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Basement Rovers dustbin thread


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1 hour ago, big dosser said:

the sad thing is many women do the same as they live in fear of there other halfs,so a bully boy barton and other bullys gets away with it.

The other sad thing is many put up with it because they feel they couldn't cope financially, by splitting up. Witnessed this myself with a former girlfriend's Dad, who beat his wife.

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42 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Except isn’t it irrelevant now?  She got the police involved at the time and her statement then is evidence. They seem convinced that an assault had taken place and reported it to the CPS. Understand it will be tougher if she doesn’t give evidence but the CPS saw enough there to get this far. Whether or not she wants to press things almost doesn’t matter. Her choices now are:

1) Giving evidence (which may involve perjury if she isn’t honest or

2) Accepting a charge of wasting police time. 
 

neither option will be bery attractive to her. 

In my opinion (former criminal lawyer) 1) & 2) won't happen, largely becuase it would send an awful message to those who may wish to raise a domestic violence complaint in future. As for 1), I guess there could be a witness summons for her attendance (not even sure the judge/mags would go for that, nor whether the CPS would even ask for one), but if she then appears at court, and takes the stand, the prosecution would have to treat her as a hostile witness and cross examine her on any original statement (is there even one?); as you can imagine, cross-examining your own witness is not a good look, and in the absence of independent evidence, is a tough ask for the prosecutor. Regards 2), there is a potential for it to happen, but would have to be an extreme case (think serious sexual offence allegations).

So we are left with the 999 call, and bodycam (likely only showing any aftermath)...potential for a bad character application perhaps (although hard for me to say without reviewing the file).

Unless I am missing something, this case will be incredibly difficult to secure a conviction on, if it even gets that far and the CPS do offer evidence. The prosecutor on the day will have their work cut out, and will not have been the one who made the decision to charge/progress with the matter. I know there are good policy reasons why domestic abuse convictions should be pursued in the absence of the complainant's support, but that doesn't make it any easier for the lawyer on the day.

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5 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

In my opinion (former criminal lawyer) 1) & 2) won't happen, largely becuase it would send an awful message to those who may wish to raise a domestic violence complaint in future. As for 1), I guess there could be a witness summons for her attendance (not even sure the judge/mags would go for that, nor whether the CPS would even ask for one), but if she then appears at court, and takes the stand, the prosecution would have to treat her as a hostile witness and cross examine her on any original statement (is there even one?); as you can imagine, cross-examining your own witness is not a good look, and in the absence of independent evidence, is a tough ask for the prosecutor.

So we are left with the 999 call, and bodycam (likely only showing any aftermath)...potential for a bad character application perhaps (although hard for me to say without reviewing the file).

Unless I am missing something, this case will be incredibly difficult to secure a conviction on, if it even gets that far and the CPS do offer evidence. The prosecutor on the day will have their work cut out, and will not have been the one who made the decision to charge/progress with the matter. I know there are good policy reasons why domestic abuse convictions should be pursued in the absence of the complainant's support, but that doesn't make it any easier for the lawyer on the day.

I bow to your superior knowledge/experience @Glastonbury Red, I am NO ONE’s idea of a lawyer 😀

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28 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Except isn’t it irrelevant now?  She got the police involved at the time and her statement then is evidence. They seem convinced that an assault had taken place and reported it to the CPS. Understand it will be tougher if she doesn’t give evidence but the CPS saw enough there to get this far. Whether or not she wants to press things almost doesn’t matter. Her choices now are:

1) Giving evidence (which may involve perjury if she isn’t honest or

2) Accepting a charge of wasting police time. 
 

neither option will be bery attractive to her. 

I'm fairly sure any report of domestic abuse / violence is now followed through even if the victim tries to retract their statement so i don't think she'd have any comeback on her

I had a friend go through this (honestly believe he did no wrong given the nature of events, long story) and the Police continued to investigate despite his Mrs taking back what she'd reported and insisting it was her drunken rage (the situation was all caused by someone else lying to her). Luckily there was no further action as she didn't have any signs of abuse, because he didnt touch her, and there was simply no evidence. Obviously suffice to say he did not stay with her much longer

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15 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I'm fairly sure any report of domestic abuse / violence is now followed through even if the victim tries to retract their statement so i don't think she'd have any comeback on her

I had a friend go through this (honestly believe he did no wrong given the nature of events, long story) and the Police continued to investigate despite his Mrs taking back what she'd reported and insisting it was her drunken rage (the situation was all caused by someone else lying to her). Luckily there was no further action as she didn't have any signs of abuse, because he didnt touch her, and there was simply no evidence. Obviously suffice to say he did not stay with her much longer

I would be surprised if there was a blanket rule that the CPS have to progress, in the event of a retraction, but I do think there is policy surrounding the examination/consideration of a retraction in these forms of cases, that might not exist say in offences against property etc. But yes, I am sure police are encouraged to delve deeper and not be perturbed by the faintest whiff of a retraction, and I think that is correct, all things considered (not saying being the target of baseless allegations would be comfortable).

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6 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

I would be surprised if there was a blanket rule that the CPS have to progress, in the event of a retraction, but I do think there is policy surrounding the examination/consideration of a retraction in these forms of cases, that might not exist say in offences against property etc. But yes, I am sure police are encouraged to delve deeper and not be perturbed by the faintest whiff of a retraction, and I think that is correct, all things considered (not saying being the target of baseless allegations would be comfortable).

You are right to say the CPS do not have to continue proceedings for domestic abuse cases however often they and the police do so even when the victim makes a retraction statement and / or no longer wants to support the prosecution. 
 

The law was changed relatively recently to allow this as it is now recognised that often domestic abuse situations are complex and if the perpetrator is controlling and abusive, as is often the case, then they will put pressure on the victim to retract. 

A victim in this context may not always realise or see themselves as a victim and the police’s intervention can and often does allow a break from the abuse for the first time (imposition of bail conditions for example) and for the victim to seek support from domestic abuse support services. 

The police may have other evidence such as injury photos of the victim, independent witness statements, cctv etc which may mean a realistic prospect of a conviction with or without the victims support. 

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1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

From what I’ve read on here they were at a friends without the kids, they don’t live in Kew so not sure that matters? 

They are selling their house in Kew for £8.5m I believe, mind you the source is a Fewer so based on past experience there is a chance that could be 100% made up off the top of his head, but it would make sense that they are visiting friends in the area if they have lived there and could easily have been staying at their house for the night. It clearly helps that the kids weren't there to see the mayhem of either Mum or Dad or even both making complete fools of themselves obviously but you would be expecting Social Services to start taking an interest after this. My Wife who worked with perpetrators of DV for twenty odd years seems to think there might well be a flag put on that family by Social Services now (Agencies seem to communicate with each other far more effectively than they ever used to following some high profile child deaths like Baby P) on the basis that children are involved (not in the incident obviously).

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16 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

I would be surprised if there was a blanket rule that the CPS have to progress, in the event of a retraction, but I do think there is policy surrounding the examination/consideration of a retraction in these forms of cases, that might not exist say in offences against property etc. But yes, I am sure police are encouraged to delve deeper and not be perturbed by the faintest whiff of a retraction, and I think that is correct, all things considered (not saying being the target of baseless allegations would be comfortable).

Thanks, yes you're probably right. Don't "have" to as such but certainly encouraged to dig deeper

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42 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

Never say never though; I recall one particular time in my career where I, as a prosecutor, secured what I would say was an 'un-deserving' conviction up in Birmingham - strange things do happen in court on occasion.

Hopefully just the one and not a certain 6.....

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4 hours ago, sglosbcfc said:

Gasheads talking about boycotting matches while he is in charge, one posted 'there could be a very low attendance for the first home game'. Serious point, would anyone notice if that was a boycott or their usual crowd?

I sincerely hope they put their point across with their feet. I would respect them for doing so.

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4 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

It is astonishing. I read a thread were rovers fans were destroying him whilst he was Fleetwood manager. Every expletive if you could think of. Then he becomes there manager and he is seen as a god. Not by all I may add . The bloke needs serious help to control his anger. Has no place managing in football

Asked about the latest incident from the Ragass Rovers messiah a spokesperson from the FTG Tote-Ender One Tooth 70's Aggro Supporters Club said "Yeah, dunno, fair play. Just get us a pre-season friendly against Sabadall (Sabadell) Joe, annit?"

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12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Looking at many of the properties in that area you may well be right.

 

13 minutes ago, Scrumpty said:

“allegedly grabbed Mrs Barton by the throat and kicked her in the head outside a property”

CCTV may come into play here, as well as bodycams!

I think the presence of CCTV footage & a defence of 'it didn't happen' would be difficult to reconcile.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

They are selling their house in Kew for £8.5m I believe, mind you the source is a Fewer so based on past experience there is a chance that could be 100% made up off the top of his head, 

Ahh, so in reality they’re selling a two up two down terrace house in Kirkby for £85,000...

Gotcha.

Edited by Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan
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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

From what I’ve read on here they were at a friends without the kids, they don’t live in Kew so not sure that matters? 

I read one article (Guardian, I think*) that said JB is a long time resident of Kew. He could presumably afford it. I doubt he still lives in Huyton.
 

*it was. The police described him as “of  Widnes”, so presumably has two or more homes.

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Without Mrs B giving evidence, here’s my informed opinion of what might make up the prosecution case:

1. The 999 call - we can see from the article that Mrs B called the police and said JB has throttled then kicked her. 
 

2. Upon police arrival they’ll have undoubtedly been wearing body worn video. It’ll be interesting to see at what point Mrs B retracted her accusation. Did she continue it to police upon their arrival? Did the two other people present tell the police what had happened and was this captured on body worn video?

 

3. the injury. Said to be a half golf ball sized lump. 
 

4. previous incidents between the two parties whether prosecuted or not. 
 

5. bad character. Now, we know JB likes the odd assault, but in order to be used as evidence is has to be pretty strikingly similar. You can’t just tell a judge - he’s got convictions for assault - there are proper and quite tough hoops to jump through to allow bad character to be allowed in a trial. 
 

6. CCTV - as someone mentioned above - this took place outside. There might be Cctv. 
 

all in all, cps only charge people if they think there’s a realistic prospect of conviction. So there’s definitely evidence here. Injury plus initial complaint is a good start - I wonder what else there might be… I wonder what JB’s behaviour was like when those officers and their body worn video turned up?!

 

it’ll be interesting that’s for sure.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Without Mrs B giving evidence, here’s my informed opinion of what might make up the prosecution case:

1. The 999 call - we can see from the article that Mrs B called the police and said JB has throttled then kicked her. 
 

2. Upon police arrival they’ll have undoubtedly been wearing body worn video. It’ll be interesting to see at what point Mrs B retracted her accusation. Did she continue it to police upon their arrival? Did the two other people present tell the police what had happened and was this captured on body worn video?

 

3. the injury. Said to be a half golf ball sized lump. 
 

4. previous incidents between the two parties whether prosecuted or not. 
 

5. bad character. Now, we know JB likes the odd assault, but in order to be used as evidence is has to be pretty strikingly similar. You can’t just tell a judge - he’s got convictions for assault - there are proper and quite tough hoops to jump through to allow bad character to be allowed in a trial. 
 

6. CCTV - as someone mentioned above - this took place outside. There might be Cctv. 
 

all in all, cps only charge people if they think there’s a realistic prospect of conviction. So there’s definitely evidence here. Injury plus initial complaint is a good start - I wonder what else there might be… I wonder what JB’s behaviour was like when those officers and their body worn video turned up?!

 

it’ll be interesting that’s for sure.

 

 

Thanks for that summary - very informative.

It seems that both parties were intoxicated - would have that any bearing on the validity of what either one of them said at the time?

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3 minutes ago, In the Net said:

Thanks for that summary - very informative.

It seems that both parties were intoxicated - would have that any bearing on the validity of what either one of them said at the time?

What do you want to happen ITN. How do you feel about it 

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3 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

Folks; whilst ok to discuss legal procedure in general terms, think before you post when discussing any case specifics. I’m not a mod or anything, but don’t want anyone/OTIB getting in trouble.

I think as long as everyone sticks to the reported facts, we’ll all be fine. 

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12 minutes ago, In the Net said:

Thanks for that summary - very informative.

It seems that both parties were intoxicated - would have that any bearing on the validity of what either one of them said at the time?

Not sure being incapable makes you compliant.

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16 minutes ago, In the Net said:

Thanks for that summary - very informative.

It seems that both parties were intoxicated - would have that any bearing on the validity of what either one of them said at the time?

Do you know - good question - I’m not sure but I think everyone would prefer if no one were intoxicated. 

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39 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Do you know - good question - I’m not sure but I think everyone would prefer if no one were intoxicated. 

Absolutely!  Must be difficult if you get called to a situation and both parties are four sheets to the wind.  Couldn't do your job for even one day. 

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55 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

What do you want to happen ITN. How do you feel about it 

A bit shell shocked really.  If he'd taken a swing at a bloke in a social situation, to be honest, I wouldn't have been that surprised - although I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to being a reformed character (sort of).  This is a whole different level for me - I am trying to remain open minded until everything is out in the public arena, and both sides have been heard.  Obviously something happened, but, with alcohol involved, either account could be a bit inacurate. 

I want justice to be served correctly, whichever way the hammer falls.  If our manager is found guilty of this, then of course he's out of the door straight away.

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1 minute ago, In the Net said:

A bit shell shocked really.  If he'd taken a swing at a bloke in a social situation, to be honest, I wouldn't have been that surprised - although I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to being a reformed character (sort of).  This is a whole different level for me - I am trying to remain open minded until everything is out in the public arena, and both sides have been heard.  Obviously something happened, but, with alcohol involved, either account could be a bit inacurate. 

I want justice to be served correctly, whichever way the hammer falls.  If our manager is found guilty of this, then of course he's out of the door straight away.

With his other court case hanging over him also .Should he be suspended 

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