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Supporters Club & Trust Statement: Taking The Knee (Merged)


Redandproud

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12 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Some of the booing will come from racists

Some of the booing will come from fans who have just had enough of being preached to

Hardly think a group of people kneeling silently for a minute could be classed as preaching

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26 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Just me then? Yeah.

Assume you thought it was ‘sheer arrogance’ that the FA, Sky, Bristol City changed the message from BLM to ‘all forms of discrimination’ because they didn’t ask YOU.
 

What? You are the one suggesting they change. 
 

Your second point makes little sense. Why would they ask me?

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Luton announce players will NOT take the knee, claiming it is 'misinterpreted as a political statement' and will stand together on the centre circle instead - days after EFL throw support behind teams making the gesture
Luton announce their players will not take the knee before matches next season
The club said the gesture has been 'misinterpreted as a political statement'
Instead, the club said Luton players will stand together around the centre circle 
The decision comes after the EFL said it will support players taking the kn

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6 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

What? You are the one suggesting they change. 
 

Your second point makes little sense. Why would they ask me?

Part 1. Well, you seem to imply that no one has the right to suggest changing the gesture - even though I set out the clear logic. Let’s make it simple for you though. An advertiser switches product. Would they use the same advert to promote that new product? Probably not. 

Part 2. So, you’re implying no one has the right to comment or promote a change of the knee gesture. Who then authorised the change of message? Did they ask you, for instance, as you think anyone else’s viewpoint on the taking of the knee and any suggested new body pose is arrogant, one assumes you feel sufficiently ‘worthy’ to be consulted on such a change. 
 

BTW… I don’t boo, I don’t clap… just think gesturing is pointless American superficial tokenism but hey, if you believe gestures change the world and hearts and minds, that’s you’re right. 

 

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On 08/08/2021 at 12:20, BS2 Red said:

There is no "BLM" organisation, there are many groups that use the name. Again, this has been explained countless times.

Seriously?

I sit totally on the fence with this one - I can see the merits of both sides of this argument - but for you to say “there is no BLM organisation” is just ridiculous - here’s a link to their website where they state they are a “global organisation” ... https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

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2 hours ago, QuedgeRed said:

Ffs, it was NEVER political, it was always about racism in football.

Things move on too.

Even if anyone believed it WAS political, your club is now telling you it’s not.

Your use of ffs and caps locks does not deligitimise what is a fact. There is a contrary view within this thread, in the ground and grounds, and in the media, expressed by politicans, political commenatators that associates taking the knee with politics. Stating its not now does not alter history in all minds.  

Bristol City can bin this flawed gesture. Bristol City can adopt something more inclusive and less divisive. Like the rugby do. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, mozo said:

The lesson learned from these multiple threads is that nobody is willing to change their mind on this. 

There will be no reconciliation on this issue. At least not any time soon. 

But it is important to speak up on issues you care about. These threads are worthwhile in my opinion. Annoying as they can be, it's good to talk really. Looking at the bigger picture, debate hopefully leads to some kind of progress. ?

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7 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I sit totally on the fence with this one - I can see the merits of both sides of this argument - but for you to say “there is no BLM organisation” is just ridiculous - here’s a link to their website where they state they are a “global organisation” ... https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

And here is a statement on the BLM UK website:

Disclaimer: We are NEITHER associated or affiliated with @ukblm registered (Sep 2020) with FCA under the name 'Black Liberation Movement UK' nor are will affiliated to BLM USA and or any other political party or group here in the UK or abroad.

https://blacklivesmatter.uk/about-us/

So that's a BLM group that isn't part of ukblm or BLM USA. 

So just from one website we can see there are at least 3 groups. 

So, no, I wasn't being ridiculous.

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8 hours ago, RedRock said:

Part 1. Well, you seem to imply that no one has the right to suggest changing the gesture - even though I set out the clear logic. Let’s make it simple for you though. An advertiser switches product. Would they use the same advert to promote that new product? Probably not. 

Part 2. So, you’re implying no one has the right to comment or promote a change of the knee gesture. Who then authorised the change of message? Did they ask you, for instance, as you think anyone else’s viewpoint on the taking of the knee and any suggested new body pose is arrogant, one assumes you feel sufficiently ‘worthy’ to be consulted on such a change. 
 

BTW… I don’t boo, I don’t clap… just think gesturing is pointless American superficial tokenism but hey, if you believe gestures change the world and hearts and minds, that’s you’re right. 

 

Part 1: But they haven't changed product, it was never directly to support the BLM political movement. That's just an association made by the right wing grifters. You can suggest changing it but the need to change is driven by a minority of boo-ers so to expect it change just for them is, in my eyes, silly.

Part 2: Whilst I'd love to be on some sort of board that helps decides footballers behaviour, I haven't had an invite yet and am not expecting one. The footballers can choose the message they want. Again the need for a new pose is driven by the boo-ers, so I'm not sure why anyone would need to be consulted?

On your last point, fair play. It's a far more logical and mature response than booing your own players?

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9 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

Some of the booing will come from racists

Some of the booing will come from fans who have just had enough of being preached to

You may be right but my thoughts are that unfortunately the vast majority who are showing displeasure at players kneeling are, whether they admit or not inherently racist. 

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11 hours ago, Cowshed said:

And the cycle continues. 

You appear to have missed a word. Perceive.

As posters have expained at length, hats off to @TheReds the introduction of taking the knee into football grounds was political. So to state it now isn't at all, and to ignore poster after posters views is uneven.

That you disagree with views does not make individuals booing what they may perceive as political/formerly political racist. 

No, it makes them ignorant because they have been told the reasons and choose to believe their own ideas instead.

In answer to your previous question though (got caught up at work) I like @RedRock's idea of linking arms or something. Come out with a statement and say that whilst we re-affirm our position that taking of the knee is purely about discrimination and in no way political, we have decided that we will continue making a demonstration but have changed the gesture to avoid all doubt.

I think something like that should appease the boo'ers without being accused of giving in to them as the demonstration continues.

In an ideal world the boo'ers would just keep quiet for 3 seconds, but clearly that isn't possible

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10 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

Some of the booing will come from racists

Some of the booing will come from fans who have just had enough of being preached to

Being preached to? I thought it was the connection with BLM they didn't like?

How is it preaching, to protest against racism?

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2 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

And here is a statement on the BLM UK website:

Disclaimer: We are NEITHER associated or affiliated with @ukblm registered (Sep 2020) with FCA under the name 'Black Liberation Movement UK' nor are will affiliated to BLM USA and or any other political party or group here in the UK or abroad.

https://blacklivesmatter.uk/about-us/

So that's a BLM group that isn't part of ukblm or BLM USA. 

So just from one website we can see there are at least 3 groups. 

So, no, I wasn't being ridiculous.

Thanks for the response. However, your original post to which I replied stated that “There is no BLM organisation” - yet you’ve now posted a link to a BLM website asking for donations etc so it clearly is an organisation. Anyway, that aside, the process of taking a knee was a direct consequence of what happened to George Floyd in the USA, the BLM movement urged people across the globe to take a knee to support them and their aims after George Floyd’s death. And many, many people did - including our police officers during the BLM demonstrations in London last year. This is why footballers started taking the knee in this country - even though they now say the gesture is not linked to any political movement etc. And on the BLM website it clearly states they are a ‘global organisation in the US, UK and Canada’ - so they obviously believe they have links to the UK and BLM activities here.

Anyway, it’s a topic that can be debated all day but I was simply replying to your original post which said “There is no BLM organisation” - but there obviously is - albeit in varying guises and forms around the world - as you’ve demonstrated in your post above. 

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1 hour ago, Redinthehead said:

Part 1: But they haven't changed product, it was never directly to support the BLM political movement. That's just an association made by the right wing grifters. You can suggest changing it but the need to change is driven by a minority of boo-ers so to expect it change just for them is, in my eyes, silly.

Part 2: Whilst I'd love to be on some sort of board that helps decides footballers behaviour, I haven't had an invite yet and am not expecting one. The footballers can choose the message they want. Again the need for a new pose is driven by the boo-ers, so I'm not sure why anyone would need to be consulted?

On your last point, fair play. It's a far more logical and mature response than booing your own players?

Sorry, while my main concern that gestures diverts attention/energy away from addressing real issues, I do totally understand why people associate BLM with the political movement that uses the same name, the same logo, the same gesture. Probably a view reinforced in the UK by the Social Workers Party - who I assume we can agree are a political movement - making sure their BLM placards and members are centre-stage at most events. 

Yes you can say, I suppose, we’ll we’re not going to allow political groups to hijack the gesture. The knee however wasn’t a British gesture, few knew it existed before the US BLM ‘political movement’ adopted it … so in the UK the link between the knee and BLM politics exists.  
 

Even if you accept your view that the knee is non-political, I assume all accept its connected with the BLM campaign. Given the campaign message has changed to ‘all discrimination’, why retain the gesture that solely relates to BLM - a gesture that doesn’t communicate the message of discrimination against sexuality, caste, disability, religion etc? Simple to change it. Why not? 
 

I assume footballers are saying now this BLM-associated gesture isn’t either political or BLM.  Personally, can see why that’s causing issues myself. That’s like bring a new product to the market but using the same packaging and slogan…and trying to convince people ‘really, even though it looks the same, it is new, trust me’. 


In my opinion, always best to keep politics or any association with politics out of attempts to resolve complex problem-solving.

From my experience, having worked for my entire career in problem-solving, all the best decisions are made when everyone leaves their political baggage/posturing outside the room, with common sense applied after thorough and open analysis of the issues. The only way we’re going to address issues such as discrimination is by getting politics or any association with politics out of the debate. Gesturing ain’t going to solve matters either. 

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9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Thanks for the response. However, your original post to which I replied stated that “There is no BLM organisation” - yet you’ve now posted a link to a BLM website asking for donations etc so it clearly is an organisation. Anyway, that aside, the process of taking a knee was a direct consequence of what happened to George Floyd

It's not "an" organisation. It's many organisations. My post should have probably said "there is no single BLM organisation", but it was pretty clear what I meant from the context of the post and it's very pedantic to get hung up on that little bit of wording.

As for taking the knee, it started long before George Floyd was murdered. It started in English football after the murder of George Floyd. See, I can be pedantic too. ;) 

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1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Sorry, while my main concern that gestures diverts attention/energy away from addressing real issues, I do totally understand why people associate BLM with the political movement that uses the same name, the same logo, the same gesture. Probably a view reinforced in the UK by the Social Workers Party - who I assume we can agree are a political movement - making sure their BLM placards and members are centre-stage at most events. 

Yes you can say, I suppose, we’ll we’re not going to allow political groups to hijack the gesture. The knee however wasn’t a British gesture, few knew it existed before the US BLM ‘political movement’ adopted it … so in the UK the link between the knee and BLM politics exists.  
 

Even if you accept your view that the knee is non-political, I assume all accept its connected with the BLM campaign. Given the campaign message has changed to ‘all discrimination’, why retain the gesture that solely relates to BLM - a gesture that doesn’t communicate the message of discrimination against sexuality, caste, disability, religion etc? Simple to change it. Why not? 
 

I assume footballers are saying now this BLM-associated gesture isn’t either political or BLM.  Personally, can see why that’s causing issues myself. That’s like bring a new product to the market but using the same packaging and slogan…and trying to convince people ‘really, even though it looks the same, it is new, trust me’. 


In my opinion, always best to keep politics or any association with politics out of attempts to resolve complex problem-solving.

From my experience, having worked for my entire career in problem-solving, all the best decisions are made when everyone leaves their political baggage/posturing outside the room, with common sense applied after thorough and open analysis of the issues. The only way we’re going to address issues such as discrimination is by getting politics or any association with politics out of the debate. Gesturing ain’t going to solve matters either. 

I get that, however, they've chosen the knee as this gesture. I see it as that simple, I don't see any need to link to BLM given the statements made by the club.

In terms of it's effectiveness, I'm not convinced it's going to solve anything in itself but if the players believe it's the right thing to do in order to keep anti-racism in the public conscious I'm in no place to argue with that decision. 

On your last point I entirely agree but I think the only political baggage here is people still linking this with BLM/Marxism/defunding the police etc. regardless of any statement or explanation to the contrary.

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2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

No, it makes them ignorant because they have been told the reasons and choose to believe their own ideas instead.

In answer to your previous question though (got caught up at work) I like @RedRock's idea of linking arms or something. Come out with a statement and say that whilst we re-affirm our position that taking of the knee is purely about discrimination and in no way political, we have decided that we will continue making a demonstration but have changed the gesture to avoid all doubt.

I think something like that should appease the boo'ers without being accused of giving in to them as the demonstration continues.

In an ideal world the boo'ers would just keep quiet for 3 seconds, but clearly that isn't possible

The point about alternatives was raised in the politcs sub section months ago. Obvious problems with this gesture were always evident. A why clubs and all have changed their messaging. That kick back still occurs is logical. Kick back was predicted (this forum) months ago if this gesture was used. 

Einsteins definition of stupidity applies above. Ignorance. Thick as shit expecting different. 

Appeasement does not come into it. Politicising anti racism was a bad idea.

We collectively are anti racist. Bristol City fans are anti racist. Bristol City fans have an anti racist history. This anti racism is not the same as BLM's which believes in white privilege, systemic racism, defunding the police, out there weirdness about nuclear families ...That was one obvious problematic challenge. I could have highlighted others as posters have. 

RedRock time.  

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

In my opinion, always best to keep politics or any association with politics out of attempts to resolve complex problem-solving.

From my experience, having worked for my entire career in problem-solving, all the best decisions are made when everyone leaves their political baggage/posturing outside the room, with common sense applied after thorough and open analysis of the issues. The only way we’re going to address issues such as discrimination is by getting politics or any association with politics out of the debate. Gesturing ain’t going to solve matters either. 

Politics should not have been brought into football. Football got in to bed with identitarian politics. Stating oh no we didn't, it isn't sorry while the semen stains are still over the sheets is still noticed. The outcome by politicising anti discrimination should have been predicted. Anti racism should not be the hegemony of political sides. 

 

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10 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Your use of ffs and caps locks does not deligitimise what is a fact. There is a contrary view within this thread, in the ground and grounds, and in the media, expressed by politicans, political commenatators that associates taking the knee with politics. Stating its not now does not alter history in all minds.  

Bristol City can bin this flawed gesture. Bristol City can adopt something more inclusive and less divisive. Like the rugby do. 

But that's too easy we need to railroad everyone who disagrees into knowing they are racist. Give it 10 games and this will change.  I can't wait until the televised premiere league games and the  inevitable fallout. 

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My view on this is very simple. I will respect that the players see this as the best way to support their friends and colleagues in highlighting an anti racism message, a message that I and millions of other wholeheartedly support. I couldn’t give two ****s if someone is butthurt that they don’t like taking a knee because it supposedly reminds them of the BLM movement because in truth it long precedes that. And the overarching message of the worldwide BLM movement is infact racial equality. 
My opinion of anyone booing isn’t ‘oh he must be against the blah blah blah’, it’s ‘this guy isn’t supporting an anti racism campaign’, and it’s not even not supporting an anti racism campaign it’s loudly and vocally protesting it. Protesting anti racism messages. Ffs. 
Moan, downvote, protest all you like. Thats how I view it. And I’m not alone. 

If you boo players taking the knee I will applaud it louder to drown you out. If I hear you making racist comments I will report you. 


I’m so so sick of this. 

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Granted most people agree with the reasons for this gesture. It is a political gesture though. What if they started protesting about people who vote Tory or eat meat or drive a petrol car. I say just play football and give us 90 minutes escapism from the problems of the world.

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1 minute ago, Davo370 said:

Granted most people agree with the reasons for this gesture. It is a political gesture though. What if they started protesting about people who vote Tory or eat meat or drive a petrol car. I say just play football and give us 90 minutes escapism from the problems of the world.

Racism isn’t political. 
 

I’m also genuinely shocked you just compared racism to any of these things. You might want 90 minutes escapism, some people just wanted to be treated like an equal human being. Some of our own players just want to play football for our club without being subjected to racist abuse if they have a bad game. 

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16 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

I get that, however, they've chosen the knee as this gesture. I see it as that simple, I don't see any need to link to BLM given the statements made by the club.

In terms of it's effectiveness, I'm not convinced it's going to solve anything in itself but if the players believe it's the right thing to do in order to keep anti-racism in the public conscious I'm in no place to argue with that decision. 

On your last point I entirely agree but I think the only political baggage here is people still linking this with BLM/Marxism/defunding the police etc. regardless of any statement or explanation to the contrary.

The Club don’t need to make BLM statements, they’ve adopted the BLM gesture!

Probably would have been a lot simpler for them to have chosen another body-shape to demonstrate they were embracing ‘ all forms of discrimination’ and show inclusiveness. But hey, they’re footballers not brain-surgeons and, yeah, it’s only a gesture.
 
There seems little point arguing further on the politics - some clearly associate BLM with political movements (the SWP link?), others think that because those undertaking the knee have said it’s been repackaged as a non- political act everyone should believe them.

That’s fine, as long as people respect the right to take the opposing view. I can see both sides of the argument and each has some merit, others though appear more blinkered and can only see things through their own narrow lens.


Anyhow, ‘saving the planet’ is my interest, so I’m off to do some direct habitat management action for the benefit of creatures that are being decimated by humans of all races, colours and creeds. 
 

Have a good day. 

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18 minutes ago, RedRock said:

The Club don’t need to make BLM statements, they’ve adopted the BLM gesture!

Probably would have been a lot simpler for them to have chosen another body-shape to demonstrate they were embracing ‘ all forms of discrimination’ and show inclusiveness. But hey, they’re footballers not brain-surgeons and, yeah, it’s only a gesture.
 
There seems little point arguing further on the politics - some clearly associate BLM with political movements (the SWP link?), others think that because those undertaking the knee have said it’s been repackaged as a non- political act everyone should believe them.

That’s fine, as long as people respect the right to take the opposing view. I can see both sides of the argument and each has some merit, others though appear more blinkered and can only see things through their own narrow lens.


Anyhow, ‘saving the planet’ is my interest, so I’m off to do some direct habitat management action for the benefit of creatures that are being decimated by humans of all races, colours and creeds. 
 

Have a good day. 

I don't see this chaining of the knee to BLM continually but fair points in general. Have a good day and good luck on your habitat management.

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