Supporters Club & Trust Statement: Taking The Knee (Merged)

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Dredd said:

My view on this is very simple. I will respect that the players see this as the best way to support their friends and colleagues in highlighting an anti racism message, a message that I and millions of other wholeheartedly support. I couldn’t give two ****s if someone is butthurt that they don’t like taking a knee because it supposedly reminds them of the BLM movement because in truth it long precedes that. And the overarching message of the worldwide BLM movement is infact racial equality. 
My opinion of anyone booing isn’t ‘oh he must be against the blah blah blah’, it’s ‘this guy isn’t supporting an anti racism campaign’, and it’s not even not supporting an anti racism campaign it’s loudly and vocally protesting it. Protesting anti racism messages. Ffs. 
Moan, downvote, protest all you like. Thats how I view it. And I’m not alone. 

If you boo players taking the knee I will applaud it louder to drown you out. If I hear you making racist comments I will report you. 

I’m so so sick of this. 

This is spot on IMO. They are actively protesting against an anti-racism movement and that is the "racist impact" (which was badly worded IMO) that the SC&T is refering to.

 

1 hour ago, Davo370 said:

Granted most people agree with the reasons for this gesture. It is a political gesture though. What if they started protesting about people who vote Tory or eat meat or drive a petrol car. I say just play football and give us 90 minutes escapism from the problems of the world.

This makes no sense. What has racism got to do with eating meat and driving a car? Racism isn't something to be debated about whether it's good or bad like eating meat or driving a car might be!

I'm sure the footballers would love to just play football and then not have to go back and receive abuse after the game, but here we are. People like you want them to just shut up and take it. They might actually play better if they didn't have to worry about what abuse they might receive later on.

[BS2 Red]

There have been a lot of people claiming the majority of racist abuse came from abroad.

That wasn't true. We have plenty of racists in the UK and most of them are too bloody stupid to hide behind anonymous accounts.

[BS4 on Tour...]

6 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

It's not "an" organisation. It's many organisations. My post should have probably said "there is no single BLM organisation", but it was pretty clear what I meant from the context of the post and it's very pedantic to get hung up on that little bit of wording.

As for taking the knee, it started long before George Floyd was murdered. It started in English football after the murder of George Floyd. See, I can be pedantic too.  

I don’t believe I was being pedantic but I will be now - I said in my previous post that the BLM movement urged people to take a knee after George Floyd’s death - I didn’t say that was the first time that action had occurred - I’m fully aware the ‘taking a knee’ gesture is widely believed to have originated during an American Football game in 2016. At least we agree that UK footballers started taking a knee as a result of George Floyd’s death.

Anyway, cheers for the debate, have a great Tuesday ...

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

2 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

There have been a lot of people claiming the majority of racist abuse came from abroad.

That wasn't true. We have plenty of racists in the UK and most of them are too bloody stupid to hide behind anonymous accounts.

I think I know who I would rather belive the Police who are trying to be part of the solution than a company who is part of the problem.  The metadata in a tweet has the IP from where it was posted the police use that.  

[BS2 Red]

31 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I think I know who I would rather belive the Police who are trying to be part of the solution than a company who is part of the problem.  The metadata in a tweet has the IP from where it was posted the police use that.  

Ok.

Where have the police said the tweets mostly came from abroad? Where do you think the police are getting the IP addresses from? Why would Twitter lie about the national origin of the tweets?

 

[MarcusX]

43 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I think I know who I would rather belive the Police who are trying to be part of the solution than a company who is part of the problem.  The metadata in a tweet has the IP from where it was posted the police use that.  

And the Police would get that data from someone other than Twitter?

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

And the Police would get that data from someone other than Twitter?

They get it from the PoP provider under the Investigatory Powers Act (2016), though it would have to be some serious and/or consistent abuse/threat to pass the threshold to obtain such information.

Twitter will have access to the IP though under IPA they may not divulge communications data without regulatory approval. That's a serious data breach.

[TheReds]

3 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

There have been a lot of people claiming the majority of racist abuse came from abroad.

That wasn't true. We have plenty of racists in the UK and most of them are too bloody stupid to hide behind anonymous accounts.

Am I missing something in that report? Are they just saying the majority came from the UK and not reporting any stats, or are they suggesting 34 out of 207 is a majority (as I thought that was the number widely reported the past couple of weeks). 

[BS2 Red]

7 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Am I missing something in that report? Are they just saying the majority came from the UK and not reporting any stats, or are they suggesting 34 out of 207 is a majority (as I thought that was the number widely reported the past couple of weeks). 

Sky haven't worded it very well.

34 out of 207 were deemed to be criminal.

The majority of abusive tweets (not necessarily criminal) were from the UK.

Here's Twitter's full statement:

 

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, TheReds said:

Am I missing something in that report? Are they just saying the majority came from the UK and not reporting any stats, or are they suggesting 34 out of 207 is a majority (as I thought that was the number widely reported the past couple of weeks). 

From what I just heard on the news Twitter state they used automated tools to block racist comments, there was almost 2000 of these and 99% of the posters were identifiable.

[QuedgeRed]

19 hours ago, Cowshed said:

  Bristol City can bin this flawed gesture. Bristol City can adopt something more inclusive and less divisive. Like the rugby do. 

 

 

They certainly aren’t gonna bin it by being booed that’s for sure!

[TheReds]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

'We're a nation of racists' , this topic has further exposed that and now there's further stats to back it up. 

What utter nonsense. Are there racists in this country - without a doubt. A Nation of racists - behave yourself. 

You can simply work out the amount of tweets and divide by the amount of people in "this Nation", and that may well be a good starting point to working out a fairer assessment, or find out how many tweets were sent in total after the Final. A massive issue with what is going on with this country, is people like yourself and the media, who just simply want to tell everyone they are racist because they simply don't believe a view of something, or we should all apologise for something that happened decades or even centuries ago, our ancestors did something bad, our terrible white privilege etc etc. What happened in History is indeed History, all (well the huge majority anyway) the people in this country live by different morals today - some obviously don't though, but don't let that stop you.

What is being done about modern day slavery? Sweatshops in Birmingham, Leicester etc are well known, and they are probably all over the country. What about what goes on in China? Whilst we all conveniently say nothing whilst we live our lives with their technology and products - many of which would have been made by someone earning a pittance, but that's all ok, happy days I got the new iPhone. 

Let's see what all of these players and Southgate actually do regarding playing in Qatar, see how outspoken they are before and after every game, a vile country which should never have got the World Cup, have killed thousands (over 6 thousand so far) of people since they won the rights to it, whilst also taking workers passports so they cannot leave or go home, a place where they kill gay people, oppress women etc, and a place we should all be boycotting. But that's all fine though, as long as you applaud some footballers taking the knee...

[QuedgeRed]

C’mon then, own up by posting on this thread.

Is there anyone on here that thinks that BCFC, or any of the players (despite them already stating to the contrary), are seriously aligning themselves with the BLM movement, or any of their policies?

Post away

[QuedgeRed]

8 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Let's see what all of these players and Southgate actually do regarding playing in Qatar, see how outspoken they are before and after every game, a vile country which should never have got the World Cup, have killed thousands (over 6 thousand so far) of people since they won the rights to it, whilst also taking workers passports so they cannot leave or go home, a place where they kill gay people, oppress women etc, and a place we should all be boycotting. But that's all fine though, as long as you applaud some footballers taking the knee...

I take it you’re switching off if we get there then?

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

There's no discussion now regarding booing the knee

'We're a nation of racists' , this topic has further exposed that and now there's further stats to back it up. 

If you are still determined to boo or want to suggest other ways that those abused stand up to stuff like this, er, further abusing them. 

Then like my last post. you are really going to think long and hard about the question "are you actually racist?" 

It's not an incendiary, it's a reflection thing for those who continue to oppose things as to why they do. 

 

Seriously?

[MarcusX]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

They get it from the PoP provider under the Investigatory Powers Act (2016), though it would have to be some serious and/or consistent abuse/threat to pass the threshold to obtain such information.

Twitter will have access to the IP though under IPA they may not divulge communications data without regulatory approval. That's a serious data breach.

It seems that the Police would have been referring to the messages that actually got through whereas Twitter would have had details of the ones they managed to block as well, just an assumption

[BTRFTG]

10 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It seems that the Police would have been referring to the messages that actually got through whereas Twitter would have had details of the ones they managed to block as well, just an assumption

Twitter have no authority to identify personal data. They may well 'reference' (sic) abuse or misuse of their terms, but it's neither verifiable, mensurate or meaningful. I think they've reported messages that got through (how might they otherwise block them?)

The Police on the other hand have to establish that the request for any data sought is lawful, necessary & proportionate against the terms identified in IPA (2016) All 3 conditions must be met for access to be independently approved. It's a real test counter checked by a highly trained official, magistrate, judge or even Secretary of State.

I should know as I helped establish the organisation responsible for so doing.

[TheReds]

8 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I've asked a very simple question. 

So simple, that you've launched in to a wandering diatribe to try and justify hate. 

It's not about others, deflection or comparing yourself to others to try amd justify your actions. (they're more of an a hole does not stop ypu from being one for example) 

Write a list of peoples down, just by race or ethnicity. 

If your first thought is negative about any of them, then reflect on what racism is, and ask yourself again, am I racist? 

Yes

You may see race everywhere and in everyone, the huge majority doesn't, but seeing as that doesn't suit your view or agenda then you cannot accept it. People like you are everywhere, wanting to cause division, wanting to up the ante on everything, spin the stats to suit your "everyone in racist" agenda.

"A nation of racists" - 34 tweets that were classed as criminal, from how many that were sent after the final exactly? 100 thousand, 1 million, 10 million, 50 million? A total of 11 arrests, so I will assume (and it is only an assumption), that some of those 11 people sent more than one awful abhorrent tweet. Can you give us a rough estimate of the percentages of actual racist tweets that were sent, to give us some actual relevant data?

There were plenty of relevant questions in my post, but because it doesn't suit your tunnel vision stance you just ignore them. 

Again, we will all see what Southgate and the England players really think about equality when they get to Qatar. Seeing as numerous players cares so much about taking the knee, it's amazing how many couldn't be bothered to do it in the Euros in front of their own fans, where they are from countries where they have huge racism issues, but that doesn't matter as long as we can call all of the UK racist.

I will leave it there as I have seen many of your posts, all the same stance, no debate, always right, name calling, virtuous, and no answers to questions etc.

So enjoy your evening.

[freezer]

Finally have come up with a solution to all this taking of the knee Bill hooks.

After yet another capitulation of holding a lead by our Championship players towards the end of a game, how about 'Kick It Out'? 

A slant on the original but with this one, instead of the players kneeling for 3-5 seconds, they use that time to instead each be given a ball and kick it, as far as they can off the pitch. It might help them to remember how to defend a lead late on, will physically show that they're kicking out racism and whatever else they're meant to be against, Is it all forms of discrimination, I'm confused. 

Maybe the balls could be rainbow coloured, but that's not totally inclusive is it? 

Anwsers on a postcard. 

@2015

15 pages, this one could run and run, or kneel and kneel. 

 

[MarcusX]

13 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

There's no discussion now regarding booing the knee

'We're a nation of racists' , this topic has further exposed that and now there's further stats to back it up. 

If you are still determined to boo or want to suggest other ways that those abused stand up to stuff like this, er, further abusing them. 

Then like my last post. you are really going to think long and hard about the question "are you actually racist?" 

It's not an incendiary, it's a reflection thing for those who continue to oppose things as to why they do. 

 

No we aren't and there's no need to be so dramatic as it just increases the division within the debate.

We have some racists, clearly. We aren't a nation full of them though!

[MarcusX]

9 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Twitter have no authority to identify personal data. They may well 'reference' (sic) abuse or misuse of their terms, but it's neither verifiable, mensurate or meaningful. I think they've reported messages that got through (how might they otherwise block them?)

The Police on the other hand have to establish that the request for any data sought is lawful, necessary & proportionate against the terms identified in IPA (2016) All 3 conditions must be met for access to be independently approved. It's a real test counter checked by a highly trained official, magistrate, judge or even Secretary of State.

I should know as I helped establish the organisation responsible for so doing.

Don't you think twitter's blocking feature has the ability to report on what it's captured and the accounts it's come from? From what they've said it sounds like the accounts weren't anonymous, could probably identify them simply by opening their twitter page and reading what the user has put out there themselves. That doesn't require any more authority than it would for you or I to look at it would it?

I don't doubt your greater knowledge in this area, just going by what Twitter have said. Of course you could argue they are reporting something to try and avoid ID verification being implemented.

 

[Lack of Action Man]

9 hours ago, TheReds said:

You may see race everywhere and in everyone, the huge majority doesn't, but seeing as that doesn't suit your view or agenda then you cannot accept it. People like you are everywhere, wanting to cause division, wanting to up the ante on everything, spin the stats to suit your "everyone in racist" agenda.

"A nation of racists" - 34 tweets that were classed as criminal, from how many that were sent after the final exactly? 100 thousand, 1 million, 10 million, 50 million? A total of 11 arrests, so I will assume (and it is only an assumption), that some of those 11 people sent more than one awful abhorrent tweet. Can you give us a rough estimate of the percentages of actual racist tweets that were sent, to give us some actual relevant data?

There were plenty of relevant questions in my post, but because it doesn't suit your tunnel vision stance you just ignore them. 

Again, we will all see what Southgate and the England players really think about equality when they get to Qatar. Seeing as numerous players cares so much about taking the knee, it's amazing how many couldn't be bothered to do it in the Euros in front of their own fans, where they are from countries where they have huge racism issues, but that doesn't matter as long as we can call all of the UK racist.

I will leave it there as I have seen many of your posts, all the same stance, no debate, always right, name calling, virtuous, and no answers to questions etc.

So enjoy your evening.

Fwiw I think you’ve put together a reasonable argument, I just don’t think those on either side of this particular debate will concede any ground from their particular opinion/view point. 
 

I’ll be interested to see what happens RE Qatar. 

 

 

[MarcusX]

7 hours ago, freezer said:

Finally have come up with a solution to all this taking of the knee Bill hooks.

After yet another capitulation of holding a lead by our Championship players towards the end of a game, how about 'Kick It Out'? 

A slant on the original but with this one, instead of the players kneeling for 3-5 seconds, they use that time to instead each be given a ball and kick it, as far as they can off the pitch. It might help them to remember how to defend a lead late on, will physically show that they're kicking out racism and whatever else they're meant to be against, Is it all forms of discrimination, I'm confused. 

Maybe the balls could be rainbow coloured, but that's not totally inclusive is it? 

Anwsers on a postcard. 

@2015

15 pages, this one could run and run, or kneel and kneel. 

 

How's the boycott?

[2015]

56 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Not dramatic, nor over sensitive. 

There's literally a glut of of information to back this up 

Including the likes of this https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/europe/black-britain-systemic-racism-cnn-poll-gbr-intl/index.html

If your post wants to ignore this or downplay this as it 'creates division' you will know what I'm going to ask next because simply people don't want to be abused be cause of race, yet at every step others will try every trick in the book to justify hate or minimise hate. 

I can't help that you don't think it's an issue. 

We need frank and open discussions, they will be challenging especially where people have been conditioned that there is 'no problem' when very clearly there is else there wouldn't be public displays to show that there is. 

Then again it very much depends where you are getting your sources and information from? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/race-commission-report-institutional-racism-b1824605.html

I'm not saying there aren't racists in UK, but to say a nation full of them is exactly why so many people struggle to get on board with the taking of the knee. It's people like you telling them off for something they know they aren't. Extreme views like that will cause a backlash

[TheReds]

59 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Not dramatic, nor over sensitive. 

There's literally a glut of of information to back this up 

Including the likes of this https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/europe/black-britain-systemic-racism-cnn-poll-gbr-intl/index.html

If your post wants to ignore this or downplay this as it 'creates division' you will know what I'm going to ask next because simply people don't want to be abused be cause of race, yet at every step others will try every trick in the book to justify hate or minimise hate. 

I can't help that you don't think it's an issue. 

We need frank and open discussions, they will be challenging especially where people have been conditioned that there is 'no problem' when very clearly there is else there wouldn't be public displays to show that there is. 

A CNN poll and report - may as well stick up a Fox one to counteract it. 

Again, upping the ante or just frankly telling lies? Who the hell is saying there isn't a problem, and who the hell is saying there is "no problem"? Nobody as far as I can tell. Yet you want to keep going down this line of "discussions", and call us all "a Nation of racists". 

The thing I find extremely odd, is you actually think we have all been conditioned to think there isn't a problem (when nobody has said that have they), you want to call us "a Nation of racists", which again is complete and utter nonsense and lies, and then have the audacity to say we have been conditioned!! There seems to be one person who has been conditioned and brainwashed, and that my friend, is you.

Extremism isn't good on either side of the fence.

 

[2015]

1 minute ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

You know that that government report has been ripped to shreads because of its 'accuracy' and may even cause issues with the UN??

Your post then states that 'It's people like me' that are the problem for wanting humans to be treated equally and not subject to hate, and that's consider that 'extreme' 

Right, okay then. Cant help you there. Perhaps look closer to home and why stuff like basic compassion and equality angers you so much. 

Yes it is people like you brandishing a whole collective of people as racists when that is not the truth. Compassion and equality doesn't anger me actually, it's people like you with these extreme views from the other side of the fence which stokes up this division even more. Yes - people like you!

[BS2 Red]

Saying the whole country is racist is silly.

Saying there's no/little racism in the country is silly.

The truth is that most racism is hidden and unreported. Most abuse suffered by minorities will not be reported. Most people will not report their family/friends who say/do something racist. Most bosses who (conscious or unconscious) discriminate will not get found out.

We have an image in our heads that racism is a BNP skinhead marching down the street chanting "send them all back!". The reality is most racists realised that doesn't work and learned to hide it.

For all the silly "crazy works!" stories that the press like to print, there are real and horrible stories and issues of racism faced by people.

Things have gotten better over the last few decades. We are no longer in the 70s where racism was so mainstream that it was the basis of comedy on prime time TV! 

It's great that things are better now, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we won the fight. Racism is still there and it's been growing over the last few years. Hopefully the spike at the moment is just a blip and it will fall back into retreat.

We will probably never win the fight against racism, it will probably always be there. But we must keep fighting against it and we should never ever give in to it.

[2015]

Just now, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Ah, the lesser spotted deflection post. 

Blame throwing because can't take that there's a collective responsibility. 

Cant start a conversation, if we cant even admit the basics.

Which is the club are taking the knee combat racism and all forms of discrimination, which they wouldnt do if racism wasnt a thing. 

Simply cant get out of that logic bomb, so we as society either take collective responsibility and act, or those who deny things keep burying the head in the sand because they cant even begin to admit there's an issue and people keep getting abused. 

It's not a difficult concept and it's really not all that hard to discuss. 

 

 

One did not say there isn't an issue.

You said we're a nation full of racists - it is simply not the collective's responsibility to stop an idiot going on social media and shouting racist abuse. Blame individuals, not the collective. If anything isn't that reverse racism from your end by blaming Britain as a whole? Rather than the actions of stupid individuals 

You also say that we are 'conditioned' - Well I think you are conditioned very much from a far left leaning perspective and you might be the one who has been brainwashed into collective thoughts, which is a dangerous route to go down.

I'm not denying racism doesn't exist, it certainly does - But I absolute oppose your belief that it's a nation full of them and we should all take the flak for a few very ill informed individuals.

[TheReds]

20 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Where's the extremism? 

Not wanting people to be racially abused on a daily basis, nor attacked, nor killed because of that is not extreme. 

It's basics of humanity. 

I'm sorry that you struggle with that and I'm also sorry you struggle so much with people trying to stop abuse. 

As I've mentioned, start by writing that list, if there's any immediate reaction, then this is where there's a problem :-

Jamaican 

Chinese

Romani

Polish

Syrian

There's a whole list to go through. 

It is hard to do and will be challenging for anyone who thinks they dont see colour or race. 

Self reflection is a good thing. 

 

 

Extremism - you are the extremist stating we are a Nation full of racists. Your stance is extreme, the trouble is you cannot see it whatsoever whilst telling people to look at themselves.

Who doesn't want the basics of humanity? Nobody is struggling with that. You are the one struggling here, by just typing stuff that hasn't even been said. As I have said numerous times now, we can see what Southgate and the England players really think of equality when it comes to Qatar, see if there is a statement pre and post match about how they treat people - you know, like the basics of humanity. 

I'm out anyway, as it really is pointless when you are just posting stuff that hasn't even been said.

Have a good day.

 

[MarcusX]

On 11/08/2021 at 08:29, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Not dramatic, nor over sensitive. 

There's literally a glut of of information to back this up 

Including the likes of this https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/europe/black-britain-systemic-racism-cnn-poll-gbr-intl/index.html

If your post wants to ignore this or downplay this as it 'creates division' you will know what I'm going to ask next because simply people don't want to be abused be cause of race, yet at every step others will try every trick in the book to justify hate or minimise hate. 

I can't help that you don't think it's an issue. 

We need frank and open discussions, they will be challenging especially where people have been conditioned that there is 'no problem' when very clearly there is else there wouldn't be public displays to show that there is. 

Sorry, not interested in debating too far with this but we are not "a nation of racists" (which implies were full of racism)

I never said racism wasn't an issue though. I know it is, I see it when you go away with football but it's always a couple of idiots amongst thousands of non-racists.

Does racism exist in the UK? Yes

Do I think there is work to be done to reduce it asap? Yes, of course

Is the whole country racist? No, obviously not.

I dont even think anyone on here that's opposed to the knee comes across as racist or discriminatory. Maybe a little unwilling to shift their mindset about what the knee represents but I dont think they are racist.