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Keep Southgate, or Get Rid?


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I think he should stay until Qatar and then assess after.

I'm not sure if expectations have been raised collectively or not.

I think my own expectation is that we have to aim to at least match our achievements at Euro 2020, by reaching the final of WC2022.

Anything else would be failure imo.

 

Not sure I can handle another penalty shoot out loss ever again though, so if we do fudge it please let it be in normal game play. 

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3 minutes ago, Bullbag said:

The real reason I want rid is because GS hasn't learnt a thing since Croatia in WC 2018. Outplayed and overrun in midfield and failed to address it, only this time around he had more strength in depth to actually come on and change it. Everyone could see that an Italy goal was coming and we very lucky it wasn't over before extra time and penalties, but yet again he does nothing.

Talented playmakers criminally underused on the bench game after game.

We can do better, we have the talent, that is beyond doubt.

He got things wrong against the best team in the competition, while taking one of, if not, the youngest squads to the final.

And so he should be sacked.

 

But you wouldn't be applying the same standards to Howe if he was hired?

Edited by JamesBCFC
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28 minutes ago, Bullbag said:

The real reason I want rid is because GS hasn't learnt a thing since Croatia in WC 2018. Outplayed and overrun in midfield and failed to address it, only this time around he had more strength in depth to actually come on and change it. Everyone could see that an Italy goal was coming and we very lucky it wasn't over before extra time and penalties, but yet again he does nothing.

Talented playmakers criminally underused on the bench game after game.

We can do better, we have the talent, that is beyond doubt.

We were for the middle hour v Italy….but I’d say it’s actually one area we’ve improved massively.  Compare like for like….Croatia 2018, Croatia 2021.  Seeing them play around us for fun in 2018, us struggle to keep the ball, etc, etc.  Now what about this tourny?  Controlled large parts of the, reduced Modric’s ability to get on the ball, etc, etc.  Far too easy to throw statements in like “overrun in midfield” when we’ve been anything but for virtually all of the tourny.

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The way we controlled the ball in the Denmark semi against a side ranked in top 10. A joy to watch. We are close - its now a question if GS makes us a bit braver when 1-0 versus the very best. And I'm willing to give it to Qatar to see if he can after the progress made.

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4 minutes ago, Bullbag said:

Right, ok well let's keep making the same mistakes whenever we come up against the best sides, and never win anything.

This squad had all of the pace and ammunition to hurt Italy, but apart from the first 10-15 mins didn't get behind there ageing defence all night. Yet the options we had on the bench weren't utilised.

Time to get someone in who does.

Got no time to waste with the talent we have right now.

We could of won this if Southgate had the bollocks to use what he had but he didn't, he bottled it.

He made mistakes in the final, but he also got us there.

Funny how that part is always ignored.

(Cue easy draws, etc).

OK, well we were comfortable against a strong, if out of form, German side, comfortable against the runners up of the last World Cup, and dismantled Ukraine, were all over Denmark throughout extra time and no manager gets everything right in every game.

 

The fact is (and really you should be aware of this by now), you can't and won't get things to go how you want every game. 

 

Southgate learned and adapted from the 2018 loss to Croatia, he perhaps overadjusted in some areas, but he made the right corrections.

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Further, if we approached the game with Italy all guns blazing throughout and then lost, the exact same people would be saying "why did Southgate change from what had got us to the final?" 

He'd have been (rightly) lambasted for throwing an approach that had been successful to that point to one side and then losing.

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5 minutes ago, Bullbag said:

Agree with that,

But this what I fear, is Gareth caple of being just that bit braver?

I'm not so sure.

He will if he feels we have a better defence I think. Ie part of the reason we did so well was the protection was so good in front of it. Let's not get away from the fact we were probably the width of a post away from winning the tournament and Italy haven't lost for 34 games so they aren't exactly easy to beat. And nor are we - lost twice 21 matches and one was with 10 men v Denmark. A game we actually dominated even with 10 men. 

He 100% deserves the chance to try again in Qatar after the progress we've made.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We were for the middle hour v Italy….but I’d say it’s actually one area we’ve improved massively.  Compare like for like….Croatia 2018, Croatia 2021.  Seeing them play around us for fun in 2018, us struggle to keep the ball, etc, etc.  Now what about this tourny?  Controlled large parts of the, reduced Modric’s ability to get on the ball, etc, etc.  Far too easy to throw statements in like “overrun in midfield” when we’ve been anything but for virtually all of the tourny.

I'd say Croatia are an aging team whose legs were if not gone on their way out in a number of players and there other world class player is retired!

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As much as I'd like GS to leave. Don't feel there is much point with the WC in 16 months time. The squad appear to have a strong bond and gel together more so than any other english squad we've seen in decades, and I think GS is a factor in that.

Southgate needs to focus more on what we can potentially do to the opposition. Rather than what the opposition can do to us. Has to drop one of the defensive midfielders and replace with either Mount/Foden/Grealish. While having either Sterling, Sancho, or Saka covering the wings. 

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I've been thinking about this some more and, being completely honest about it, if he announced his departure today I wouldn't be disappointed.

I have doubted him before and of course we have had great recent success under him. Despite his success I still have nagging doubts about his decision making (Sunday and the Croatia game) when the stakes are high. Of course though he got it spot on against Germany.

I don't really enjoy his style of football either. We are functional and robust, and clearly becoming increasingly effective at tournament football. I just feel with the strength and depth we have on the bench in attacking areas that the talent we have is being wasted.

Lastly the penalty fiasco. From players who'd barely warmed up to making Saka take one is a big concern. It could very easily have a huge impact on Saka for the rest of his career. The poor guy had barely played in front of crowds before and never taken a competitive penalty. He wasn't playing especially well either. I appreciate the balls he himself has shown in taking one - but the repercussions of that miss on his confidence could knock him back a huge amount. Southgate knows as well as anyone how cruel a penalty shootout can be.

The issue is who would replace him. There are a couple of managers who'd really excite me (Rodgers, Bielsa) but neither are English and there's no guarantee they'd even want the job. The English talent pool seems fairly small and I could see the FA going for someone like Eddie Howe who I'm not convinced would do much better. 

On balance it's probably fair to give Southgate the next World Cup. He's earned that chance. I hope he spends the next 16 months or so finding ways to fit our attacking talent into an effective 11. If we under perform at that World Cup I can see Steven Gerrard being an attractive choice assuming he keeps doing well with Rangers. Perhaps Graham Potter who I also really rate. 

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3 hours ago, Bullbag said:

Not sure how you say Southgate had learned from the Croatia game, for me clearly not. Both games we scored early and then sat back far to deep and got battered for the rest of the game, no outlet, no one to collect and keep hold of the ball, only this time he had players, talented and dangerous players ready and waiting who could grab the game by the scruff of the neck, but he failed to.

Haven't wanted him out until after watching that, you only had to hear the home crowd silent for the last 70 odd minutes to realise they had seen this all before in the last major tournament and knew exactly what was coming.

Don't get me wrong, Italy are a fabulous side and were my pick after the way they swept aside Turkey and the Swiss.

The players are all heroes and deserve all of the credit but were let down at the last minute by a manager failing to address what everyone could see with their own eyes.

We could and should of done better.

In fact it was more the feeling of disappointment rather than being gutted because it was so easy to see which way it was going.

To actually play for penalties with our dismal record? Absolutely baffling.

Quite amazing that apparently ‘we could all’ see the solution but Southgate apparently couldn’t!  Has it struck you that possibly your idea of what Southgate should have done might not have worked either?  There was another team on the pitch after all...

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1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Quite amazing that apparently ‘we could all’ see the solution but Southgate apparently couldn’t!  Has it struck you that possibly your idea of what Southgate should have done might not have worked either?  There was another team on the pitch after all...

But surely you have to try something? Let’s be honest for 2m in wages it’s kind of your job to out think the opposition manager 

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4 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

The way we controlled the ball in the Denmark semi against a side ranked in top 10. A joy to watch. We are close - its now a question if GS makes us a bit braver when 1-0 versus the very best. And I'm willing to give it to Qatar to see if he can after the progress made.

Might be hard to judge GS in Qatar, it will be very hard to see any European team doing well in Qatar in that intense heat.  Saying that, I can't see him staying on after the WC anyway.

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12 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I'm still befuddled that people are actively calling for his head.

It appears that literally nothing barring winning every tourney is sufficient. 

Mind boggles as to why we have that expectation when we've one win to our name, ever. 

Semi finals of each tournament automatically puts you as best in the world, finals as one of the best two and still that's not enough.. Madness 

It's more nuanced than that. The doubts aren't necessarily about our performance as a macro factor but fall into a few main themes..

  1. Tactical decision making in key matches (Croatia 2018, Sunday)
  2. Seemingly naïve penalty shootout strategy
  3. Unexciting style of play and failing to get the most out of our attacking talent

These seem to be the main 3 issues that people have. I think it's totally correct to examine those and question whether another manager could get more from the squad. In terms of pressure and expectation it's arguably the biggest job in international football.

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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Realisitically we need 3  tournaments before we could win one.   The cap and age profiles aren't high enough when you look at other successful sides.  The German side of 2014 came together mostly in 2010 and went 2010 Semi, 2012 Semi, 2014 Winners.  We're actually doing better and the 10 or so games before the World Cup will allow him to give the younger players more experience and really establish themselves. I wouldn't be surprised to see players like Walker left out now in order to get the likes of James more gametime but still be part of the world cup squad.  I don't think there will be many changes to the squad from now on basically.  Likes of Bellingham and White probably 2 who may become more central.

 

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's more nuanced than that. The doubts aren't necessarily about our performance as a macro factor but fall into a few main themes..

  1. Tactical decision making in key matches (Croatia 2018, Sunday)
  2. Seemingly naïve penalty shootout strategy
  3. Unexciting style of play and failing to get the most out of our attacking talent

These seem to be the main 3 issues that people have. I think it's totally correct to examine those and question whether another manager could get more from the squad. In terms of pressure and expectation it's arguably the biggest job in international football.

Realistically, given the omnishambles in 2016 after Iceland then Big Sam, who on earth could have done a better job?  

 

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1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Realisitically we need 3  tournaments before we could win one.   The cap and age profiles aren't high enough when you look at other successful sides.  The German side of 2014 came together mostly in 2010 and went 2010 Semi, 2012 Semi, 2014 Winners.  We're actually doing better and the 10 or so games before the World Cup will allow him to give the younger players more experience and really establish themselves. I wouldn't be surprised to see players like Walker left out now in order to get the likes of James more gametime but still be part of the world cup squad.  I don't think there will be many changes to the squad from now on basically.  Likes of Bellingham and White probably 2 who may become more central.

 

Realistically, given the omnishambles in 2016 after Iceland then Big Sam, who on earth could have done a better job?  

 

Funnily enough I think Allardyce might've done a pretty good job with us. He's a far more astute manager than most people think.

Then again, I'd never have expected England to reach a semi final and then a final after 2016 which is obviously a huge achievement from Southgate.

I think the two stand out English candidates over the next 5 years or so will probably be Potter or Gerrard. 

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46 minutes ago, Rob k said:

But surely you have to try something? Let’s be honest for 2m in wages it’s kind of your job to out think the opposition manager 

He switched to a back 4 right after they scored when he brought Saka on for Trippier - an attacking substitution. He than brought on Henderson for Rice, the former a far more likely potential goalscorer than the latter. 

So he didn't sit there and do nothing, he made positive changes to try and effect the game.

But it seems we have a few on here that are from the Dean Holden school of management, where the answer to how to win a game you are struggling in is easy - throw on all your attacking players. Doesn't quite work like that and the Italians may well have picked us off and won the game inside 90 minutes. And how he would've been slaughtered if that had of happened. 

Personally, I just think the Italians were slightly better than us. More experience, more nous, and an air of invincibility about them - 34 games unbeaten is a remarkable achievement. I picked them before the tournament to win and so it proved. Think they'd have beaten anyone on Sunday night to be honest. 

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4 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Realisitically we need 3  tournaments before we could win one.   The cap and age profiles aren't high enough when you look at other successful sides.  The German side of 2014 came together mostly in 2010 and went 2010 Semi, 2012 Semi, 2014 Winners.  We're actually doing better and the 10 or so games before the World Cup will allow him to give the younger players more experience and really establish themselves. I wouldn't be surprised to see players like Walker left out now in order to get the likes of James more gametime but still be part of the world cup squad.  I don't think there will be many changes to the squad from now on basically.  Likes of Bellingham and White probably 2 who may become more central.

Agreed. My concern is the lack of forward coming through. One might emerge from nowhere, but considering Kane is 28 he may only have 4 more years of being at the top of his game so this has to be something to consider. His style of play may age pretty well though as Lewandowski's has provided he looks after himself. I like DCL but I don't think he's at Kane's level and neither is Rashford.

We have been fairly fortunate that since the late 80s we've had at least one world class forward - Lineker, Shearer, Owen, Rooney, Kane. Arguably Rooney was on a decline pre-2016 however. 

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16 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's more nuanced than that. The doubts aren't necessarily about our performance as a macro factor but fall into a few main themes..

  1. Tactical decision making in key matches (Croatia 2018, Sunday)
  2. Seemingly naïve penalty shootout strategy
  3. Unexciting style of play and failing to get the most out of our attacking talent

These seem to be the main 3 issues that people have. I think it's totally correct to examine those and question whether another manager could get more from the squad. In terms of pressure and expectation it's arguably the biggest job in international football.

When you look at who in the squad had prior penalty-taking experience and their conversion record, the five takers selected looks pretty sound judgement. Sterling's penalty record is rubbish (he's missed more than he's scored) and I think Grealish had only taken one previously (five years ago in a youth game!!). 

You surely have to assume that when they practiced penalties in training over the past two weeks, the coaches were keeping record of who was converting the most and of course they have psychological appraisals of all the players so know which ones are mentally robust enough to take one under pressure.

Rashford's penalty record is excellent - 15 out of 17 scored - yet he misses by a few inches. Sometimes you just can't legislate for that. And managers have brought players on late in games before specifically to take penalties. Rashford scores, we win, and there would be nil criticism. 

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18 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He switched to a back 4 right after they scored when he brought Saka on for Trippier - an attacking substitution. He than brought on Henderson for Rice, the former a far more likely potential goalscorer than the latter. 

So he didn't sit there and do nothing, he made positive changes to try and effect the game.

But it seems we have a few on here that are from the Dean Holden school of management, where the answer to how to win a game you are struggling in is easy - throw on all your attacking players. Doesn't quite work like that and the Italians may well have picked us off and won the game inside 90 minutes. And how he would've been slaughtered if that had of happened. 

Personally, I just think the Italians were slightly better than us. More experience, more nous, and an air of invincibility about them - 34 games unbeaten is a remarkable achievement. I picked them before the tournament to win and so it proved. Think they'd have beaten anyone on Sunday night to be honest. 

Agree with all of that.

I don't think Southgate could do a lot more than he did, he kept us in the game till the end despite Italy being the better team. 

I also picked Italy to win the tournament some time before the first game - couldn't believe the odds for the form side. Bitter sweet as I got a nice payout - but would have preferred an England win.

The manager and players did us proud imo.

Onto the World Cup next year....

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It is amazing how many people critiquing Southgate's approach against Italy forget that the opponents are also trying to win the game. For too many years England managers have succumb to media pressure to play big name players. Southgate hasn't bowed down to fans demands and has always picked his own team which, in the overwhelming majority of cases. has provided results. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

When you look at who in the squad had prior penalty-taking experience and their conversion record, the five takers selected looks pretty sound judgement. Sterling's penalty record is rubbish (he's missed more than he's scored) and I think Grealish had only taken one previously (five years ago in a youth game!!). 

You surely have to assume that when they practiced penalties in training over the past two weeks, the coaches were keeping record of who was converting the most and of course they have psychological appraisals of all the players so know which ones are mentally robust enough to take one under pressure.

Rashford's penalty record is excellent - 15 out of 17 scored - yet he misses by a few inches. Sometimes you just can't legislate for that. And managers have brought players on late in games before specifically to take penalties. Rashford scores, we win, and there would be nil criticism. 

True. I think unfortunately Rashford's penalty miss was enormous psychologically and probably was the decisive pen really. I've watched the shootout back just now and Sancho and then Saka are noticeably uneasy on their runup after that miss. 

Easy to say now but I would've liked to have seen Trippier stay on and take one and perhaps Henderson too. I hope Saka has lots of support around him.

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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Great tournament and all did well. Including Southgate, but I have this gnawing thought that if Mancini was manager of England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 we would have won it? 

First 20 -25 we were all over them, rest is history yet GS never changed it when they were control, and we never managed to get at those defenders with all that pace. 

God knows how we will do playing in the desert (or any European nation for that matter) in next years World Cup.  That Blatter has a lot to answer for. Sure GS will take us there. 

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40 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He switched to a back 4 right after they scored when he brought Saka on for Trippier - an attacking substitution. He than brought on Henderson for Rice, the former a far more likely potential goalscorer than the latter. 

So he didn't sit there and do nothing, he made positive changes to try and effect the game.

But it seems we have a few on here that are from the Dean Holden school of management, where the answer to how to win a game you are struggling in is easy - throw on all your attacking players. Doesn't quite work like that and the Italians may well have picked us off and won the game inside 90 minutes. And how he would've been slaughtered if that had of happened. 

Personally, I just think the Italians were slightly better than us. More experience, more nous, and an air of invincibility about them - 34 games unbeaten is a remarkable achievement. I picked them before the tournament to win and so it proved. Think they'd have beaten anyone on Sunday night to be honest. 

I don’t think it was about bringing on as many attacking players as we could, we had to get hold of the ball and keep it, we had the players to do that on the bench and to bring Sterling and Kane in to the game which would have given us a better chance of winning the game. 

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I would like to see Foden and Grealish become nailed on starters. I think Mount is a very useful player but he's not as gifted as those two and was very poor on Sunday. I think Foden is potentially a generational talent at the level of Rooney so we must play him - just as Spain do with Pedri. Grealish has obvious x-factor and hopefully his potential move to Man City will cement him as a regular starter. 

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59 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

When you look at who in the squad had prior penalty-taking experience and their conversion record, the five takers selected looks pretty sound judgement. Sterling's penalty record is rubbish (he's missed more than he's scored) and I think Grealish had only taken one previously (five years ago in a youth game!!). 

You surely have to assume that when they practiced penalties in training over the past two weeks, the coaches were keeping record of who was converting the most and of course they have psychological appraisals of all the players so know which ones are mentally robust enough to take one under pressure.

Rashford's penalty record is excellent - 15 out of 17 scored - yet he misses by a few inches. Sometimes you just can't legislate for that. And managers have brought players on late in games before specifically to take penalties. Rashford scores, we win, and there would be nil criticism. 

I largely agree, but the bloke had barely kicked a ball all tournament

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