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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


OneCity
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He definitely needs to learn lessons from last night and I think he will. I'd like him to stay on as he seems to be able to get a good thing going with the players. Young players that will be around for a while yet. Keeping the familiarity of the England set up will hopefully mean we get really good at what we're good at.   

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1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

As I see it.

 

The most successful Manager England have had since Sir Alf

or

Some bloke that there is no guarantee will work?


How many tried with out "Golden Generation"? We tried home grown, foreign , younger, older. There is nothing that proves another guy would do as good , let alone better. Every appointment is a risk

The sad thing is, Gareth may choose to quit due to the pressure of the job. 

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27 minutes ago, Coppello said:

I've posted this on another thread but these are our achievements coming away from the Euros:

- Since 1966, England had only won six knockout games when he took over. He's now increased that to 11 meaning that 45% of England's knockout wins have been under him.

- Before this tournament, we had only ever won one knockout match at a European Championships. We won three in this tournament. 

- England had never won an opening Euros match. We beat Croatia (the finalists of the last World Cup) in the opening fixture. 

- We beat Germany in a knockout match for the first time since 1966. 

- Pickford broke Gordon Banks' record for the longest a keeper has gone without conceding in an England shirt. 

- We didn't concede until the semi finals.

- We got to our first major final since 1966 and were a few penalty kicks away from winning it. 

Only one of the 55 UEFA affiliated nations can win the Euros and coming second is a big stride forward. Success isn't binary and to sack or question a manager after our greatest tournament in 55 years would be foolish. We could quite quickly go back to the days of Sven, Cappello or Hodgson in an instance. 

I’m not sure that the choice is binary. Keep Southgate or risk going backward. 
 

Hiwever the FA have a track record of awful appointments!

The fact is Mr Southgate will be England manager going into the next World Cup, whomever thinks whatever on this forum. 
 

Pointing out the achievements is useful in view of how awful we have actually been for as long as we all remember. 
 

The hope can only be that we actually find a way to get balls into one of the worlds best forwards when it matters against teams that matter!

On another note. City Flag in Champs 059A170A-17DD-4BF2-AA5E-497134885D60.jpeg.762364afecf8126101553b3500465299.jpegLake Geneva Wisconsin yesterday 

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0C8A4B40-C0F9-4AD2-8574-7CA7D1C8CDBE.jpeg

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After our dismal showings in World Cups in Russia and South Africa and the 2016 Euros I just wonder what some people's definition of success is.

Following those tournaments if someone had said that in the near future England would lose to a very talented Croatia in a WC semi final , win the Nations Cup and lose in a Euro final to an Italy team unbeaten since Julius Ceasar was running The Roman Empire, not only would it be unlikely that you'd think it would be under an English manager, but impossible that the manager would be Southgate. 

He's made is hard to beat, which is great for ensuring progress from the group stages of a tournament. Unfortunately, setting up not to lose is not going to make us tournament winners. 

Italy were the best team throughout the tournament, so it's no disgrace to have lost to them and only on penalties. However after 20 minutes they were on the ropes and arguing among themselves. The cautious approach thereafter allowed Italy to gain a foothold and to dominate the game from there. 

If Southgate can replace fear of losing with desire to win and make positive  key in game changes when needed, then this young squad will get stronger and more competitive. 

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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I'm torn.

I love him as a person, he gets it. He understands the England fans, he shows quality leadership most of the time and has knitted together what looks like a very good team spirit which must be difficult when you are regularly leaving big players out of the team. How many players could be excused for being unhappy about their game time? Chilwell, Mings, Sancho, Foden, Rashford, Grealish could all be really unhappy but it doesn't show.

That said, he's not faultless and he's made some very strange decisions. I dont think any of us can understand Saka being given the 5th penalty, esepecially if Grealish wanted one. I dont believe he's just plucked that out of the air in the moment, he'd have had a plan and it would have been discussed who would take penalties. However, it still seems extremely odd to bring two players on who barely had time to get warm, and then give a decisive penalty to such a young man.

I felt he waited too long to make changes, Saka was probably the wrong one as he looked lost. Grealish should have been on sooner, Sancho too probably.

Who do we replace him with? THat's the key question for me. I think Southgate would love the chance to make up for his errors and take us to that next step and it looks like the FA are sticking with him. We have to back him if he's staying

Definately a lee johnson type manager picks a team to compete and defend deep you wont get away with defending for eighty mins of a match very often .

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I asked whether he’s a top international tactician?  There is evidence in this tournament that says he isn’t.  That’s a big difference to “tactically naive”.  He’s operating at the top level, and I think there are question marks over that part of his managerial toolkit at this level, just like plenty of other managers.

Might we have won if the managers were switched around?  Mancini made tactical tweaks to get Italy on top in the game (even if game was 0-1), and the pressure finally told with the equaliser.  Southgate’s temptation was to wait for a Italy equaliser, then react, rather than be pro-active.  The fact that the changes he made for the final 10-15 minutes meant we finished the 90 stronger is proof imho.  If he’d have done that earlier, he might’ve avoided the equaliser and we might’ve seen the game out.

I didn’t say sack him.

Wasn't aimed at you boss - you didn't say tactically naive but plenty on here and social media did with zero justification.

Against Denmark we saw the downside of being proactive when their manager emptied the bench and ceded control to us.  They ended up with 10 players despite making 6 substitutions.  

 

FWIW,  I think the biggest question is about who he has around him.  As Merrick's Marvels said, that Holland was nowhere to be seen when things weren't going to plan.  No manager has all the attributes and so relies on others to provide certain characteristics or a different viewpoint.  
 

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I know what you're saying and it's hard to disagree but we've had talent before and not had a clue what to do with it - how did England perform in the late 70s/early 80s when our club sides ruled European football and as for that idiot Eriksson - he didn't have a clue how to use Paul Scholes, the best midfielder of his generation, for starters. 

The man was a charlatan.  Trevor Sinclair instead of Steve McManaman?!!!  Almost on a par with Graham Taylor picking Tony Daley instead of Chris Waddle or Geoff Thomas instead of Gazza.  I remember everyone cooing when he said David Beckham was a cultural architect.  No he wasn't, it's just that he sold more shirts than the rest of the team because he had a PR machine behind him.

 

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11 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Wasn't aimed at you boss - you didn't say tactically naive but plenty on here and social media did with zero justification.

Against Denmark we saw the downside of being proactive when their manager emptied the bench and ceded control to us.  They ended up with 10 players despite making 6 substitutions.  

 

FWIW,  I think the biggest question is about who he has around him.  As Merrick's Marvels said, that Holland was nowhere to be seen when things weren't going to plan.  No manager has all the attributes and so relies on others to provide certain characteristics or a different viewpoint.  
 

It’s an interesting take on Holland (or Jones).  Holland got a lot of plaudits in the QF for being on the ball re getting the yellow carded players off.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 The fact that the changes he made for the final 10-15 minutes meant we finished the 90 stronger is proof imho.  If he’d have done that earlier, he might’ve avoided the equaliser and we might’ve seen the game out.

I totally agree that he waited too long to make subs. I was saying that after about 55 mins. However I'm not sure that the evidence you cite proves anything. Teams sitting on a 1-0 lead and losing the initiative will often lift themselves when they lose that lead. 

For me it is more about mentality and approach of the players than tactics. We've seen England do exactly the same thing at previous tournaments. Get ahead then freeze and stop playing their own game. It is almost the English football disease. Lack of self belief and allowing the opposition to impose themselves on us. That's why it is so frustrating as it almost feels like an in-built national weakness. 

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Depends who wants the job. If Graham Potter was to be interested then absolutely. Potter has shown how tactically intelligent he is. Pep described Potter as a joy to watch and a joy to analyse.

He would have England well drilled in exciting front foot passing football. I can't imagine we'd see the kind of performance we did last night from a Potter England side.

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Keep. I see no reason to get rid. He’s got us to a semi final and final and overall he’s done well. Much better than some of his “big name” predecessors (e.g. Sven and Capello) who had players feted as being world class but couldn’t get them playing as a team. We were very close to winning yesterday.

Much to learn from last night, though. I have no idea why Southgate didn’t make changes earlier once Italy stated to completely dominate. In contrast, Mancini used subs to wrestle back control of the game. 

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Of course keep.  The man took us to the final of a major trophy with one of the youngest, if not the youngest, squads in the competition.  A phenomenal achievement, and we only lost to an experienced Italian team who haven’t lost for over 30 matches on the lottery of penalties.  How can anyone even contemplate getting rid of him?

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I don’t really know what England expected. Italy haven’t been beaten for 33 games and there is a reason for that.

yes, there were some mistakes last night but we are on an upward curve, improving with each tournament. As the latest Army recruitment advert on the radio says, you learn from your mistakes and your failures.
We go again , with the experience of another tournament  behind us for both manager and players , to the World Cup next year. 

 

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3 hours ago, The Bard said:

Entitled to have an opinion yes but the phrase 'tactically naive' being used to describe a coach who has taken England to a the Final of the Euros is ridiculous.  You can agree or disagree but labelling someone of Southgate's experience and stature as such is laughable and delusional.  

No, accepting him as so e kind of messiah is laughable and delusional!

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4 hours ago, OneCity said:

There seems to be quite a few who believe Southgate should continue to lead the side as we enter the World Cup cycle. And also quite a few that we should part ways. So what's it to be? Where do people now stand?

I tend to the former. I would release him, but with full honours.

In many ways Southgate resembles LJ. A likeable guy, a great planner and organizer. He's probably going to get the best out of the players he selects, they'll give their all. But as a strategist, as a team tactician, Southgate comes up short in several fundamental ways.

He clearly has favourite players. That's never a good sign. He also has a favourite or preferred shape and style. As a player he was a defender, and as a manager on the sidelines he has retained that mentality, lacking that creative and aggressive impetus.

In my opinion he didn't make the best use of the wide array of talent at his disposal in this tournament. Foden (when available) should be starting every game. He's simply one of the finest footballers (if not the best) in the country right now. Grealish starts every game, too. Many would have him start ahead of Sterling, and I agree. Although yes, Sterling did well throughout the tournament, he's not an automatic starter for me. Sterling's always been a Dziekanowski kind of player. At times sublime, brilliant, at others totally anonymous. The Italians had him worked out from the first minute last night, he did a lot of running but failed to make any impact on the game. That's where you step in as a manager and change something. That's where you straight up swap him at halftime for Sako, or Bellingham. Put faith in your players, but not blind faith. Same for your chosen system. Any manager surely needs to adapt to circumstances by having a Plan B, and a Plan C, and so on. But I'm not sure Southgate does.

Like LJ, Southgate's critical decisions are not quite spot on. But they need to be to win a major title like the Euros or the World Cup. Congratulations for getting us to the final, turgid though it was at times, and thank you for the memories! They've been better than they have been for a long time. But what a chance missed... With a relatively gentle passage through the knockout stages, and home advantage no less, the stars really were aligned for us this time. I feel the extra ingredient that would have clinched it was better decision making and a bolder style of management.

I do strongly believe another manager/coach could have done even better with the very talented squad of players we have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's here till the WC so live with it.

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I have nothing against Southgate but (as is usual) the media over hyped our performances throughout the tournament. Apart from a convincing win against a second rate Ukraine i was never on the edge of my seat with our attacking play.

A guy on Twitter posted the following and it sums it up perfectly for me.

"Southgate has been getting praise all tournament for all the things we dislike about Mourinho. If you're going to be so pragmatic, you HAVE to win, otherwise you're just a team that didn't go for it and won nothing. There's nothing heroic in that"

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4 hours ago, OneCity said:

There seems to be quite a few who believe Southgate should continue to lead the side as we enter the World Cup cycle. And also quite a few that we should part ways. So what's it to be? Where do people now stand?

I tend to the former. I would release him, but with full honours.

In many ways Southgate resembles LJ. A likeable guy, a great planner and organizer. He's probably going to get the best out of the players he selects, they'll give their all. But as a strategist, as a team tactician, Southgate comes up short in several fundamental ways.

He clearly has favourite players. That's never a good sign. He also has a favourite or preferred shape and style. As a player he was a defender, and as a manager on the sidelines he has retained that mentality, lacking that creative and aggressive impetus.

In my opinion he didn't make the best use of the wide array of talent at his disposal in this tournament. Foden (when available) should be starting every game. He's simply one of the finest footballers (if not the best) in the country right now. Grealish starts every game, too. Many would have him start ahead of Sterling, and I agree. Although yes, Sterling did well throughout the tournament, he's not an automatic starter for me. Sterling's always been a Dziekanowski kind of player. At times sublime, brilliant, at others totally anonymous. The Italians had him worked out from the first minute last night, he did a lot of running but failed to make any impact on the game. That's where you step in as a manager and change something. That's where you straight up swap him at halftime for Sako, or Bellingham. Put faith in your players, but not blind faith. Same for your chosen system. Any manager surely needs to adapt to circumstances by having a Plan B, and a Plan C, and so on. But I'm not sure Southgate does.

Like LJ, Southgate's critical decisions are not quite spot on. But they need to be to win a major title like the Euros or the World Cup. Congratulations for getting us to the final, turgid though it was at times, and thank you for the memories! They've been better than they have been for a long time. But what a chance missed... With a relatively gentle passage through the knockout stages, and home advantage no less, the stars really were aligned for us this time. I feel the extra ingredient that would have clinched it was better decision making and a bolder style of management.

I do strongly believe another manager/coach could have done even better with the very talented squad of players we have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Luckily with the World Cup only a year away we will see if he’s a fraud like some claim,semi final or bust

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4 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Luckily with the World Cup only a year away we will see if he’s a fraud like some claim,semi final or bust

Southgate is not a fraud. He’s taken England to their first major final in 55 years and was unfortunate to lose on penalties to the Italians.

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39 minutes ago, frenchred said:

2nd is nothing, but hey ho if your happy with that.

Probs the reason england have been so shite over the years

You think England have been that bad because Shepton Red was satisfied with coming 2nd in the Euros?

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4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Southgate is not a fraud. He’s taken England to their first major final in 55 years and was unfortunate to lose on penalties to the Italians.

Unfortunate playing bland football, zero adventure or risk with prehaps the best attacking players on offer for years. 

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3 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

The sad thing is, Gareth may choose to quit due to the pressure of the job. 

Already said he want's to take them to the World Cup, after that I think he'd reassess .

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