coach them day in day out. 

Its amazing how much of a unity and team spirit he has managed to build with this team. He has empowered teenagers to play without fear in major tournaments and taken an English team to our first major tournament since 66. 

We have a good side with lots of potential, but this isn't a side with prime Terry, Lampard, Scholes, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Neville. We didn't have the best starting 11 in the tournament and no right to expect to win.

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The delusion of people who think he's tactically naive is laughable.

Who the hell are you to judge? Only really a comment worth taking any notice of if it came from Mancini, Klopp Guardiola, Tuchel or Enrique etc.

As for replacing him, do you actually think the FA are capable of appointing someone better?? 

He's done a magnificent job and deserves to continue as the players are clearly improving way quicker than could reasonably be expected.

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3 minutes ago, The Bard said:

 

Who the hell are you to judge?

I believe as England fans and supporters we are entitled to judge. There are plenty fans / supporters that understand the game and can analyse tactics. This is a football forum - you know - a place to talk about football. 

What an odd comment

2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Can’t think of a realistic choice to replace with him with as I’d only want an Englishman 

Theoretically, would you have Guardiola in charge?

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4 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I believe as England fans and supporters we are entitled to judge. There are plenty fans / supporters that understand the game and can analyse tactics. This is a football forum - you know - a place to talk about football. 

What an odd comment

Theoretically, would you have Guardiola in charge?

No I believe managers of a national team should be of that nationality unless that’s not plausible I.e a foreign coach going into a developing nation to improve them where there is no/little choice of manager from that country who can do it. Found it embarrassing when we felt we needed to appoint Sven and Capello 

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Keep, he's an "outstanding human" (to coin a phrase) and our most successful manager in the last 50 years, ffs.

He just needs to be a wee bit braver - do we really need 2 CDMs and why wait so long to use our subs? 

And get himself better coaches - Steve Holland was talking to Southgate non stop in every game we were winning, full of suggestions. Last night he spent the game sat on his arse with not a single idea about how to wrestle the game back from Italy - when the going got tough, he was nowhere to be seen and left the manager to try and work it out for himself.  

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19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s built a team, he man-manages well, but is he a top international tactician?  That’s my one doubt.

Good question. Is he tactically better this tournament than last…? I think so. Can he be tactically better in Qatar in 18 months? I hope so. 
I’d stick with him….. he’s also massively improved the culture of the team. 
 

Another way of looking at it would be he’s had tremendous tools to work with and is he the best from them? I’ve made him sound like another up and coming young English manager we all know! 

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8 minutes ago, The Bard said:

The delusion of people who think he's tactically naive is laughable.

Who the hell are you to judge? Only really a comment worth taking any notice of if it came from Mancini, Klopp Guardiola, Tuchel or Enrique etc.

As for replacing him, do you actually think the FA are capable of appointing someone better?? 

He's done a magnificent job and deserves to continue as the players are clearly improving way quicker than could reasonably be expected.

I asked whether he’s a top international tactician?  There is evidence in this tournament that says he isn’t.  That’s a big difference to “tactically naive”.  He’s operating at the top level, and I think there are question marks over that part of his managerial toolkit at this level, just like plenty of other managers.

Might we have won if the managers were switched around?  Mancini made tactical tweaks to get Italy on top in the game (even if game was 0-1), and the pressure finally told with the equaliser.  Southgate’s temptation was to wait for a Italy equaliser, then react, rather than be pro-active.  The fact that the changes he made for the final 10-15 minutes meant we finished the 90 stronger is proof imho.  If he’d have done that earlier, he might’ve avoided the equaliser and we might’ve seen the game out.

I didn’t say sack him.

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He deserves the next tournament.

Likeable chap.

But I wonder if we’d swapped managers at half time last night ,whether there would have been a different outcome.

Got to say lots of England managers of the past would have loved the options this group of players gives you.

No doubt we blew our best opportunity for decades last night and that was down to tactics.Hopefully lessons learned.

Ha ha you beat me to it with the manager swap question!!

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33 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Would this even be a question if we had scored 2 more penalties ?

Or had a bit more of the ball in the second half. They were all over us and the stats were embarrassing for a team playing on home soil. 
Southgate made changes at the wrong time, the subs should have been on before Italy equalised.  

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6 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Keep, he's an "outstanding human" (to coin a phrase) and our most successful manager in the last 50 years, ffs.

He just needs to be a wee bit braver - do we really need 2 CDMs and why wait so long to use our subs? 

And get himself better coaches - Steve Holland was talking to Southgate non stop in every game we were winning, full of suggestions. Last night he spent the game sat on his arse with not a single idea about how to wrestle the game back from Italy - when the going got tough, he was nowhere to be seen and left the manager to try and work it out for himself.  

Think bravery / courage is a good shout.  To add to my previous post, courage is making the change pro-actively before the event happens / to stop the event happening.

In fairness he did that with his selection v Germany.  Wish he’d have acted sooner last night.

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12 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

No I believe managers of a national team should be of that nationality unless that’s not plausible I.e a foreign coach going into a developing nation to improve them where there is no/little choice of manager from that country who can do it. Found it embarrassing when we felt we needed to appoint Sven and Capello 

In an ideal world your coach is home grown, i agree but on that basis GS stays as coach for a loooonng time because who on earth would you pick that's English.

If Guardiola was an option (which he isnt) you would have to give it to him. Surely?

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19 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Theoretically, would you have Guardiola in charge?

No. Guardiola plays a certain style of football where success can only come from buying the right players to suit, or from hours and hours on training field. 

International football is such a different game. You have a mix of players who rarely play together, you only have a few weeks a year to get them on board with your approach, and you can't spend millions replacing a player if you need someone better suited. 

Southgate is a great people person, and a lot of tournement football resolves around that human element. Bringing the team together, bonding them, getting them to work for you. Respect, listen, learn, 3 things not easy to garner. 

He may be tactically naive at times, but I've seen a massive improvement this tournement vs the World Cup on that front. 

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