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Supporters Club & Trust Statement: Taking The Knee (Merged)


Redandproud

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42 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I would suggest that it is dumped in the long running  thread in the politics forum. All the same type of comments going round and round and round and round for ever.

Why is this the answer all the time? If people don't want to read it, don't open it. The subject is very clear. Burying it away somewhere else doesn't get us anywhere and there are some good ideas being shared too.

It's football related, it's City related and it's going to come up every week if you hide it away each time.

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It's such a weird world we live in.

So much abuse happens via social media these days.

It's become the platform for abuse, bullying, anxiety, being offended, arguments, disagreements etc all faceless and rarely with consequence. 

Before...it was spoken or shouted in the streets or at the ground, and dealt with appropriately. Do anything wrong in public and you are punished or banned.

Take the three England footballers racially abused. Apparently approx a 1000 tweets removed and 11 arrests made in this country. The majority of tweets came from abroad.

Social media opens you up to a World Population of Billions of people. So from those Billions of people a miniscule amount of abuse was made.

It looks worse than it is...Billions of people didn't abuse them...the majority of people aren't racist.

Imo...Social media platforms are the problem. They make it too easy for people to say anything often without consequence unless reported.

I scratch my head as to why people feel the need to be public with millions of people they have never met or know. Even writing this is really weird, as I only know a few on here. ??

The point being... minorities now have a massive platform to share their views. Say it enough times and the minorities sound the loudest.

It feels very much like we are now living in a world where the focus is very much on the minorities rather than the majority. It's out of proportion.

Yes we all want to live in a world that's peaceful and respectful, but regardless of knee taking, symbolism, talk, you will never fully change a small minorities views and their actions, regardless of them being educated otherwise.

This kneeling reminds me of the Lazio fans who use the Roman Salute because they say it's Roman. They won't acknowledge that it's divisive because it was used by the Facsists and Nazi's. They say it was around before then and has Roman origins...so they use it. Even though it's banned in many countries and very divisive.

In the same way...kneeling is divisive.

It may not have its origins from the BLM organisation, but they took up kneeling as a symbolic action...in the same way Fascists took up the Roman Salute.

It becomes their symbolic action.

For many...people will see Kneeling as a symbolic action used by the BLM, even though it wasn't originally invented by them. They just chose to use it.

So in doing so, the players kneeling, using that symbolism the BLM use, they will always have certain people annoyed by it, even though it's being used for other reasons. The Lazio fans use the same argument.

It will always cause division because of that connection.

Use some other form that isn't connected and you'll solve your problem.

There will still be racists...but it will stop the booing from people who aren't racist and just see it as connected to the BLM organisation.

I have my own opinion that the people in power are quite happy to let the division continue so that they can put in greater controlling powers in the future.

Social media has a lot to answer for.

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As you ask, I don't think people are reflecting on racism and social injustice. It's gesture politic.

So answer me this? Those who believe 'taking the knee' achieves something, how do they measure their success (or otherwise)? At what point will they decide there's no longer a need to act, where's the cut-off, what does it look like? If you do not know when to stop, when do you? (I believe that's where this current campaign is at and why it's professed aims are so befuddled.)

It's also nothing about letting losers win and everything about calling out discrimination in whatever form it takes. I've been lucky enough to have travelled much of this planet and if you think racism's rife in the White West try the Sub-Continent or Africa. What we witness today is specifically Black gesture politic (most other ethnicities don't get a look in.) Here's a real world example. Before giving up the ghost and as a senior manager in a large Government Department I was charged with reducing,  managing, reporting and responding to racist activity & behaviour amongst my charges. Problem being the powers that be didn't like the data their monitoring uncovered. In short, Caucasian racists (who existed) were largely passive in the workplace knowing eyes were constantly on them & in fear they'd be called-out (correct assumption) were they to show their prejudice at work. There were however found to be far more Black and Asian racists in the workplace, most of whom weren't shy in hiding their beliefs as they themselves decided themselves untouchable, that race absolved them from their racist actions. In that belief they proved themselves correct. The findings, all mensurate, were clear and pretty much reflected what you see in society, both here and abroad. In short:

The was a strong antipathy from many Africans toward those hailing from Nigerian based ethnicities (if you've ever enjoyed Famalam you'll understand this distinction forms the base of much of that programme's humour;)

There was a strong antipathy from many newly naturalised Africans toward Afro-Caribbeans, or UK born Black descendants of Afro-Caribbean extraction;

Many employees of Indian and Pakistani extraction disliked being mutually defined as being 'Asian' just about as much as they disliked each other, though given history and present day tensions that really isn't that surprising.

Save the above got buried, it's not the type of racism gesture politic wishes to highlight. So the Caucasian racists were highlighted, the majority of other racists free to continue unhindered. Strangely the terms you've used in describing racists: 'idiots', 'knuckleheads' are pretty much exclusively directed toward Caucasians. Odd that and, dare I say it, racist.

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42 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

What do you mean I introduced the word purely? I am telling you what the official statement said: This gesture of unity is not an alignment to any political organisation or ideology, but rather raising the awareness of the important issue of discrimination

It is purely (entirely; exclusively) about the awareness of discrimination. It doesn't matter what you associate it with. As other's have said, I could associate the England flag with the EDL - but if you told me you were flying an England flag in your garden for the football team then you would be pretty miffed if I kept saying you were supporting the EDL. The ignorance is actually to continue to refuse to accept the reasons people keep telling you for why *they* are taking the knee and keep making up your own reasons or associations.

Again, if you are told why something is done and you choose to believe it's about something else then it is yourself that is displaying ignorance. Inability to detach the "gesture" from something else in your mind and simply apply it to the reasons you are being given. The people who cannot make this detachment are the issue.

Sorry, last paragraph is wrong IMO. Why should they change their gesture to pander to boo'ers? People should open their minds and realise that what they think is happening is not the reality.

 

 

 

 

You chose to include the word purely. Yours theirs .. But this gesture is not pure in all minds is it? Its not pure in the minds of all media? All politicians (left and right)? All influencers? Our experiences? 

To ignore that and state its pure is ignorant. You (?) and whoever are deciding you can see what people really think and feel. You (?) are deciding what people should think. Telling them so and on. Arrogant? Ignorant? Both.

I don't make up associations. People in this thread are expressing theirs not mine. I accept their views sincerely exist as facts. Ignorance would not.  

The mesage behind this gesture as poster after poster has stated has not been consistent. Its was undeniably linked to BLM. All over grounds, on shirts etc. That is damage, that is flawed as a form of communication.

An issue is the gesture. It should not be. 

You have still yet to answer why only this gesture causes this negativity? What is the stigma with this pure (!) act?  

In regards to your last line. Sorry but I don't understand what you think. I thought after reading your posts you think the act should be changed,  but now don't .. Its either effective or not. Giving in, pandering isn't what its all about .. Nonsense that. Wrong. 

Improvement can be made. A more unifying message can be created. 

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2 hours ago, TheReds said:

Why you even seem so happy to try and belittle someone who may have had a poorer education than yourself is very, very sad. This second response just sums you up perfectly, whilst shouting about wanting equality, but then have a go at someone who maybe less equal than yourself, simply because they have a different view. The trouble is people like you are all over the left, talk down to people, bully people, the always right attitude, but just cannot even see it because of the virtuous attitude.

I don't see myself as left. I didn't vote the last election as I couldn't decide between the two. Both shit.

13 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Awwww you're one of those spiteful lefties.  I feel for your friends. 

As above. Didn't vote the last election as I'm not aligned either side. There are many more issues than this at stake that voting goes into. 

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

 

Why would we do something that could negatively affect our team? Yes. They already are. Taking the knee will not help players (some) achieve flow states, its a break in focus .. Its a uneven point. ... And with respect this was not an answer to the posed questions either.

You have introduced a word purely. Clearly fans (the some) and I would disagree. This gesture is not pure. This gesture has associations. These associations are negative hence the gesture and only this gesture creates this negativity. Its ignorant to ignore what is a fact. Its ignorant to blithely plow on and expect differing outcomes when you know what you are doing/about to do creates negativity. 

What the Supporters Trust should have done is ask why? 

A tool. Think of someone taking the knee. Will your responses, the feelings you have be the same as somebody elses and the answer will be no. To deny that again is ignorant. Humans are not all wired the same. We have influential parts of society (and its not a right wing con) telling people taking the knee has negative associations and its not solely an anti racist gesture .. And we internalise this information differently. Our own experiences shape how we will feel emotion. A gesture can instantly lead to feelings pleasure or revulsion or indifference and on. The tool. People identify taking the knee with BLM. A vision that stirs emotion, really does .. To not accept that ignores how our brains work, more ignorance.   

That said, if a club makes it abundently clear that they are doing an action purely as an anti-racism gesture and it is absolutely not political and has no other connotations, what other answer is there to fans booing that action? You have already answered this move away from the flawed gesture. 

I'd hate to live in your head where a gesture supporting equality and against discrimination is somehow negative. WTF?! The only negativity is in the minds of those that corrupt this gesture with their own bigotry and agenda.  You CHOOSE to believe it's something it is not.  You CHOOSE to view something positive and turn into something negative.

If you are so outraged and you believe the players and club have a different agenda than what they say, then stop coming.  

If the players were out there making a seig heil gesture, then I would stop coming to games and turn my back on City.  I would find something else to do on a Saturday.

I think they should play 'One Love' by Bob Marley or 'Young, gifted and black' before the game and let all of us that believe in equality and respect for all celebrate that.  

 

 

(And let's not trot out that the seig heil gesture was originally a Roman salute that was corrupted by the Nazis.  That may be so, but THE WHOLE WORLD understand what it's come to mean.   You and a small minority are the few intent on linking taking the knee to a vague political agenda of some disparate BLM groups). 

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17 minutes ago, TBW said:

I don't see myself as left. I didn't vote the last election as I couldn't decide between the two. Both shit.

As above. Didn't vote the last election as I'm not aligned either side. There are many more issues than this at stake that voting goes into. 

Mistakes in there?

Also, defunding the Police and Anti Capitalism is definitely agenda from people on the right. Regardless of that, why the need to try and belittle someone who could have had a poorer education than yourself, whilst then calling for equality? Seems very hypocritical to me, but I must assume you "pull up" every single post you read on here that has a spelling mistake or some bad grammar, or is it just the ones when you don't agree with the poster so you choose to go down that route?

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29 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You chose to include the word purely. Yours theirs .. But this gesture is not pure in all minds is it? Its not pure in the minds of all media? All politicians (left and right)? All influencers? Our experiences? 

To ignore that and state its pure is ignorant. You (?) and whoever are deciding you can see what people really think and feel. You (?) are deciding what people should think. Telling them so and on. Arrogant? Ignorant? Both.

I don't make up associations. People in this thread are expressing theirs not mine. I accept their views sincerely exist as facts. Ignorance would not.  

The mesage behind this gesture as poster after poster has stated has not been consistent. Its was undeniably linked to BLM. All over grounds, on shirts etc. That is damage, that is flawed as a form of communication.

An issue is the gesture. It should not be. 

You have still yet to answer why only this gesture causes this negativity? What is the stigma with this pure (!) act?  

In regards to your last line. Sorry but I don't understand what you think. I thought after reading your posts you think the act should be changed,  but now don't .. Its either effective or not. Giving in, pandering isn't what its all about .. Nonsense that. Wrong. 

Improvement can be made. A more unifying message can be created. 

You are using the wrong definition of pure. I even put it in my reply to be clear.

Again, never stated it was "pure", wrong definition - that doesn't even make sense.

I'm not telling anyone what to think or feel, the club are telling people why they are taking the action they are. The club have acknowledged there may be "inconsistency" or doubt about the reasons, so they've explicitly addressed that and confirmed exactly why they are taking the knee.

How do you compare it to another gesture? What other gesture has been done at almost every game all over the country for the last 12 months to compare it to? Also, again, stop saying "pure" as that is not what I said.

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1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

Why is this the answer all the time? If people don't want to read it, don't open it. The subject is very clear. Burying it away somewhere else doesn't get us anywhere and there are some good ideas being shared too.

It's football related, it's City related and it's going to come up every week if you hide it away each time.

It won't be hidden away, it will be in the identical thread in the politics forum that has been running for ages, with all the same relentless contributions from the virtually the same people. Its become utterly pointless trying discuss anything different about it due to the same entrenched views expressed.

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31 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

It won't be hidden away, it will be in the identical thread in the politics forum that has been running for ages, with all the same relentless contributions from the virtually the same people. Its become utterly pointless trying discuss anything different about it due to the same entrenched views expressed.

Well it would be hidden from me, as I've no interest in politics, but am opposed to racial discrimination.

Oh the irony! 

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43 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

You are using the wrong definition of pure. I even put it in my reply to be clear.

Again, never stated it was "pure", wrong definition - that doesn't even make sense.

I'm not telling anyone what to think or feel, the club are telling people why they are taking the action they are. The club have acknowledged there may be "inconsistency" or doubt about the reasons, so they've explicitly addressed that and confirmed exactly why they are taking the knee.

How do you compare it to another gesture? What other gesture has been done at almost every game all over the country for the last 12 months to compare it to? Also, again, stop saying "pure" as that is not what I said.

Yes people are being told what to think. The Trust in their clumsy statement are doing that - Taking the knee is a simple and respectful anti-racism gesture. Clearly its not so simple. 

Ashton Gate has seen other anti racist iniatives (kick it out). The reception? I and others recall no open negativity from fans. Why? Because of the lack of negative association/associations. Others views and mine. That is a relevant history longer than twelve months.

Bristol City fans are overwhelmingly anti racist. We have not suddenly changed. However a gesture has now entered the football. There is open negativity to this one gesture.   

Bin the gesture. Choose something less compex. Choose something more inclusive that reflects a broader all.

 

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46 minutes ago, swanker said:

Apparently using the word “Curry” is now causing offence? 

Well I never, what shall I say when I phone up the Chilli Inn next weekend with my order? It’ll have to be a Tandoori Mixed Grill from now on?

No idea what that has to do with thread but no, it isn't

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51 minutes ago, swanker said:

Apparently using the word “Curry” is now causing offence? 

Well I never, what shall I say when I phone up the Chilli Inn next weekend with my order? It’ll have to be a Tandoori Mixed Grill from now on?

I doubt it’s causing much offence, but the word has always been a little controversial as it is not a word used on the Indian subcontinent.  I believe it was a ‘catch-all word’ from the British Raj to describe food of a very broad type.  As such it probably causes as much offence as the French’s use of the word ‘crap’ to describe all British food.

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2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City fans are overwhelmingly anti racist. We have not suddenly changed. However a gesture has now entered the football. There is open negativity to this one gesture.   

Bin the gesture. Choose something less compex. Choose something more inclusive that reflects a broader all.

Well said Cowshed. 

What an alternative gesture should be is not as straightforward as it might seem tho. 
 

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Well said Cowshed. 

What an alternative gesture should be is not as straightforward as it might seem tho. 
 

ANY gesture, and I mean any, including the present one, would be ok because it has been chosen by the club to represent a cause, a very important cause.

If anybody is opposed to it, just complain to the club, FA, EFL etc. don’t boo the players on the pitch just before they are about to compete!

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Taking the knee has got people talking about racism, and it’s nice to hear how instantly City fans (and England fans in the Euros) have taken up clapping to drown out the boos. Hopefully this is a regular thing  

And those saying this is political, have a ******* word with yourself. Racism isn’t political.

 

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6 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I would suggest that it is dumped in the long running  thread in the politics forum. All the same type of comments going round and round and round and round for ever.

Damn straight! Christ alive this thread is soul destroying for normal people. 

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To those who disagree with the gesture, surely the best way to have it fade away is to ignore it - the club/players are very unlikely to stop right now due to the likely accusations of giving in to the few that are booing.

 

I'm not convinced that this specific gesture is the best way for the message to be given (I like the heart-shape that somebody mentioned a few pages ago...) but I certainly associate with the intentions of the gesture as clearly stated in the club statement.  Bringing in your own interpretations is similar to a teenager deciding you are trying to control him when you won't stump up for something he has decided he deserves - you have told them why you are doing what you are, but they decide that it is for a different reason nevertheless

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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes booing what people may perceive to be political is not racism. 

But the club, that you support and follow, have told you it’s not political, AT ALL.

So, because of this, the booing is racist.

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17 minutes ago, QuedgeRed said:

But the club, that you support and follow, have told you it’s not political, AT ALL.

So, because of this, the booing is racist.

And the cycle continues. 

You appear to have missed a word. Perceive.

As posters have expained at length, hats off to @TheReds the introduction of taking the knee into football grounds was political. So to state it now isn't at all, and to ignore poster after posters views is uneven.

That you disagree with views does not make individuals booing what they may perceive as political/formerly political racist. 

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As Cowshed has said (and I suggested months back),bin the knee gesture and just link arms/arms around the shoulder on the centre circle. 

Lummydaze, they’ve changed the message now to ‘all types of discrimination’, so changing the gesture logically follows. 

How difficult is that? Group hug is a British ‘thing’ not US, it’s more pally and has no political undertones whatsoever and reflects the new message and makes it distinct from what has gone before. So every colour, class,caste, religion, sexuality, disability can unite and share the message.
 

Simples. In fact, so simples even the FA might have the ability to deliver it - or perhaps not. 

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25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And the cycle continues. 

You appear to have missed a word. Perceive.

As posters have expained at length, hats off to @TheReds the introduction of taking the knee into football grounds was political. So to state it now isn't at all, and to ignore poster after posters views is uneven.

That you disagree with views does not make individuals booing what they may perceive as political/formerly political racist. 

Ffs, it was NEVER political, it was always about racism in football.

Things move on too.

Even if anyone believed it WAS political, your club is now telling you it’s not.

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35 minutes ago, RedRock said:

As Cowshed has said (and I suggested months back),bin the knee gesture and just link arms/arms around the shoulder on the centre circle. 

Lummydaze, they’ve changed the message now to ‘all types of discrimination’, so changing the gesture logically follows. 

How difficult is that? Group hug is a British ‘thing’ not US, it’s more pally and has no political undertones whatsoever and reflects the new message and makes it distinct from what has gone before. So every colour, class,caste, religion, sexuality, disability can unite and share the message.
 

Simples. In fact, so simples even the FA might have the ability to deliver it - or perhaps not. 

The sheer arrogance of this.

The world of football should change the gesture it uses because YOU have decided it’s linked to something that they have repeatedly explained it is not.

Why should they have to change for a problem created in your own head?

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7 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

The sheer arrogance of this.

The world of football should change the gesture it uses because YOU have decided it’s linked to something that they have repeatedly explained it is not.

Why should they have to change for a problem created in your own head?

Just me then? Yeah.

Assume you thought it was ‘sheer arrogance’ that the FA, Sky, Bristol City changed the message from BLM to ‘all forms of discrimination’ because they didn’t ask YOU.
 

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1 hour ago, QuedgeRed said:

But the club, that you support and follow, have told you it’s not political, AT ALL.

So, because of this, the booing is racist.

Some of the booing will come from racists

Some of the booing will come from fans who have just had enough of being preached to

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