Supporters Club & Trust Statement: Taking The Knee (Merged)

[REDOXO]

What a terrible thread!
 

This is no longer about our football club and needs to be moved to the bollocks and bullshit sub forum! Moderators you have my full permission to do so! 
 

 

[BTRFTG]

3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

The club literally issued a statement saying what it was for…

Doesn't follow that any output from the club makes sense or that the actions accord to what has been professed. The action itself has swerved several times, not really knowing what was going on. We had the ludicrous situation of players and the League backtracking from their original position of supporting the Black Lives Matter movement, all whilst TV carried games with the BLM logo emblazoned and commentators referencing that very movement as soon as patella hit turf.

So exactly what impact does players induce when taking the knee? How does it cause folks to personally reflect on racism, racist activity or social injustice? From where I was sitting yesterday, and for the 6 seconds or so players bothered to stoop down, it appeared to have sweet FA impact. Did it cause me to reflect? No, it simply irritated that this is what modern gesture politics is; much as nobody will be seen refusing to clap for the NHS yet at ballot box, in private, will they vote to increase the contribution they'll make to fund that institution? It's all for show and sod all with how folks think and react in person.

I'm also puzzled as to why players think racism is rife in football? Is it? Those shouting loudest come from African or Afro-Caribbean descent. That racial group comprises 3.5% of the UK population. And what percentage of professional footballers does that racial group provide? Is there systemic oppression or under-representation? Don't hear too many Asian, Eurasian, Polynesian types complaining of under-representation, but that's not what this is about, is it?

When was the last time you personally experienced racial chanting at a fixture, saw an offending object thrown, or directly witnessed racial abuse? When?

Players love to cite events from decades back, events from cultures utterly ensconced in racism (strange they'll happily cite Eastern Europe countries though never African, (ever been to that continent and witnessed the racism and tribalism endemic there?)) and the anonymity of abuse received by their money making social media accounts. If players were truly that bothered why not, instead of taking the knee, close all social media associations? Racists would have to find somewhere else to vent their beliefs. But they won't, there's too much money to be had and beliefs and bunce are mutually exclusive.

It's also odd that players haven't promoted other walks of life to follow suit, or is sport a special case? Should all employees take the knee before starting work? Try it at your workplace and see what reaction you get?

 

 

[The dastardly red]

3 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Doesn't follow that any output from the club makes sense or that the actions accord to what has been professed. The action itself has swerved several times, not really knowing what was going on. We had the ludicrous situation of players and the League backtracking from their original position of supporting the Black Lives Matter movement, all whilst TV carried games with the BLM logo emblazoned and commentators referencing that very movement as soon as patella hit turf.

So exactly what impact does players induce when taking the knee? How does it cause folks to personally reflect on racism, racist activity or social injustice? From where I was sitting yesterday, and for the 6 seconds or so players bothered to stoop down, it appeared to have sweet FA impact. Did it cause me to reflect? No, it simply irritated that this is what modern gesture politics is; much as nobody will be seen refusing to clap for the NHS yet at ballot box, in private, will they vote to increase the contribution they'll make to fund that institution? It's all for show and sod all with how folks think and react in person.

I'm also puzzled as to why players think racism is rife in football? Is it? Those shouting loudest come from African or Afro-Caribbean descent. That racial group comprises 3.5% of the UK population. And what percentage of professional footballers does that racial group provide? Is there systemic oppression or under-representation? Don't hear too many Asian, Eurasian, Polynesian types complaining of under-representation, but that's not what this is about, is it?

When was the last time you personally experienced racial chanting at a fixture, saw an offending object thrown, or directly witnessed racial abuse? When?

Players love to cite events from decades back, events from cultures utterly ensconced in racism (strange they'll happily cite Eastern Europe countries though never African, (ever been to that continent and witnessed the racism and tribalism endemic there?)) and the anonymity of abuse received by their money making social media accounts. If players were truly that bothered why not, instead of taking the knee, close all social media associations? Racists would have to find somewhere else to vent their beliefs. But they won't, there's too much money to be had and beliefs and bunce are mutually exclusive.

It's also odd that players haven't promoted other walks of life to follow suit, or is sport a special case? Should all employees take the knee before starting work? Try it at your workplace and see what reaction you get?

 

 

Garbled nonsense and textbook whataboutery. 

[Redland]

8 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

I’ve never booed this taking the knee stuff, but it’s really beginning to boil my piss now. I’m totally against racism, but I can’t support a gesture with so many negative connotations.  

People can deny the Black Lives Matter links all they like, but if you adopt a gesture so inextricably linked to an organisation, you can’t then deny any connections.  Put it this way, if the players all stood on the pitch and did Nazi salutes, could they then deny empathising with that organisation?  And no, I’m not comparing BLM to Nazis, just in case anyone misunderstands!

It baffles me why it was deemed appropriate to adopt this symbol anyway.  There are a number of worrying and negative aims and objectives for BLM in the US.  We aren’t the US, so why not create a gesture which doesn’t carry the negative baggage and can still be relevant?

Would it be so bad to have all the players linking arms as a symbol of unity and solidarity?  Nothing negative or divisive in that gesture and a positive gesture of all people being as one.  I feel anyone booing that would then be leaving themselves wide open to accusations of racist motivations.

What this country really needs is something  that brings all ethnic groups together as one, not something with the potential to drive a massive great wedge between between elements of society that we’re trying to unite.

 

Great post. Spot on. 

[BrizzleRed]

10 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

The only reason it's linked to that organisation is because the right wing has told everybody it is.

The two things have common ground of course, but they are not (and have never been) the same thing.

 

You’ve got to be kidding right?? 

Nothing to do with the right wing.  They’ve adopted a gesture that is now so inextricably and publicly linked with BLM, that just claiming they aren’t connected with BLM isn’t good enough.

That’s why I’m saying they shouldn’t have adopted that gesture in the first place, as there would have been far better and more positive ways of getting the point across.

[BS2 Red]

11 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

You’ve got to be kidding right?? 

Nothing to do with the right wing.  They’ve adopted a gesture that is now so inextricably and publicly linked with BLM, that just claiming they aren’t connected with BLM isn’t good enough.

That’s why I’m saying they shouldn’t have adopted that gesture in the first place, as there would have been far better and more positive ways of getting the point across.

No kidding here. Taking the knee in sport  predates the BLM organisations.

The only reason taking the knee is being linked to BLM groups (not the phrase) is because the right wing have told people the two are linked.

The knee can be linked to the phrase BLM. But football dropped the BLM phrase when the groups using it as a name gained more prominence.

This whole discussion is going round and round in circles. I'm not sure there is anything else left to say, so I'm bowing out here.

[City Rocker]

FFS why the excruciating political debate, when those making the gesture have confirmed it's not a political action? The players have put that misunderstanding to bed, taking the knee has no political association.

I've said this before on here but make no apology for repeating it, many of us football fans of a certain age from the punk/mod/ska era have been overtly anti-racist for over forty years, and it's never been anything to do with politics, just our culture based on general human decency.

Opposing inequality is not 'left wing'. Anti-racism is not the preserve of the Left, neither is it 'politically correct'.  

It is just correct.

[MarcusX]

18 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

Yeah you were allowed to wave and fly flags back then

without some snowflake being offended 

you still can

[MarcusX]

13 hours ago, Robbored said:

Quite right. 

Those that choose to boo are frustrated at what has become an empty gesture. The original impact has worn off. Nothing racial in their decision to boo taking the knee imo.

How do you know this, have you asked everyone who boo'd for their reasons?

[MarcusX]

13 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I think the Trust as a representative body for BCFC fans should not be lying. Bristol City fans are not racist. 

Is that a fact though? Do you know that none of them are, because I've been to Bradford away and seen and heard it for myself (and I dont mean just "banter" chanting in the ground, I mean literally shouting p*** at fans in the street).

Obviously not all fans at all, but we have some

[BrizzleRed]

34 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

No kidding here. Taking the knee in sport  predates the BLM organisations.

The only reason taking the knee is being linked to BLM groups (not the phrase) is because the right wing have told people the two are linked.

The knee can be linked to the phrase BLM. But football dropped the BLM phrase when the groups using it as a name gained more prominence.

This whole discussion is going round and round in circles. I'm not sure there is anything else left to say, so I'm bowing out here.

So it’s just a coincedence that this all ‘kicked off’ after the George Floyd killing and protest marches in British cities with a sea of BLM banners.

With the greatest respect I can manage, pull the other one!

[MarcusX]

12 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

One statue got thrown in the docks. Not "statues".

And nobody threatened the Cenotaph, let alone spray paint armed BLM.

A statue that people had been trying to get removed democratically for some time as well mind, it wasn't like it was just a decision on the day to cause trouble - people had felt strongly about removing the statue long before that day.

[MarcusX]

12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

This time around. Like others. And will again. The statements also morph. And will again. But the gesture remains. 

Society and football is overwhelmingly anti racist but this gesture causes contention. Bristol City supporters have never booed any anti racist action before. Never.

So why now and only this?

What is the stigma around this kneeling gesture?

 

Clubs have taken on board the concerns that the reason for taking the knee has been mis-construed so they made a point of being very clear why it is being done. For some reason, some fans choose not to believe this 

I've said before I agree that maybe another gesture needs to be done if this is so contentious to some people (we'd be better off doing something that unifies people) but while it's being boo'd the players cant stop, otherwise they look like they've given in to them.

 

[BS2 Red]

2 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

So it’s just a coincedence that this all ‘kicked off’ after the George Floyd killing and protest marches in British cities with a sea of BLM banners.

With the greatest respect I can manage, pull the other one!

Nobody doubts this all happened following the George Floyd murder.

What you are missing is that the murder sparked worldwide protests against racism. "Black lives matter" was used as a phrase.

Black Lives Matter organisations came to prominence at the same time.

Footballers wanted to make anti-racism gestures and so took Colin Kaepernick's knee gesture. Messages of "black lives matter" were used.

As BLM groups gained prominence and the media picked up on some of the political ideas of some of those groups, football dropped the BLM phrase as it was bound up in the public's mind with the BLM groups.

Taking the knee has never been a BLM owned gesture, sure some BLM supporters may do it, but they didn't invent it and certainly don't own it.

The right wing have desperately tried to link taking the knee with the BLM groups. A lot of people now believe this, but it isn't true. Unless people actually believe that Premier League footballers are secret Marxists? 

Football has been VERY clear for some time now why they take the knee and what it represents for them.

So with the greatest of respect, pull the other one if you still cannot understand this.

This really is the last post I'm making in here, there's only so many times we can go around this roundabout.

[BrizzleRed]

10 hours ago, QuedgeRed said:

So inextricably linked that you believe the Bristol City players on Saturday share the same beliefs???

No, very unlikely I would hope.  

So I rest my case ...... don’t make the gesture and use something that hasn’t got those sinister undertones instead!

[Selred]

5 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

No, very unlikely I would hope.  

So I rest my case ...... don’t make the gesture and use something that hasn’t got those sinister undertones instead!

So you admit it's unlikely. So rather than support City's message, you would rather boo? 

How about the sinister undertones of booing an anti-racism symbol? 

[BrizzleRed]

8 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

Nobody doubts this all happened following the George Floyd murder.

What you are missing is that the murder sparked worldwide protests against racism. "Black lives matter" was used as a phrase.

Black Lives Matter organisations came to prominence at the same time.

Footballers wanted to make anti-racism gestures and so took Colin Kaepernick's knee gesture. Messages of "black lives matter" were used.

As BLM groups gained prominence and the media picked up on some of the political ideas of some of those groups, football dropped the BLM phrase as it was bound up in the public's mind with the BLM groups.

Taking the knee has never been a BLM owned gesture, sure some BLM supporters may do it, but they didn't invent it and certainly don't own it.

The right wing have desperately tried to link taking the knee with the BLM groups. A lot of people now believe this, but it isn't true. Unless people actually believe that Premier League footballers are secret Marxists? 

Football has been VERY clear for some time now why they take the knee and what it represents for them.

So with the greatest of respect, pull the other one if you still cannot understand this.

This really is the last post I'm making in here, there's only so many times we can go around this roundabout.

Well thanks for listing how all these various movements are so closely linked together and have proved my point quite well I think.

You can argue the toss about footballers using a gesture which is now so obviously used by BLM.  I think now vould be the time to change and adopt a protest that doesn’t have those negative links, or you become guilty by association.

I agree on making this the last response, as I’m frankly bored with you trying to deflect the issue with constant finger pointing and accusations of right wing influence, whilst conveniently overlooking the obvious reasons for this controversy.

[Cowshed]

8 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Clubs have taken on board the concerns that the reason for taking the knee has been mis-construed so they made a point of being very clear why it is being done. For some reason, some fans choose not to believe this 

I've said before I agree that maybe another gesture needs to be done if this is so contentious to some people (we'd be better off doing something that unifies people) but while it's being boo'd the players cant stop, otherwise they look like they've given in to them.

 

That with respects was not an answer to either question. 

You were asked why Bristol City fans (some) now boo this gesture and only this? What is the stigma around this kneeling gesture? 

The supporters club and trust explanation and only explanation is racism. 

[MarcusX]

8 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Doesn't follow that any output from the club makes sense or that the actions accord to what has been professed. The action itself has swerved several times, not really knowing what was going on. We had the ludicrous situation of players and the League backtracking from their original position of supporting the Black Lives Matter movement, all whilst TV carried games with the BLM logo emblazoned and commentators referencing that very movement as soon as patella hit turf.

So exactly what impact does players induce when taking the knee? I dont disagree with this, as I've since posted

How does it cause folks to personally reflect on racism, racist activity or social injustice? From where I was sitting yesterday, and for the 6 seconds or so players bothered to stoop down, it appeared to have sweet FA impact. Did it cause me to reflect? No, Does Kick It Out cause anyone to reflect? Not been mentioning in this thread but in most previous discussions people preferred that campaign, presumably because it was usually rarely seen in the ground bar a couple of advertising boards. One particular gesture a season tended to be the norm from what I remember.

it simply irritated that this is what modern gesture politics is; much as nobody will be seen refusing to clap for the NHS yet at ballot box, in private, will they vote to increase the contribution they'll make to fund that institution? It's all for show and sod all with how folks think and react in person. I personally chose not to clap for the NHS after the first week, for the reasons you give. It went on for too long IMO, but I'd never consider booing it (if we had an NHS or key worker on our street I'd have maybe reconsidered to show them direct support) 

I'm also puzzled as to why players think racism is rife in football? Is it? Probably because many players get abused week on week - have you forgotten the Euro final just a few weeks ago? Those shouting loudest come from African or Afro-Caribbean descent. That racial group comprises 3.5% of the UK population. And what percentage of professional footballers does that racial group provide? Is there systemic oppression or under-representation? Don't hear too many Asian, Eurasian, Polynesian types complaining of under-representation, but that's not what this is about, is it?

When was the last time you personally experienced racial chanting at a fixture, saw an offending object thrown, or directly witnessed racial abuse? When? Last time I went to Bradford away (the promotion winning game) of course that's 5 years ago now but I'm sure it would happen again from a few idiots. Away from football and to add balance I as a white male have also been on the receiving end in America a couple of years ago, it was subtle but it was absolutely a case of "you dont belong here".

Players love to cite events from decades back, events from cultures utterly ensconced in racism (strange they'll happily cite Eastern Europe countries though never African, (ever been to that continent and witnessed the racism and tribalism endemic there?)) and the anonymity of abuse received by their money making social media accounts. If players were truly that bothered why not, instead of taking the knee, close all social media associations? Racists would have to find somewhere else to vent their beliefs. But they won't, there's too much money to be had and beliefs and bunce are mutually exclusive. Why should players have to remove their social media accounts because they are being abused? Why cant we stop the racists rather than make the victims suffer?

It's also odd that players haven't promoted other walks of life to follow suit, or is sport a special case? Should all employees take the knee before starting work? Try it at your workplace and see what reaction you get? I dont know anyone at my work who has been racially abused by 100s of randomers on social media because they had a bad day at the office. I agree there's a level of hypocrisy though amongst football with regards to other discrimination and unethical practice. None of these players will have a problem playing a World Cup in Qatar for example (Or russia previously).

 

 

Comments above

[BrizzleRed]

11 minutes ago, Selred said:

So you admit it's unlikely. So rather than support City's message, you would rather boo? 

How about the sinister undertones of booing an anti-racism symbol? 

If you cared to read what I’d said in my first post, I’ve never booed it, just don’t agree with it.  If people choose to, that’s up to them.

As for anti racism symbol, it’s a very flawed one if it can be connected with BLM.  Does that mean you agree with the BLM agenda then?

[Selred]

Just now, BrizzleRed said:

As for anti racism symbol, it’s a very flawed one if it can be connected with BLM.  Does that mean you agree with the BLM agenda then?

The flag of St George can be connected to EDL / BNP. I had the flag out for the Euros and don't agree with their agendas, so no. I personally think your argument is ridiculous. 

[QuedgeRed]

22 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

No, very unlikely I would hope.  

So I rest my case ...... don’t make the gesture and use something that hasn’t got those sinister undertones instead!

But the club have chosen this gesture!!

They’ve stated what they hope to achieve by it!!

Those that boo are are not supporting that cause and so don’t agree with kicking out racism in football.

It’s that simple!

[Northern Red]

The mental gymnastics that continually take place to try and justify the booing never cease to amaze me.

[MarcusX]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That with respects was not an answer to either question. 

You were asked why Bristol City fans (some) now boo this gesture and only this? What is the stigma around this kneeling gesture? 

The supporters club and trust explanation and only explanation is racism. 

I agree the statement was badly worded, I believe (or how I read it) was that "the racist impact" meant fans should consider the impact their booing had upon the racism debate, and how it may be considered a racist action. If I used a term such as BAME (which according to some we shouldn't now, or the term "coloured") but did so with good intent because I didn't realise it was no longer acceptable then I'm likely not a racist, but there is an impact to my action. At best it's ignorance.

That said, if a club makes it abundently clear that they are doing an action purely as an anti-racism gesture and it is absolutely not political and has no other connotations, what other answer is there to fans booing that action? 

All of that aside, these are our players, this was our first time back in 500 days. Booing them has absolutely zero value or benefit to the team, however it could have a detrimental affect to performance. Why would we do something that could negatively affect our team?

 

[QuedgeRed]

4 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

The mental gymnastics that continually take place to try and justify the booing never cease to amaze me.

This

Booing our own players before they even kick a ball!!

I bet they kneel and think to themselves “why do I even bother?!”

 

[TheReds]

10 hours ago, TBW said:

Cry harder for me. 

Why you even seem so happy to try and belittle someone who may have had a poorer education than yourself is very, very sad. This second response just sums you up perfectly, whilst shouting about wanting equality, but then have a go at someone who maybe less equal than yourself, simply because they have a different view. The trouble is people like you are all over the left, talk down to people, bully people, the always right attitude, but just cannot even see it because of the virtuous attitude.

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

I agree the statement was badly worded, I believe (or how I read it) was that "the racist impact" meant fans should consider the impact their booing had upon the racism debate, and how it may be considered a racist action. If I used a term such as BAME (which according to some we shouldn't now, or the term "coloured") but did so with good intent because I didn't realise it was no longer acceptable then I'm likely not a racist, but there is an impact to my action. At best it's ignorance.

That said, if a club makes it abundently clear that they are doing an action purely as an anti-racism gesture and it is absolutely not political and has no other connotations, what other answer is there to fans booing that action? 

All of that aside, these are our players, this was our first time back in 500 days. Booing them has absolutely zero value or benefit to the team, however it could have a detrimental affect to performance. Why would we do something that could negatively affect our team?

 

 

Why would we do something that could negatively affect our team? Yes. They already are. Taking the knee will not help players (some) achieve flow states, its a break in focus .. Its a uneven point. ... And with respect this was not an answer to the posed questions either.

You have introduced a word purely. Clearly fans (the some) and I would disagree. This gesture is not pure. This gesture has associations. These associations are negative hence the gesture and only this gesture creates this negativity. Its ignorant to ignore what is a fact. Its ignorant to blithely plow on and expect differing outcomes when you know what you are doing/about to do creates negativity. 

What the Supporters Trust should have done is ask why? 

A tool. Think of someone taking the knee. Will your responses, the feelings you have be the same as somebody elses and the answer will be no. To deny that again is ignorant. Humans are not all wired the same. We have influential parts of society (and its not a right wing con) telling people taking the knee has negative associations and its not solely an anti racist gesture .. And we internalise this information differently. Our own experiences shape how we will feel emotion. A gesture can instantly lead to feelings pleasure or revulsion or indifference and on. The tool. People identify taking the knee with BLM. A vision that stirs emotion, really does .. To not accept that ignores how our brains work, more ignorance.   

That said, if a club makes it abundently clear that they are doing an action purely as an anti-racism gesture and it is absolutely not political and has no other connotations, what other answer is there to fans booing that action? You have already answered this move away from the flawed gesture. 

[Roger Red Hat]

49 minutes ago, Marco the red said:

Lock the thread.

I would suggest that it is dumped in the long running  thread in the politics forum. All the same type of comments going round and round and round and round for ever.

[IAmNick]

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

So exactly what impact does players induce when taking the knee? How does it cause folks to personally reflect on racism, racist activity or social injustice? From where I was sitting yesterday, and for the 6 seconds or so players bothered to stoop down, it appeared to have sweet FA impact. Did it cause me to reflect? No, it simply irritated that this is what modern gesture politics is; much as nobody will be seen refusing to clap for the NHS yet at ballot box, in private, will they vote to increase the contribution they'll make to fund that institution? It's all for show and sod all with how folks think and react in person.

Well the chair of the apparently now much loved Kick It Out thinks it's had impact: https://www.kickitout.org/news/taking-the-knee-by-sanjay-bhandari

Are people not reflecting on racism and social injustice in this thread and in many papers etc. as a result? You're literally posting in a 13 page thread about it.

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm also puzzled as to why players think racism is rife in football? Is it? Those shouting loudest come from African or Afro-Caribbean descent. That racial group comprises 3.5% of the UK population. And what percentage of professional footballers does that racial group provide? Is there systemic oppression or under-representation? Don't hear too many Asian, Eurasian, Polynesian types complaining of under-representation, but that's not what this is about, is it?

I don't think people have said it's rife have they? Some very poor straw manning here.

What has %ages of footballers got to do with anything?

Do you think there is no racism at all in or around football? If not, then why not support something that is unarguably raising awareness of it?

Did you see the comments following the Euro shootout to the three England players who missed?

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

When was the last time you personally experienced racial chanting at a fixture, saw an offending object thrown, or directly witnessed racial abuse? When?

Awful awful point. What has this got to do with anything?

I've never personally experienced many horrific things but that doesn't mean I can't strongly oppose them. It should take two seconds to realise that.

The attitude that if you personally haven't seen it then you shouldn't worry about it is very concerning in my opinion.

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Players love to cite events from decades back, events from cultures utterly ensconced in racism (strange they'll happily cite Eastern Europe countries though never African, (ever been to that continent and witnessed the racism and tribalism endemic there?)) and the anonymity of abuse received by their money making social media accounts. If players were truly that bothered why not, instead of taking the knee, close all social media associations? Racists would have to find somewhere else to vent their beliefs. But they won't, there's too much money to be had and beliefs and bunce are mutually exclusive.

Ah yes, so your genius solution is that if you're affected by racism and bullying just give in and close down your social media. That's a great lesson to teach people and a great response - the abusers win.

Why should they have to? Maybe they enjoy the majority of interaction on social media and don't want to have to delete it due to a few racist knuckleheads? The people being abused shouldn't have to change their behaviour.

How about this: Society puts pressure on the racist idiots, educates, and prevents it from happening in the first place.

Imagine if we'd had your outlook throughout history what society would be like now.

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

It's also odd that players haven't promoted other walks of life to follow suit, or is sport a special case? Should all employees take the knee before starting work? Try it at your workplace and see what reaction you get?

Why is that odd? They're football players so they're responding in football.

This general attitude of "Well if they're not going to do EVERYTHING they shouldn't do ANYTHING" is ridiculous. As is the "Well look here's a country which does bad things they didn't mention". Just waiting for "Well they're really rich so why do they care!" to come out now.

The whole premise is just ridiculous. Loads of things are appropriate in one place but not another. Try jumping into a cold bath with your colleagues after a hard day's work... guess we should stop that then in football.

[MarcusX]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Why would we do something that could negatively affect our team? Yes. They already are. Taking the knee will not help players (some) achieve flow states, its a break in focus .. Its a uneven point. ... And with respect this was not an answer to the posed questions either.

You have introduced a word purely. Clearly fans (the some) and I would disagree. This gesture is not pure. This gesture has associations. These associations are negative hence the gesture and only this gesture creates this negativity. Its ignorant to ignore what is a fact. Its ignorant to blithely plow on and expect differing outcomes when you know what you are doing/about to do creates negativity. 

What the Supporters Trust should have done is ask why? 

A tool. Think of someone taking the knee. Will your responses, the feelings you have be the same as somebody elses and the answer will be no. To deny that again is ignorant. Humans are not all wired the same. We have influential parts of society (and its not a right wing con) telling people taking the knee has negative associations and its not solely an anti racist gesture .. And we internalise this information differently. Our own experiences shape how we will feel emotion. A gesture can instantly lead to feelings pleasure or revulsion or indifference and on. The tool. People identify taking the knee with BLM. A vision that stirs emotion, really does .. To not accept that ignores how our brains work, more ignorance.   

That said, if a club makes it abundently clear that they are doing an action purely as an anti-racism gesture and it is absolutely not political and has no other connotations, what other answer is there to fans booing that action? You have already answered this move away from the flawed gesture. 

What do you mean I introduced the word purely? I am telling you what the official statement said: This gesture of unity is not an alignment to any political organisation or ideology, but rather raising the awareness of the important issue of discrimination

It is purely (entirely; exclusively) about the awareness of discrimination. It doesn't matter what you associate it with. As other's have said, I could associate the England flag with the EDL - but if you told me you were flying an England flag in your garden for the football team then you would be pretty miffed if I kept saying you were supporting the EDL. The ignorance is actually to continue to refuse to accept the reasons people keep telling you for why *they* are taking the knee and keep making up your own reasons or associations.

Again, if you are told why something is done and you choose to believe it's about something else then it is yourself that is displaying ignorance. Inability to detach the "gesture" from something else in your mind and simply apply it to the reasons you are being given. The people who cannot make this detachment are the issue.

Sorry, last paragraph is wrong IMO. Why should they change their gesture to pander to boo'ers? People should open their minds and realise that what they think is happening is not the reality.