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Is it time to admit the kids are not good enough


Better Red

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2 hours ago, richwwtk said:

The thing is @Better Red, your own list seems to suggest maybe 20% of the academy players coming through are good enough for our first team. That's a pretty darn good conversion ratio to my mind.

When you then add in a good 60-70% of the players that don't become regulars for us will have solid careers elsewhere, probably with sell-on clauses etc. then it seems like a very good investment for the club indeed.

I agree - Predicting academy players won't make it and acting like that makes you some clever judge of talent is the most brainless thing to do, because guess what... realistically most academy players won't make it with us. If you just blindly say no to them all, you'll get 70%+ right.

The skill is obviously in spotting the ones who will, and the people who can do that consistently are highly sought after.

That's also what that poster totally failed to do. If anything his post highlights his lack of knowledge, and the fact he's then holding it up as something impressive ironically makes it even more obvious!

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3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I agree - Predicting academy players won't make it and acting like that makes you some clever judge of talent is the most brainless thing to do, because guess what... realistically most academy players won't make it with us. If you just blindly say no to them all, you'll get 70%+ right.

The skill is obviously in spotting the ones who will, and the people who can do that consistently are highly sought after.

That's also what that poster totally failed to do. If anything his post highlights his lack of knowledge, and the fact he's then holding it up as something impressive ironically makes it even more obvious!

Isn't it something like 99% of academy players in this country don't make it to pro,

So to have a 20 to 30% bracket is absolutely amazing work from our academy 

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12 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Indeed, our academy has produced masses of first teamers for us and elsewhere in recent times. 

It's actually the one thing we are now very, very good at. 

I'm agog that people still take the old Ashtonyate (RIP) attitude that it isnt working when we must have somewhere around 40 odd players, maybe higher either playing for us or elsewhere in recent times. 

Nuts to suggest otherwise. 

That's the thing, and what people don't understand or refuse to understand about youth development,

When we started investing big time around 14/15 I think, the following season people were crying that it was a waste of money and should be scrapped,

What we are seeing today is the outcome of that investment

Since then and in recent years that investment has increased as have the inferstructure and coaching

We will seen the benefit of that in around 3 or 4 years time,

The other thing about the academy people refuse to take into account is its not just about football development, its about real life skills and helping these youngsters find a life outside if football, which is just as important as producing good young players for me

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The first vhs tape my bruv rented from the video shop on Gilda parade when we got our first video recorder.

What was it called?  Bernco was back of Asda, so it wasn’t that!

I used to go there… can’t remember its name.  A few doors along from what would have been Norman Hunter’s sport shop - or was it a shoe shop? I reckon that had gone by the time videos were a thing. Or am I completely confused (not for the first time)?? 

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38 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

I used to go there… can’t remember its name.  A few doors along from what would have been Norman Hunter’s sport shop - or was it a shoe shop? I reckon that had gone by the time videos were a thing. Or am I completely confused (not for the first time)?? 

Norman Hunter's shop would have overlapped with the early video stores for sure. Not sure when his shop opened but presuming it was after his retirement in the early eighties? Video shops started to spring up around 1979-1980ish

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2 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I agree - Predicting academy players won't make it and acting like that makes you some clever judge of talent is the most brainless thing to do, because guess what... realistically most academy players won't make it with us. If you just blindly say no to them all, you'll get 70%+ right.

The skill is obviously in spotting the ones who will, and the people who can do that consistently are highly sought after.

That's also what that poster totally failed to do. If anything his post highlights his lack of knowledge, and the fact he's then holding it up as something impressive ironically makes it even more obvious!

Plus, what defines "making it" really? An academy player that doesn't manage to make the first team with us, then has a consistent career at LG1 is still playing at a standard that your average footballer can only dream of!

Edited by redsince1994
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29 minutes ago, redsince1994 said:

Plus, what defines "making it" really? An academy player that doesn't manage to make the first team with us, then has a consistent career at LG1 is still playing at a standard that your average footballer can only dream of!

Under that example Joe Edwards never made it even though he's been a solid pro at league 1 level for years

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30 minutes ago, redsince1994 said:

Plus, what defines "making it" really? An academy player that doesn't manage to make the first team with us, then has a consistent career at LG1 is still playing at a standard that your average footballer can only dream of!

If any academy players was asked that question they’d undoubtedly say ‘becoming a City first team regular’

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3 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I agree - Predicting academy players won't make it and acting like that makes you some clever judge of talent is the most brainless thing to do, because guess what... realistically most academy players won't make it with us. If you just blindly say no to them all, you'll get 70%+ right.

The skill is obviously in spotting the ones who will, and the people who can do that consistently are highly sought after.

That's also what that poster totally failed to do. If anything his post highlights his lack of knowledge, and the fact he's then holding it up as something impressive ironically makes it even more obvious!

Yep, just playing the odds, rather than showing any real football nous.

3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Isn't it something like 99% of academy players in this country don't make it to pro,

So to have a 20 to 30% bracket is absolutely amazing work from our academy 

image.thumb.png.cd683f184e3b4b7ea1a04c26a69a7217.png

image.thumb.png.32f8edfe7e299a5d0feb9622a7d0cbf0.png

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-academy-players-figures-appearances-numbers-1387302

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On 14/08/2021 at 20:23, ProfitInMyPocket said:

It might be time to admit that a lot of the senior players in this squad aren't good enough.

Hmmm I wonder if a £38 million loss has anything to do with the fact we can't make stellar signings and have to make do with what we have.

Even if SL wanted to wedge open the vault, we would fall foul of FFP laws.

So we have to soldier on, get rid of deadwood where the cost is not too high and survive for better times.

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56 minutes ago, Better Red said:

What because I won’t judge a player until I have seen them play - Yeah Horse Shit…. 
 

 

No writing off 17 and 18 year old as not good enough,

All of your posts are horse shit and the reaction show that majority agree its horse shit

So yea its horse shit

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2 hours ago, Better Red said:

What because I won’t judge a player until I have seen them play - Yeah Horse Shit…. 
 

 

How many games do you give a player before you write them off?

You have basically wrote off kids after how many appearances exactly? When as rightfully has been pointed out to you the high majority will NOT make it anyway, therefore it doesn't make you right at all. You may as well have just named every single academy player and say "I was right on most of them", the maths will tell you that.

 

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3 hours ago, TheReds said:

How many games do you give a player before you write them off?

You have basically wrote off kids after how many appearances exactly? When as rightfully has been pointed out to you the high majority will NOT make it anyway, therefore it doesn't make you right at all. You may as well have just named every single academy player and say "I was right on most of them", the maths will tell you that.

 

When I watch them and they are not up to standard. 
 

If they are say so - Scott & Pring

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1 minute ago, Better Red said:

When I watch them and they are not up to standard. 
 

If they are say so - Scott & Pring

But how many games do you watch for each individual, or how many chances do you give them before you write them off?

Is it 1, 2, 5, 10 games? Do they all have to be Championship games? Do you watch development games? Cup games? Do lower league loans count towards your assessment? Do you take in what/who the opposition is? Is the team setup to the players advantage? What about the players around them at the time?

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1 hour ago, Better Red said:

Feel free to Jump back in and update 

Max from Wrong to Right….

Feel free to jump in and reply to my last post with an honest answer too.

By the way, Max was at fault, doubt anyone disagrees with that whatsoever, BUT you said, and I quote "O’Leary never will make the first team". 

So you are in fact wrong, no matter how you want to frame it, you can never, ever be right in this case.

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I wonder, having read through the replies and views since the original post, if Better Red could be nominated in the category of "Most ill informed and misguided view" - post.   But then again his post, decrying our awful academy and appalling young guns, and their     failure to produce any quality, has instigated four pages of debate and insight, which are interesting and amusing......so perhaps, although his viewpoint is miles off target, he should be thanked for sparking 4 pages of readable diversion?  Ha!!  PS.  Not only has Scotty scored a couple of goals, at the age of 18, he is probably worth a conservative £10 mill?

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Would much rather invest in our kids and players from the lower leagues with hunger to improve and also have potential to get better which could give us value for money than waste 10m or so on the likes of Palmer, Wells etc. 

Our best teams during my lifetime of supporting City have been made up of young or lower league players with potential with the odd old pro thrown in.

Worse teams have been the end of both of the Johnsons reigns where we had large squads of overpaid players who don’t care about being here. 

Big Money signings just don’t work for us and put us back years…

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2 hours ago, Red Army 79 said:

Would much rather invest in our kids and players from the lower leagues with hunger to improve and also have potential to get better which could give us value for money than waste 10m or so on the likes of Palmer, Wells etc. 

Our best teams during my lifetime of supporting City have been made up of young or lower league players with potential with the odd old pro thrown in.

Worse teams have been the end of both of the Johnsons reigns where we had large squads of overpaid players who don’t care about being here. 

Big Money signings just don’t work for us and put us back years…

Absolutely correct, I think our youngsters are brilliant, and are blending well into the squad, this has to be the way forward along with a few experienced players to assist them. TBH it seems we have a very good academy system, which we need to really embrace, along with a few players like Massengo signed through our scouting system. If we could get a few more like him that would be brilliant.

I do think big Nige is starting to gradually sort things out, the football has certainly improved, just need the results to start coming for us.

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