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A couple more players and comparisons


Mr Popodopolous

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I think the summer recruitment has been decent but I worry about Simpson at RB. Wonder if we could've done with 2-3 more anyway, even on loans but no matter for the moment.

However is money entirely as tight as claimed? I make Sheffield Wednesday a similar FFP position to us going into this season and perhaps worse given relegation and the hit to income.

Charge over Hillsborough, problems paying wages for months. They released a lot of players but so did we, where is their pressure to sell. If Championship losses carry over in FFP...

IN:

Peacock-Farrell (Loan) Burnley

Wing (Loan) Middlesbrough

Byers (Unsure if Loan or fee) Swansea

Johnson (Free) Middlesbrough

They've also signed Hunt on a free after he left us, Jaden Brown on a free from Huddersfield, Aderian from Everton- half-season at Wycombe, loanees albeit young from QPR, Wolves and a striker on loan from St Gallen.

My gut feeling is that unless the 3 year rule is completely abolished for relegated sides, they are relatively aggressive in the market and especially in Covid times.

Sell to Buy

Well apart from £600k for Borner, who have they sold?

Off the top of my head.

Iorfa

Dunkley

Bannan (Robbored's fave).

Luongo

Windass

Paterson

All remain. There might be more who fit the category too. 

Seems strange that relegation in a Pandemic can almost help a Club who have been losing money for fun.

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  • The title was changed to A couple more players and comparisons
1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Subject to cost, could we not stretch to a couple of loanees?

Hasn't Pearson said he doesn't like loans?

We do have an extensive squad, I really think we should see if we can get the right combination out of those players first.

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2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Hasn't Pearson said he doesn't like loans?

We do have an extensive squad, I really think we should see if we can get the right combination out of those players first.

Sometimes in these times think a bit of flexibility needed.

Think our squad is not bad, but that we're 2-3 light. Worry about whether too many young players might be promoted too quickly but the experience could also be beneficial.

1 minute ago, steviestevieneville said:

Think vyner will be first choice right back 

Happy with Vyner at 1st choice RB, agreed. Just one injury or suspension away though from a worry in that position IMO. Hope I'm wrong.

Just wondering if there isn't scope for a couple more loanees- wide man and forward maybe.

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8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sometimes in these times think a bit of flexibility needed.

Think our squad is not bad, but that we're 2-3 light. Worry about whether too many young players might be promoted too quickly but the experience could also be beneficial.

I think we have to believe that Pearson has the experience and judgement to assess these players. I think our Academy is doing a good job, but sending players out on loan after loan becomes self defeating in that they can be dragged down to a level and pick up bad habits. Then you have the situation where "promising youngsters" are suddenly 24 years old, older than half the England Euro squad.

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41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sometimes in these times think a bit of flexibility needed.

Think our squad is not bad, but that we're 2-3 light. Worry about whether too many young players might be promoted too quickly but the experience could also be beneficial.

Happy with Vyner at 1st choice RB, agreed. Just one injury or suspension away though from a worry in that position IMO. Hope I'm wrong.

Just wondering if there isn't scope for a couple more loanees- wide man and forward maybe.

Not quite sure how we are 2-3 light. We have a 28 man squad which includes about 10 youngsters that we are seemingly looking to blood. We would be light in quality for a play off push but I don’t see that the play offs is the aim.  If we know there is a good chance we won’t achieve that then best to spend the season improving what we have which is a decent young(ish) squad, in the main 

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2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Not quite sure how we are 2-3 light. We have a 28 man squad which includes about 10 youngsters that we are seemingly looking to blood. We would be light in quality for a play off push but I don’t see that the play offs is the aim.  If we know there is a good chance we won’t achieve that then best to spend the season improving what we have which is a decent young(ish) squad, in the main 

Worry it's just too many, too soon- but perhaps I'm a bit risk-averse.

If it's a midtable season of building with some decent football and some decent results, and clear signs of progress- in that scenario a Cup run can be pretty welcome, it would be good but 10/28 from the Academy...feels too high, straight in, depending on the precise definition of the 10 youngsters, ie who they are- what age, experience etc. Think a lot need good development loans but time will tell.

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5 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

players out on loan after loan becomes self defeating

Absolutely.....and a recipe for a young (or not so young!) player to lose focus,,belief in the pathway - losing the will.

Mismanagement.

The right loan at the right time is fine....but - decisions need to be streamlined, made earlier in the afforsaid "process"....for the benefit of all concerned.

If your good enough (as I believe young Scott to be an example) then your old enough...

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As it stands we have 21 pros (irrespective of age) with more than 10 Championship appearances includes Semenyo, Massengo.

We then have a batch of youngsters (8) with less than 10 champ apps, one of whom has just 18 minutes.

We then have 3 with no experience at this level (HWR, Pring and Cundy - I’ve excluded Morton as he will be off…somewhere).

Backed up by:

Buse, Low, Benarous, Francois, Owers and Soady in reality.

Some will go out on loan, some are gonna have to be content with providing cover for the first team and getting their fix of u23 football and impressing in training, ready to take any opportunity that arises.

Its probably a bit light in terms of mid-age range players, but it’s keeping the wage bill as low as possible too.

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I was just reading about Tammy and a prospective move to Arsenal. They were talking about a 'loan with a duty to buy'. I've heard of 'loan with an option to buy' before but never this. Maybe it's a way of shifting the financial issues clubs lower down are clearly having yet allowing movement of players? I appreciate we're not signing Tammy BTW, more the idea of the deal in principle. Essentially, 'buy now, pay from next year'.

All well and good I suppose as long as we don't go back into lockdown.

Too risky?

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13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think the summer recruitment has been decent but I worry about Simpson at RB. Wonder if we could've done with 2-3 more anyway, even on loans but no matter for the moment.

However is money entirely as tight as claimed? I make Sheffield Wednesday a similar FFP position to us going into this season and perhaps worse given relegation and the hit to income.

Charge over Hillsborough, problems paying wages for months. They released a lot of players but so did we, where is their pressure to sell. If Championship losses carry over in FFP...

IN:

Peacock-Farrell (Loan) Burnley

Wing (Loan) Middlesbrough

Byers (Unsure if Loan or fee) Swansea

Johnson (Free) Middlesbrough

They've also signed Hunt on a free after he left us, Jaden Brown on a free from Huddersfield, Aderian from Everton- half-season at Wycombe, loanees albeit young from QPR, Wolves and a striker on loan from St Gallen.

My gut feeling is that unless the 3 year rule is completely abolished for relegated sides, they are relatively aggressive in the market and especially in Covid times.

Sell to Buy

Well apart from £600k for Borner, who have they sold?

Off the top of my head.

Iorfa

Dunkley

Bannan (Robbored's fave).

Luongo

Windass

Paterson

All remain. There might be more who fit the category too. 

Seems strange that relegation in a Pandemic can almost help a Club who have been losing money for fun.

I think it more boils down to how much SL is prepared to write off each year.

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20 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think it more boils down to how much SL is prepared to write off each year.

@Mr Popodopolous and others understand this stuff far more than I do, but I think they are 2 separate things. What SL puts in to keep the clubs operating losses down, doesn't really have anything to do with FFP as such,  is that right?

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1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

@Mr Popodopolous and others understand this stuff far more than I do, but I think they are 2 separate things. What SL puts in to keep the clubs operating losses down, doesn't really have anything to do with FFP as such,  is that right?

Excuse my ignorance but what does FFP stand for.

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2 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

I was just reading about Tammy and a prospective move to Arsenal. They were talking about a 'loan with a duty to buy'. I've heard of 'loan with an option to buy' before but never this. Maybe it's a way of shifting the financial issues clubs lower down are clearly having yet allowing movement of players? I appreciate we're not signing Tammy BTW, more the idea of the deal in principle. Essentially, 'buy now, pay from next year'.

All well and good I suppose as long as we don't go back into lockdown.

Too risky?

Loan with an obligation, not really a thing here but perhaps Covid has moved the dial. Serie A, been known of there for a few years.

Thinking about it, seen it in the Championship a few times too. Certainly not PL to PL though.

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2 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

I was just reading about Tammy and a prospective move to Arsenal. They were talking about a 'loan with a duty to buy'. I've heard of 'loan with an option to buy' before but never this. Maybe it's a way of shifting the financial issues clubs lower down are clearly having yet allowing movement of players? I appreciate we're not signing Tammy BTW, more the idea of the deal in principle. Essentially, 'buy now, pay from next year'.

All well and good I suppose as long as we don't go back into lockdown.

Too risky?

⬇️⬇️⬇️

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Loan with an obligation, not really a thing here but perhaps Covid has moved the dial. Serie A, been known of there for a few years.

Thinking about it, seen it in the Championship a few times too. Certainly not PL to PL though.

Yes it is.

Ben Sheaf has just gone to Coventry from Arsenal on this basis.  Can take many factors, e.g.

  • obligation to buy if x appearances made
  • obligation to buy if promoted
  • etc

the more common case recently was when transfer window ended before loan window, and clubs loaned a player with obligation to buy in next window (or earlier).

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7 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Not sure why you are quoting 28 as the first team squad. 23 is the general norm . We have an £8m CB, a £5.5 m forward, a £3.5 m AM , a £2.5m LB, a CBD resigned we once paid £3.5 M for . The list goes on. It might be reduced, but it was bloated full of players who did not play. NP has said he wants a smaller squad , so the players are all involved. Under 23's will move in and out of the squad as required. Loans are for covering emergencies. If players are fit , we are not short. We might not have the right players , just yet, but the numbers are fine. Sending our players out on loan is fine once, twice, but then pointless if they are not going to contribute. So we should see a number of players like Nurse (already) , Cundy , Morton etc moved on . If at 22 you are not near our first team you need to move. I see no reason to add to our squad , unless for a forward, as np stated. But that is a 5m purchase that we cannot afford this year unless we sell. 

The poster I quoted suggested 28, I went with that number as a starting point.

Small squad is fine and I think 24-25 is generally the optimum number but we already have multiple players who are either injured or not fully fit. Cundy, Maasengo, Williams, Semenyo. It's a tough and unforgiving League however

Forward aside, there are usually good loan options out there, are you confident in Simpson at RB were Vyner to get injured?

Of the clutch of young players who got their chance in the final couple of months, Scott yes, Edwards? Well he was injured but yes, Pring? Well he will be back up LB and is 23 so yes.

The rest? How many are ready yet.

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56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Loan with an obligation, not really a thing here but perhaps Covid has moved the dial. Serie A, been known of there for a few years.

Thinking about it, seen it in the Championship a few times too. Certainly not PL to PL though.

I wonder how that affects amortisation? Would the players' asset value go on to the club he's leaving or the club taking the 'loan' option when, in reality, he would be the asset of the destination club after 12 months anyway?

Dave!!

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Just now, Ska Junkie said:

I wonder how that affects amortisation? Would the players' asset value go on to the club he's leaving or the club taking the 'loan' option when, in reality, he would be the asset of the destination club after 12 months anyway?

Dave!!

Asset shifts on transfer only.

If you recall last week there was a load of crap re Harry Wilson and Fulham avoiding FFP by not paying until next summer.  I couldn’t work out how that could be allowed.  In fact it is a season loan with obligation to buy next summer.

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Asset shifts on transfer only.

If you recall last week there was a load of crap re Harry Wilson and Fulham avoiding FFP by not paying until next summer.  I couldn’t work out how that could be allowed.  In fact it is a season loan with obligation to buy next summer.

Surely a way around FFP for the club that receives the player then? For 12 months anyway.

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