green football shirts to be banned?

[Tinmans Love Child]

23 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

An update.

After the Boro v City game in the summer I emailed the Club/SLO/SC&T to ask if they (and Hummel) would take the FA/FIFA guidelines - linked in the quoted post below - into consideration when designing next seasons kits, and if possible, when deciding what kit to wear in each match. The SC&T (I think @Blagdon red perhaps?) brought this to the clubs attention in one of their recent Zoom meetings. I have been told that although it was the final item on a very lengthy agenda, Richard Gould and the others said that yes, they would consider the guidance and take it into consideration.

This is great news. As a club we already have three traditional distinctive kits - Red/White home, White/Black away, and Purple/Green third. With those three colour palettes to choose from we really should be able to have a kit clash that works for everyone in every game we play. 

We will see what we get in in the spring, but I am hopeful we won't have too many repeats of the Celtic friendly, the Boro game, or even to a lesser extent last night's match with Millwall.

@Leveller @Tinmans Love Child @Slacker

[Oh Louie louie]

Recall, fergie blaming man u getting hammered, because soton, wore a shirt colour.

Bit of a cheek, they scored some crackers that day.

[ExiledAjax]

38 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

[ExiledAjax]

19 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

I’ve always believed that competing teams had to wear contrasting shirts, shorts and socks so that players and officials could have no possibility to mistake combatants in the heat of battle. Has this rule been changed or was it an oversight by everybody’s favourite kitman which was sanctioned by the referee? 

I googled around a bit and found this article about last season's Liverpool v Man Utd game. There was a pretty terrible kit blend going on in this game where Liverpool wore red and Utd wore what is apparently very dark green, but that looks black to me and to most other colourblind people.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12192651/liverpool-vs-manchester-united-colour-blind-fans-angry-as-they-struggle-to-tell-kits-apart

In the article there is an explanation as to how teams in the Prem choose kits. Now this may be Prem only, and may not extend to the EFL, but it's interesting to see what goes into the decision. Relevant sections quoted and my bold additions:

Sources have told Sky Sports News that the Premier League uses online software to ensure that the kits selected for both teams in all fixtures are identifiably different colours and that they have worked with developers to build a tool which identifies the best kit combinations for individuals that are colour blind.

While Albany-Ward [Kathryn Albany-Ward, CEO of Colour Blind Awareness] acknowledges that and has seen the software for herself, she points out that Premier League clubs are not forced to follow the kit guidelines they receive.

"The procedure as I understand it is that the clubs submit the kits they want to wear 10 days in advance and the Premier League will run the software," she said.

"Then they will give them feedback, not just on the kit clash for the two sets of outfield players, but they will look at the goalkeeper kits and whether or not there might be a clash with the match officials.

"They then go back to the clubs and tell them the information the software has given them.

"Whichever 20 clubs are in the Premier League during the season are the Premier League and if the clubs themselves decide they want to override what the [Premier League] administrators tell them, they do."

Apparently in this game Utd were told that the dark green/black kit would be bad...so they changed the socks and went with it anyway. *****.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[jimmyb]

6 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Recall, fergie blaming man u getting hammered, because soton, wore a shirt colour.

Bit of a cheek, they scored some crackers that day.

I think it was the other way round wasn’t it? 

Didn’t Utd wear a greyish colour that they couldn’t see against the crowd so they changed shirts at half time. 

Really interesting topic this - I don’t suffer myself but have a friend who came close to making it as a pro but had real problems as he was colourblind.

if you listen to the price of football podcast there was an excellent interview with the head of colour blind awareness which is absolutely fascinating.

They even made the point of in the Euro final the referees kit potentially being indistinguishable to Italy if you’re colourblind and two Italian players were noted to have passed the ball to the referee during the game. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/reading-points-deduction-colour-blind-awareness-interview/id1482886394?i=1000536339483

Seems to me it’s an easy fix for the game to sort this - just isn’t the necessary level of awareness.

[ExiledAjax]

47 minutes ago, jimmyb said:

Really interesting topic this - I don’t suffer myself but have a friend who came close to making it as a pro but had real problems as he was colourblind.

I have mentioned to the Club that they might consider getting an optometrist in to check all the players. A simple Ishihara test takes a few minutes and can give a good indication.

if you listen to the price of football podcast there was an excellent interview with the head of colour blind awareness which is absolutely fascinating.

They even made the point of in the Euro final the referees kit potentially being indistinguishable to Italy if you’re colourblind and two Italian players were noted to have passed the ball to the referee during the game. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/reading-points-deduction-colour-blind-awareness-interview/id1482886394?i=1000536339483

Thank you for this. Interesting to hear Maguire's experience, I didn't know he was a fellow person with colourblindness. He is totally correct to say that "it doesn't stop you playing sport, but it slows you down..." that, in a nutshell, is the issue. Half a second, a second, that's the delay we're talking about, and in a fast paced game like football, whether you're watching, playing, or officiating, that can be all the time it takes to make an error.

Albany-Ward also makes a good point about colours used around the stadium, or for example online if a club uses green to show available seats and red to show unavailable seats. It does affect people beyond just the kits on the pitch. Here even I am guilty of really not considering the full impact. As I have previously said I would rate my severity at about a 5 or 6 out of 10. I tend to find the tube map absolutely fine tbh - but those with worse sight than mine can have real issues with more commonplace stuff, and I have not always thought about that.

For those who want to listen, and it is a great discussion to listen to if you have any interest in this topic, it starts about 37 minutes into the episode from 23 September.

Seems to me it’s an easy fix for the game to sort this - just isn’t the necessary level of awareness.

Our club and CEO are now aware, and hopefully are looking into it. I'll certainly keep badgering them about it!

Cheers mate, my thoughts above.

Finally, if anyone reading this thread thinks they or a family member or friend might be colourblind, I suggest reading this website https://www.colourblindawareness.org/. You could also speak to an optometrist who can help you with the (quite fun) Ishihara test.

[Davefevs]

 

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Wonderful. It would still require sensible design, and sensible decision making, but it's a huge step forward. Presumably will allow 3rd kits as well if neither home nor away is appropriate. 

[RedM]

I just posted this on another thread in response to someone saying white is a no no due to colourblindness after someone suggested the away shirt would be white:

 

THE QUOTE; "Absolutely no chance given Colour blindness issues. I’d hope we weren’t that insensitive"

 

MY QUESTION; Serious question. Is white an issue for people with colourblindness? I know very little about this condition, never known anyone with it (by that I mean a friend or relative) so I am pretty much ignorant apart from being aware of the obvious red/green yellow/blue used in simple tests. 

If white is a serious issue as I think you are saying, what colour kits are the best options. I guess the condition must vary so much for each individual its difficult to say but is white one of the worst options?

Edited 3 minutes ago by RedM

[1960maaan]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

While this is a sensible step, I think just a little common sense and forethought would be good.
Most , or many clubs have 3 kits, so in those choices there should be one which doesn't cause problems. The thing seems to be there has be absolutely no consideration of the problem before now. 
Everything has to start with consultation, a simple 2 minute chat with someone that has or understands the issues would prevent the vast majority of problems. Until recently they just haven't cared.

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I just posted this on another thread in response to someone saying white is a no no due to colourblindness after someone suggested the away shirt would be white:

 

THE QUOTE; "Absolutely no chance given Colour blindness issues. I’d hope we weren’t that insensitive"

 

MY QUESTION; Serious question. Is white an issue for people with colourblindness? I know very little about this condition, never known anyone with it (by that I mean a friend or relative) so I am pretty much ignorant apart from being aware of the obvious red/green yellow/blue used in simple tests. 

If white is a serious issue as I think you are saying, what colour kits are the best options. I guess the condition must vary so much for each individual its difficult to say but is white one of the worst options?

Edited 3 minutes ago by RedM

Like yourself I don't know much about the condition and rather like yourself I thought that white is a colour that is a good choice. As in American sports one team (usually the home team) wears white and in the Euros last year nearly every match one nation were playing in white to help, I was given to understand, with this condition. I understood that the problem is with green kits that look red to those with colour blindness

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I just posted this on another thread in response to someone saying white is a no no due to colourblindness after someone suggested the away shirt would be white:

 

THE QUOTE; "Absolutely no chance given Colour blindness issues. I’d hope we weren’t that insensitive"

 

MY QUESTION; Serious question. Is white an issue for people with colourblindness? I know very little about this condition, never known anyone with it (by that I mean a friend or relative) so I am pretty much ignorant apart from being aware of the obvious red/green yellow/blue used in simple tests. 

If white is a serious issue as I think you are saying, what colour kits are the best options. I guess the condition must vary so much for each individual its difficult to say but is white one of the worst options?

Edited 3 minutes ago by RedM

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

[handsofclay]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

Cheers ExiledAjax that's really described it well, in fact judging from that the likes of Plymouth can continue at times to play in their traditional green as long as the opposition wear a kit, most likely white, that doesn't cause issues for the 10% with the condition.

This all seems sensible and fair to me and only requires a bit of cooperation and planning between clubs. 

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Cheers ExiledAjax that's really described it well, in fact judging from that the likes of Plymouth can continue at times to play in their traditional green as long as the opposition wear a kit, most likely white, that doesn't cause issues for the 10% with the condition.

This all seems sensible and fair to me and only requires a bit of cooperation and planning between clubs. 

Absolutely. Plymouth have a long history of wearing all green. That's unfortunate...but ok. They should just make sure they have an alternative kit like all white, or all light blue, or fluoro yellow. AND THEN WEAR IT when suitable. This new rule can help them do that.

I'd repeat as well that the condition is far from uniform. What I've said here and on other threads is a generalised view. There will be people for whom other specific issues are more acute. There are 3 main variants of colourblindness, and within those there are many levels of severity. Like many disabilities qnd conditions it's not a one size fits all fix. That said, simple, easy solutions can really minimise the impact.

[Dredd]

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

[Red Army 75]

Being colourblind I struggle with certain shades of certain colours. Brown- Red etc. Never had a problem watching football as the colours are totally opposite. Only one I have ever had trouble with is the Bournemouth game last season 

[ExiledAjax]

36 minutes ago, Dredd said:

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

Edited June 10, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[RedM]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

That makes perfect sense and was my understanding too about being able to distinguish.

I'm old enough to remember black and white TV's and we managed then when the clubs were sensible about kit clashes!

My theory is as we have a red shirt for home, which I would say is dark, then we are going to the opposite choice of colour for our away. The obvious is white but could be light green, pale yellow, peach, pink etc if colour blindness or kit clashes are taken into consideration.

[Offside]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

You’re not alone, I find black v red really difficult as well. 

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, RedM said:

That makes perfect sense and was my understanding too about being able to distinguish.

I'm old enough to remember black and white TV's and we managed then when the clubs were sensible about kit clashes!

My theory is as we have a red shirt for home, which I would say is dark, then we are going to the opposite choice of colour for our away. The obvious is white but could be light green, pale yellow, peach, pink etc if colour blindness or kit clashes are taken into consideration.

Thanks for understanding. Unfortunately, in general those pastel colours you describe prove quite ineffectual. As I said above, it's not a cut and try issue, but for quite a few people they don't work when you play a team in white, or in a darker shade of that same colour. So to avoid that you either need to go full white or you need a fluoro element. As @handsofclay mentioned, the NFL in America has it pretty much sorted. Every team has a dark kit and a white kit and they just always make sure one is in dark and one is white, refs where the black and white stripes. As you mention/allude to, that's a quirk of that sport being invented and set up in the TV - particularly black and white TV - era, whereas our sport pre-dates that.

Ultimately, there is lots of high level, professional guidance published by UEFA and the FA. It's all drawn up in conjunction with charities like the Colourblind Awareness Association - more info here https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness-and-sport/. It is not difficult for clubs and manufacturers to read this and I will be straight onto Gould if we have a green away kit and don't have a good 3rd kit..

Another interesting doc is here from 2018 https://www.colourblindawareness.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Colour-Blind-Awareness-Report-of-Fans-Focus-Group.pdf. It raises another personal pet peeve - the use of red/green/orange on ticketing web pages to indicate unavailable/available/limited supply etc, or to indicate different pricing bands. It can be really, really tricky to use that (also see theatre websites, cinemas, any other audience ticket service.

FYI the reason the Prem isn't doing something like this is Sky and the TV companies. - they want certain colours for certain teams, and they want certain match ups approved and then not changed so that they can set their broadcast saturation levels etc. They have the £ so they have the power. 

[Red-Robbo]

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

Why would a red shirt be an issue?

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Why would a red shirt be an issue?

 

 Can't tell if you're joking or not... 

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

For a blue shirt , that’s not bad 

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

 Can't tell if you're joking or not... 

On a digital screen, motionless, set against white, I can see the green. I'm joking. Others though may not see any green at all on that shirt.

But on a pitch, moving, it would be hard for almost everyone...surely even 'normal' sighted people would have a bit of an issue?

This highlights another issue. Kits are designed and displayed without motion, using often false, digital colours, and set against a plain white background. They often look brilliant. Then they are used in the real world and quelle surprise they they look a little different. They get wet, they can't be seen against the busy background of a crowd or pitch, the unnatural light of a floodlight makes weird shadows appear or just changes the colour entirely. 

Charities are asking manufacturers to be smarter when designing kits, and to maybe just try them out on a few backgrounds to check they still work.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

On a digital screen, motionless, set against white, I can see the green. I'm joking. Others though may not see any green at all on that shirt.

But on a pitch, moving, it would be hard for almost everyone...surely even 'normal' sighted people would have a bit of an issue?

This highlights another issue. Kits are designed and displayed without motion, using often false, digital colours, and set against a plain white background. They often look brilliant. Then they are used in the real world and quelle surprise they they look a little different. They get wet, they can't be seen against the busy background of a crowd or pitch, the unnatural light of a floodlight makes weird shadows appear or just changes the colour entirely. 

Charities are asking manufacturers to be smarter when designing kits, and to maybe just try them out on a few backgrounds to check they still work.

 

It's not shirt colours or patterns that create a difficulty for us non-colour blind (but no longer in possession of 20/20 vision) folks, it's the contrast in the numbers/names with the shirt.

Bournemouth at AG last season was particularly bad. Black lettering on a dark green shirt. I couldn't easily make out who was who from my perch in Row 34. 

[MarcusX]

On 16/07/2021 at 19:07, Maltshoveller said:

Do you drive a BMW?

Off topic but we’ve just bought a new BMW. I don’t know if it’s a deliberate ploy to make people indicate but the lane assist function is so forceful it makes it almost impossible to change lanes without indicating 

[GreedyHarry]

3 hours ago, Dredd said:

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

For me yes. If only one team was striped and the other was one colour that is pretty perfect. Any kind of shape differentiation is always helpful.

[GreedyHarry]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

Black and red is absolutely the worst because it is so unexpected by everybody else.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, GreedyHarry said:

For me yes. If only one team was striped and the other was one colour that is pretty perfect. Any kind of shape differentiation is always helpful.

Yeh, Croatia v Portugal normally isn't an issue.