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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


OneCity
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1 minute ago, Selred said:

No. Guardiola plays a certain style of football where success can only come from buying the right players to suit, or from hours and hours on training field. 

International football is such a different game. You have a mix of players who rarely play together, you only have a few weeks a year to get them on board with your approach, and you can't spend millions replacing a player if you need someone better suited. 

Be interesting to see Guardiola manage a national team. I agree with you to a certain extent, but cream generally rises to the top. 

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Would be ridiculous to get rid before the World Cup. He's just taken us to our second ever final and the response is sack him? No chance.

However, as we saw last night and in the World Cup semi-final, he is too negative when we take the lead in big games. The team sat deeper and deeper as the game progressed and instead of pressing Italy and using our pace to stretch their older, slower back line we invited pressure that we could never handle for a full half. Bringing on Rashford and Sancho to take a penalty when they didn't have time to touch the ball during the match was also crazy, it's a huge ask for any player, let alone two who've barely featured all tournament.

Lessons have to be learned, and I'm not convinced they will be as the same mistakes have been made twice now, but he completely deserves the World Cup to have another crack at a final. After that, unless we win or make it to the final I would say it's time for a refresh, I'd like to see Gerrard come in (or in a dream world Wenger but that won't happen).

The future's bright for England, this team will only get better as the players continue to mature. I'll rave about Jude Bellingham 'till the cows come home but he'll bring some dynamism to the midfield that Rice and Phillips, for all their excellent attributes, lack. Another season like his last for Dortmund and he should be starting. A trophy in the next ten years seems pretty feasible to me.

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19 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Keep, he's an "outstanding human" (to coin a phrase) and our most successful manager in the last 50 years, ffs.

He just needs to be a wee bit braver - do we really need 2 CDMs and why wait so long to use our subs? 

And get himself better coaches - Steve Holland was talking to Southgate non stop in every game we were winning, full of suggestions. Last night he spent the game sat on his arse with not a single idea about how to wrestle the game back from Italy - when the going got tough, he was nowhere to be seen and left the manager to try and work it out for himself.  

Was thinking the same thing last night.  The other bloke who is 'on loan' from Newcastle had his ear.  Maybe that's why Holland was quiet?  Didn't get his way with team selection or something?  You get the impression Holland thinks he's running the show through Southgate..

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The obvious replacement is Lee Johnson - he also refuses to select favourite players and clearly knows an awful lot more than he shows!  I believe he has also mastered the powerpoint presentation and is happy to use drones!  Go Johnno!!

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2 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Was thinking the same thing last night.  The other bloke who is 'on loan' from Newcastle had his ear.  Maybe that's why Holland was quiet?  Didn't get his way with team selection or something?  You get the impression Holland thinks he's running the show through Southgate..

Didn't know who that bloke was or that he was from Newcastle - no wonder we lost!

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32 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I believe as England fans and supporters we are entitled to judge. There are plenty fans / supporters that understand the game and can analyse tactics. This is a football forum - you know - a place to talk about football. 

What an odd comment

Theoretically, would you have Guardiola in charge?

Entitled to have an opinion yes but the phrase 'tactically naive' being used to describe a coach who has taken England to a the Final of the Euros is ridiculous.  You can agree or disagree but labelling someone of Southgate's experience and stature as such is laughable and delusional.  

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1 hour ago, OneCity said:

There seems to be quite a few who believe Southgate should continue to lead the side as we enter the World Cup cycle. And also quite a few that we should part ways. So what's it to be? Where do people now stand?

I tend to the former. I would release him, but with full honours.

In many ways Southgate resembles LJ. A likeable guy, a great planner and organizer. He's probably going to get the best out of the players he selects, they'll give their all. But as a strategist, as a team tactician, Southgate comes up short in several fundamental ways.

He clearly has favourite players. That's never a good sign. He also has a favourite or preferred shape and style. As a player he was a defender, and as a manager on the sidelines he has retained that mentality, lacking that creative and aggressive impetus.

In my opinion he didn't make the best use of the wide array of talent at his disposal in this tournament. Foden (when available) should be starting every game. He's simply one of the finest footballers (if not the best) in the country right now. Grealish starts every game, too. Many would have him start ahead of Sterling, and I agree. Although yes, Sterling did well throughout the tournament, he's not an automatic starter for me. Sterling's always been a Dziekanowski kind of player. At times sublime, brilliant, at others totally anonymous. The Italians had him worked out from the first minute last night, he did a lot of running but failed to make any impact on the game. That's where you step in as a manager and change something. That's where you straight up swap him at halftime for Sako, or Bellingham. Put faith in your players, but not blind faith. Same for your chosen system. Any manager surely needs to adapt to circumstances by having a Plan B, and a Plan C, and so on. But I'm not sure Southgate does.

Like LJ, Southgate's critical decisions are not quite spot on. But they need to be to win a major title like the Euros or the World Cup. Congratulations for getting us to the final, turgid though it was at times, and thank you for the memories! They've been better than they have been for a long time. But what a chance missed... With a relatively gentle passage through the knockout stages, and home advantage no less, the stars really were aligned for us this time. I feel the extra ingredient that would have clinched it was better decision making and a bolder style of management.

I do strongly believe another manager/coach could have done even better with the very talented squad of players we have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have anyone else in mind? 

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2 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Get rid.

Hes been found wanting again when it comes to tactical nous.

He has learnt nothing from the crotia game.

No shots on target after the first goal.

Kane living off scraps.

 

 

Not sure about the get rid, but the rest of this I thoroughly  agree with. 
 

While I’m fine with conceding possession as part of a tactic of hitting on the break, but we don’t do it very well. 
 

Kane saw nothing in front of goal and we created next to nothing for 118 minutes.

But Saka to take a penalty before many senior pros is unforgivable. I have seen a lot about racist abuse today, so I will say without a tinge of racism——-Marcus Rashford you had an empty net and you hit the post! Sigh!

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He was a penatly shoot-out away from a Knighthood and now people are suggesting we may be better off sacking him....unbelievable.

He has got a lot more right than he has wrong in this tournament and we finally have a team we can believe in after the best part of a decade without having this, on top of this he is a genuinely nice guy with morals and principles that reflect well.

 

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42 minutes ago, Redtrojan said:

Got to say lots of England managers of the past would have loved the options this group of players gives you.

I know what you're saying and it's hard to disagree but we've had talent before and not had a clue what to do with it - how did England perform in the late 70s/early 80s when our club sides ruled European football and as for that idiot Eriksson - he didn't have a clue how to use Paul Scholes, the best midfielder of his generation, for starters. 

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I've posted this on another thread but these are our achievements coming away from the Euros:

- Since 1966, England had only won six knockout games when he took over. He's now increased that to 11 meaning that 45% of England's knockout wins have been under him.

- Before this tournament, we had only ever won one knockout match at a European Championships. We won three in this tournament. 

- England had never won an opening Euros match. We beat Croatia (the finalists of the last World Cup) in the opening fixture. 

- We beat Germany in a knockout match for the first time since 1966. 

- Pickford broke Gordon Banks' record for the longest a keeper has gone without conceding in an England shirt. 

- We didn't concede until the semi finals.

- We got to our first major final since 1966 and were a few penalty kicks away from winning it. 

Only one of the 55 UEFA affiliated nations can win the Euros and coming second is a big stride forward. Success isn't binary and to sack or question a manager after our greatest tournament in 55 years would be foolish. We could quite quickly go back to the days of Sven, Cappello or Hodgson in an instance. 

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Work in progress, learning from the experiences, building long term, designed innainfa-structurestructure, worked with all our, very young, rising stars from the start. This is how you gain sustainable success....

He's done very well indeed from a very poor position brought about by chopping and changing, if you'd said 1 world cup semi and a euro final by 2021 in 2016 you'd have been laughed out of here!

See what happens next year...you could book your quarter final tickets now in confidence and put a pretty good case for a semi and final punt!

A man who admits his mistakes, learns from them and ignores what every two penny pundit says will do well

Keep him

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Watching England last night was like watching City when we've been in and around the play offs

Desperately trying to show we can compete with the big boys, but just not good enough. It was an absolute schooling on how to control a game of football. Whilst I thought we defended well (caveat - that was very un-City like) we could still be there now and not have scored. It's that final 10% that we are trying to find

Is it Southgate's fault, no
Could he have made some changes sooner, in my humble opinion - yes
A young group of lads, most of whom are playing massive games week in, week out for their clubs, they're only going to get better
With a World Cup 18 months away there's no way I'd change it now

But as others have pointed out, I don't see Southgate as a world class coach, in fact I heard somewhere last week that Steve Holland is pretty much left alone to deal with that. Didn't realise that Graeme Jones was with the set up, had a good experience with Wales in the last Euros. Interesting to see if he stays on and how the dynamic works with the 3 of them

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10 minutes ago, Coppello said:

I've posted this on another thread but these are our achievements coming away from the Euros:

- Since 1966, England had only won six knockout games when he took over. He's now increased that to 11 meaning that 45% of England's knockout wins have been under him.

- Before this tournament, we had only ever won one knockout match at a European Championships. We won three in this tournament. 

- England had never won an opening Euros match. We beat Croatia (the finalists of the last World Cup) in the opening fixture. 

- We beat Germany in a knockout match for the first time since 1966. 

- Pickford broke Gordon Banks' record for the longest a keeper has gone without conceding in an England shirt. 

- We didn't concede until the semi finals.

- We got to our first major final since 1966 and were a few penalty kicks away from winning it. 

Only one of the 55 UEFA affiliated nations can win the Euros and coming second is a big stride forward. Success isn't binary and to sack or question a manager after our greatest tournament in 55 years would be foolish. We could quite quickly go back to the days of Sven, Cappello or Hodgson in an instance. 

Well said.

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While I don't think he was great last night, I mean we were desperately crying out for subs and change. 

At any point after HT 

Sandro /saka/Grealish for Mount 

Henderson for tripper 

Go 433

 

Or 

Sandro /saka for Mount

Grealish for trippier 

4213 

Just two examples. 

My problem with last night is he was reactive not proactive. Changing nothing until after they scored. Something he must learn from, stay on the front foot, not fear 

........... 

 

However, you simply cannot judge the success of a manager based on a Final penalty shootout... He's been in charge of two tournements in which we have a semi and a final appearance.. In my opinion, he's earnt the right to do whatever he wants in the next tournement 

 

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5 minutes ago, Coppello said:

I've posted this on another thread but these are our achievements coming away from the Euros:

- Since 1966, England had only won six knockout games when he took over. He's now increased that to 11 meaning that 45% of England's knockout wins have been under him.

- Before this tournament, we had only ever won one knockout match at a European Championships. We won three in this tournament. 

- England had never won an opening Euros match. We beat Croatia (the finalists of the last World Cup) in the opening fixture. 

- We beat Germany in a knockout match for the first time since 1966. 

- Pickford broke Gordon Banks' record for the longest a keeper has gone without conceding in an England shirt. 

- We didn't concede until the semi finals.

- We got to our first major final since 1966 and were a few penalty kicks away from winning it. 

Only one of the 55 UEFA affiliated nations can win the Euros and coming second is a big stride forward. Success isn't binary and to sack or question a manager after our greatest tournament in 55 years would be foolish. We could quite quickly go back to the days of Sven, Cappello or Hodgson in an instance. 

I’m not sure that the choice is binary. Keep Southgate or risk going backward. 
 

Hiwever the FA have a track record of awful appointments!

The fact is Mr Southgate will be England manager going into the next World Cup, whomever thinks whatever on this forum. 
 

Pointing out the achievements is useful in view of how awful we have actually been for as long as we all remember. 
 

The hope can only be that we actually find a way to get balls into one of the worlds best forwards when it matters against teams that matter!

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He'll be here until the World Cup regardless, it's only 18 months away now and the qualifying has already started.

After that all bets are off, but any decision will be down to him, there's no chance he gets sacked now.

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He’s done what plenty of other managers have failed to do in getting us to a major final, and he’s done it with a relatively young team who will only get better as they gain experience. Gareth is also learning. 
 

WC semi Euro final - If any England fans was offered that after the Iceland defeat in 2016 they would have snapped your hand off. He’s earned the job for the next WC and I’m personally excited to see how we go

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I'd keep him for the immediate future.

I've been quite critical of some of his tactics, selections, subs policy and how he decided on last night's penalty takers was f-ing nuts, BUT he has moved England forward, his coaching and team-building skills seem pretty good and no one is going to sack a bloke who took us to the semis of the World cup and final of the euros.

One of the things about Southgate is he's quite a thoughtful, analytic man and we can have a reasonable hope that he learns from his mistakes and advances England even further.  Despite the defeat, morale must be sky high. 

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I think he deserves a crack at another tournament to be honest. Getting us to only our second ever final is a fantastic achievement. Much more experienced bigger names haven’t even got England close to a major final so i think great credit has to be given to him for that.

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