Carabao Cup Matchday No. 1 - Forest Green Rovers v. Bristol City

[Bodiesaffer]

1 minute ago, pl00peh91 said:

We are no giants.

To them we are. 

[glynriley]

10 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Er, in his first full season here he took us to the semi-finals of the tournament we just were dumped out of by a 4th tier club.  Not sure we ever lost a competitive match to a 4th Tier club under LJ?

First full season?

Aren't you confusing 'Cup semi final' with 'club record run of defeats'...?

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, glynriley said:

First full season?

Aren't you confusing 'Cup semi final' with 'club record run of defeats'...?

1 win in the last 15 competitive games isn't very inspiring though mate..! 

Nor is 2 points from last 8 home games. 

[BTRFTG]

8 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Looking at the Blackpool comment the other way around - how many of Blackpool's team would we take in our "first XI"? I can't say I'd be keen on very many at all.

Other than the crock Keogh I wouldn't recognise any of them were they stood on my toe. Saturday Blackpool were poor, but our equals. They created better chances than us. Their wage bill is magnitudes lower than ours. That's the true reason players tarry at AG, they're not very good and significantly overpaid. Other clubs fall for than less frequently than us.

 

[BTRFTG]

7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

However, at this club, signing fees were paid with selling fees. 

Remind what percentage of liability is incurred in acquiring a player?

Johnson took losses from under £6m per annum to over £30.

Unlike the other managers you reference, most have actually achieved something via their spending. Johnson didn't.

[Baba Yaga]

Bit of a comedown for Kalas going from beating the Netherlands to losing to Forest Green, hopefully he hasn't lost interest because all signs are pointing to a long difficult season ahead and he will be very important. Janneh I would say was the only bright spark from last night, looking at the midfield 3 picked it wasn't very creative so he stood out as a player willing to put a cross in even if it didn't come off, 2 goals will hopefully do his confidence some good but with only league games until after xmas now I'm not sure if he will get many minutes. Williams looked poor before going off, hopefully he will be back soon and get his fitness back to where he needs it to be. Fair play to Forest Green they didn't have as many chances as Blackpool to get back into it but they waited and they took the chance when it came. Disappointing night because they almost ended the winless run, hoping that will be over sooner rather than later although maybe it will be like the start of the O'Driscoll season who knows. 

[2015]

15 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Disappointing night because they almost ended the winless run, hoping that will be over sooner rather than later although maybe it will be like the start of the O'Driscoll season who knows. 

I think I'm getting the same feel as the beginning of that season right now. As bad as SOD was and NP has been results wise so far, we really are getting no luck at all

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, nick jones of hereford said:

We scored twice against FGR but only once against Blackpool.

maybe I misunderstood & your point was that we scored in two consecutive matches - I’m which case I apologise 

Thank you for you post , I wasn’t very clear .

 

[Clutton Caveman]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Add Vyner and Atkinson to that...Wells and Semenyo as well- Palmer has looked a bit better since the start of the season too.

Look we played FGR and our midfield got overrun. We had to play on the break. Our promised miracle midfield star is injured yet again.

Player quality you can't do much about but motivation, organisation and game management comes from the coaching staff and the head of our coaching teams prefers to be as far from the players as possible. 

[italian dave]

8 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Yeah: But that wasn’t what happened initially. Tomlin, Engval among several others were bought in. Yes I agree that in this regard it’s not necessarily important to point out that the players eventually/initially sold for big profits were not LJs players with a couple of obvious exceptions eventually 

Brownhill and Webster left for a lot of money. However we were ok initially it was Brownhill going in January that became a huge problem. 

My personal opinion is that LJ was as at least as responsible as SL and MA for approving the sale and not replacing these guys but it seems that he was given a pass as Ashton took the fall for purchases and sales with many and SL will always be ultimately responsible. After the restart we were terrible. There was only one place to look then. (We had been pretty poor leading up to the suspension of play)
 

Anyway. Pearson has chucked out a dozen of the hangers on and is tasked with cutting back elsewhere substantially. Not really the start LJ had IMO. 
 

 

Sure, all fair comment, and as I said my original comment was simply about the suggestion that NP has no money unless he sells being “diametrically opposite” to LJs position. I’m not trying to argue that both are in precisely the same position, just not diametrically opposite.

Tomlin of course was a success initially, and it was enormous fan pressure as much as anything that engineered a contract - what do we know, eh?!

I guess neither of us will ever know exactly what happens behind the scenes: I just got the impression that Johnson lost a bit of confidence in the direction of the club after the sale of Webster (I’m sure I can remember a few hints in comments he made) and lost his mojo big time after the sale of Brownhill. Unlike Kodjia, Kelly etc those two came about quite suddenly, late, with no replacement in place or time to line one up. 

So, yes, I’d agree the downturn came long before the suspension of play - although despite the poor performances we were still picking up points. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

If that’s the aim, just to score in matches then I’d say we are setting the bar a bit low. We should of course be aiming to score goals, that’s the whole point of the game, but you have to score more than you concede. We have to see out games better, play for the 96 minutes or so that matches are not switch off after the 85th and think the job is done.

Both times the opposition have kept going even though they were behind, surely the momentum *should* have been with us having the lead. The opposition should have been draining in confidence as the time ticked away, not looking stronger and stronger.

I was under the illusion that 

a) We would be so much fitter 

b) We brought in experience to manage games better 

so it’s no wonder people are disappointed that for two matches in succession against ‘ inferior ‘ opponents we’ve failed to win.

However it really is too  early to push the panic button. Players are learning to adapt to new coaches and teammates.

I don’t know how many new faces were in the teams for Blackpool or Forest Green Rovers but I doubt it is as many as us. 

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Allegedly we're trying to get to the Premier League. So were Brentford. In the process of working out how to do that, they got rid of Bentley. For a reason. Ditto Fulham and Kalas. Dasilva? Think we got the wrong brother there. James will be of use, in the short term, but will need someone to do his running as covering ground at pace ain't his thing. Ditto Martin. King is past his sell by date and made no impression on any of his last 3 clubs. Just because Weimann's played for some "big clubs" we've all heard of doesn't make him God's gift. Baker? He left in the summer, then came back with his tail between his legs when no-one else was interested. Wells? What amazing achievements have I missed? Massengo has much to learn. Nearly all of them are being paid eye watering amounts that we can't, in reality, afford. That would be OK if they were delivering scintillating football or even, you know, that pie in the sky promotion to the Premier League we're told is the aim. But they're not delivering. Bang average and vastly over paid sounds about right to me.    

(Championship) average I wouldn’t argue with at all. What I was arguing with was “pub team”. 

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

If he was truly so stupid as not to realise that signing dozens upon dozens of utterly useless players on decent money deals meant he'd have to lose his better players, then Johnson is even more of an idiot than I have him marked in my book.

Look at the number of signings and their impact on our balance sheet. Problem is we all remember the one or two decent players who sojourned shortly with us. Most struggle to name the detritus that came, dwelled (at grand expense for little effort,) and who are only now being offloaded.

As I’ve said in response to another poster, I’m not suggesting that we’ve signed dozens of outstanding players with promotion winning pedigree. The few we have are the ones we cashed in on very quickly.

I just think that terms like ‘pub team’ and ‘detritus’ are completely over the top. We still have players who are decent at this level. A good many of those we’ve moved on still play at this or similar level. 

The issue for the past two years or more, in my view, has been more about factors such as tactics, commitment, leadership, balance, strategy (and arguably injuries) than about the quality of the players per se.

[italian dave]

30 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I think I'm getting the same feel as the beginning of that season right now. As bad as SOD was and NP has been results wise so far, we really are getting no luck at all

I think there’s a lot in that, although there is also the saying that you make your own luck. And it has to be said that what happened in the 93rd min on Saturday and the 96th last night were very much us shootings ourselves in the foot, and things would look a little different this morning if those things had been different. 

[Super]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I think there’s a lot in that, although there is also the saying that you make your own luck. And it has to be said that what happened in the 93rd min on Saturday and the 96th last night were very much us shootings ourselves in the foot, and things would look a little different this morning if those things had been different. 

Problem is now letting in these late goals when we are holding on to a goal lead in the last 5-10 mins panic will set in on and off the pitch!

[glynriley]

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

1 win in the last 15 competitive games isn't very inspiring though mate..! 

Nor is 2 points from last 8 home games. 

You've heard me moaning about the transfer policy that SL allowed Ashton and Johnson to emabark on for the last 3 years.

Well here we are, back to square one.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, glynriley said:

First full season?

Aren't you confusing 'Cup semi final' with 'club record run of defeats'...?

My mistake. It was the 4th round on his first full season and semi-finals in his second. Remind me when we lost to a L2 club in his 4 years?

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Remind what percentage of liability is incurred in acquiring a player?

Johnson took losses from under £6m per annum to over £30.

Unlike the other managers you reference, most have actually achieved something via their spending. Johnson didn't.

You can't compare the costs of football now with days gone by. Football transfer fee and wage inflation is insane. 

I actually didn't reference any other managers in my post, but one thing you can say for Johnson was at the end of the season we were in the top half. 

I supported getting rid of Lee. It was clear we wouldn't progress under him. 

I'm not sure it is clear we will progress under Pearson either. Regression is what we've seen so far. The ownership and board is a major problem. 

Pearson still has time to turn things around. However one thing I'm not doing is blaming an embarrassing cup exit on the manager who departed 13 months ago. 

[glynriley]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

My mistake. It was the 4th round on his first full season and semi-finals in his second. Remind me when we lost to a L2 club in his 4 years?

 

Don't recall that happening TBH - all hail Lee Johnson.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

 

I don’t know how many new faces were in the teams for Blackpool or Forest Green Rovers but I doubt it is as many as us. 

 

Blackpool brought in 8 new faces this summer - including the striker who scored their goal against us.

[RedM]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

I was under the illusion that 

a) We would be so much fitter 

b) We brought in experience to manage games better 

so it’s no wonder people are disappointed that for two matches in succession against ‘ inferior ‘ opponents we’ve failed to win.

However it really is too  early to push the panic button. Players are learning to adapt to new coaches and teammates.

I don’t know how many new faces were in the teams for Blackpool or Forest Green Rovers but I doubt it is as many as us. 

I’m certainly not panicking yet, but I was disappointed by the showing of the more senior Pro’s last evening, maybe not senior in age but certainly in experience. I thought our youngsters had much more about them. Maybe they are more used to playing with eachother? 

Obviously it’s still early days, when we go back to our more ‘normal’ team on Saturday we might have a better idea. I much rather watch players like Alex Scott etc than some of them yesterday who clearly either didn’t want to be here or were miles away from being included in the first team. If they were putting on a ‘shop window buy me’ performance it can’t have attracted much interest.

[The Original OTIB]

4 minutes ago, RedM said:

I’m certainly not panicking yet, but I was disappointed by the showing of the more senior Pro’s last evening, maybe not senior in age but certainly in experience. I thought our youngsters had much more about them. Maybe they are more used to playing with eachother? 

Obviously it’s still early days, when we go back to our more ‘normal’ team on Saturday we might have a better idea. I much rather watch players like Alex Scott etc than some of them yesterday who clearly either didn’t want to be here or were miles away from being included in the first team. If they were putting on a ‘shop window buy me’ performance it can’t have attracted much interest.

Did we pay a fee for Nagy? I can't recall. He's got one year left on his contract. If there was no fee, then perhaps let him go to get him of the wage bill.

[RedM]

26 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Did we pay a fee for Nagy? I can't recall. He's got one year left on his contract. If there was no fee, then perhaps let him go to get him of the wage bill.

I can’t remember either, probably undisclosed but thought it was upwards of £2m? Not a huge amount in the scheme of things but as you say it might be all about the wages.

[Red-Robbo]

26 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Did we pay a fee for Nagy? I can't recall. He's got one year left on his contract. If there was no fee, then perhaps let him go to get him of the wage bill.

 

Adam Nagy costs us £1.8m which doesn't seem a great return. But to put it in context, Joe Williams cost £1.3m and Taylor Moore £1.5m.

[The Original OTIB]

6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Adam Nagy costs us £1.8m which doesn't seem a great return. But to put it in context, Joe Williams cost £1.3m and Taylor Moore £1.5m.

Now I think about it, surely it was an undisclosed fee. Are you getting your figure from the current value at Transfermarkt? 

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Now I think about it, surely it was an undisclosed fee. Are you getting your figure from the current value at Transfermarkt? 

 I think that was the figure bandied around in the Italian press. However factual it is, he cost us a fee and it will have been over a million.

[Ziderarmy]

14 hours ago, Northern Red said:

I'm fairly certain we conceded an equaliser right at the end of that one too?

We do most games don’t we? 

[BTRFTG]

48 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

But to put it in context, Joe Williams cost £1.3m and Taylor Moore £1.5m.

If we are to quote figures we should do so against a player's overall liability. In addition to transfer fee, Williams will be subject to signing-on incentives and bonuses, transaction fees and, of course, his salary, which at £600k pa for 4 years is £2.4m. So in the real world Williams will cost City somewhere in the region of £4.0m - £4.5m for his services. No wonder City are in so much trouble.

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Other than the crock Keogh I wouldn't recognise any of them were they stood on my toe. Saturday Blackpool were poor, but our equals. They created better chances than us. Their wage bill is magnitudes lower than ours. That's the true reason players tarry at AG, they're not very good and significantly overpaid. Other clubs fall for than less frequently than us.

 

Out of interest, how do you evaluate that?

Which chances do you recall in your opinion being better than ours?

[REDOXO]

5 hours ago, italian dave said:

Sure, all fair comment, and as I said my original comment was simply about the suggestion that NP has no money unless he sells being “diametrically opposite” to LJs position. I’m not trying to argue that both are in precisely the same position, just not diametrically opposite.

Tomlin of course was a success initially, and it was enormous fan pressure as much as anything that engineered a contract - what do we know, eh?!

I guess neither of us will ever know exactly what happens behind the scenes: I just got the impression that Johnson lost a bit of confidence in the direction of the club after the sale of Webster (I’m sure I can remember a few hints in comments he made) and lost his mojo big time after the sale of Brownhill. Unlike Kodjia, Kelly etc those two came about quite suddenly, late, with no replacement in place or time to line one up. 

So, yes, I’d agree the downturn came long before the suspension of play - although despite the poor performances we were still picking up points. 

We agree mostly.
 

Tomlin was difficult bloke for LJ to handle. Did you ever here the podcast where Wilbo stated that he went to see LJ over Tomlin. 
 

Others have handled Tomlin Wilbo more than implies he took the piss out of LJ and completely lost respect for him and the club.  
 

As far as Webster was concerned there was no way the club can keep a player who is subject to a 20m Prem bid. It’s about how you fill those boots. 
 

My personal opinion is that Pearson will sort this but last night was a blow due to the fact we don’t have a competitive outlet for a biggish even still squad. 

[REDOXO]

7 hours ago, Top Robin said:

It doesn't matter about the detail of the second goal Red.

The fact is that a Championship side could not beat a Div 2 team.

If it doesn’t matter about details (facts related to goals) of goals then players obviously don’t have to take any responsibility for their actions on the field…..and thus it’s all Pearson’s fault. 

:laugh:!