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Crosses and defending them....


spudski

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9 minutes ago, 22A said:

Watching the goals back on TV, for Boro's first we had Bentley and at least six defenders in the box, but the ball still found it's way across goal to the waiting striker.

Exactly...we seem to judge the flight of a ball really badly.

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27 minutes ago, 22A said:

Watching the goals back on TV, for Boro's first we had Bentley and at least six defenders in the box, but the ball still found it's way across goal to the waiting striker.

Only seen the goals quickly, but the 2nd one reminds me of the FGR equaliser. While we have players in decent areas, the striker is the one on the move. We don't anticipate , we react. That gives forwards a yard or two start. I don't think you can blame Bent's, he has to wait for the touch and see where it's going . The striker has ran past 2/3 defenders and has a head start on Bentley. I want to see defenders expecting the flick not reacting to it.

I think Kalas comes in for Reading, with maybe 1 or 2 others.

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4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Only seen the goals quickly, but the 2nd one reminds me of the FGR equaliser. While we have players in decent areas, the striker is the one on the move. We don't anticipate , we react. That gives forwards a yard or two start. I don't think you can blame Bent's, he has to wait for the touch and see where it's going . The striker has ran past 2/3 defenders and has a head start on Bentley. I want to see defenders expecting the flick not reacting to it.

I think Kalas comes in for Reading, with maybe 1 or 2 others.

Here you go, first time using some software.  Steep learning curve for an old’un like me.  Software is dead clever though.

Didn’t go the whole hog on the analysis, more a play using the software.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go, first time using some software.  Steep learning curve for an old’un like me.  Software is dead clever though.

Didn’t go the whole hog on the analysis, more a play using the software.

That’s really poor defending from Vyner - gets done by their player far too easily, giving him way too much space. 

Also it seems ridiculous that he was left one-on-one with their attacker. How many times do we see one of our attacking players with only one player to beat? Rarely. 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go, first time using some software.  Steep learning curve for an old’un like me.  Software is dead clever though.

Didn’t go the whole hog on the analysis, more a play using the software.

I feel a bit of sympathy with Vyner, he has played FB before but I think it's a bit of a steep learning curve at Championship level. Specially for someone who has played most of his best games more central. That said it is a basic error. At first I was going to criticise King, but I think he make the right choice.  DaSilve looks like he more involved in a wrestling match than going for the ball. 

Look forward to see you getting to grips with the new tech, internship at the g*s on the cards? ?

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There appear to be lots of things wrong with the goal.

Vyner (as above).

But where is Weimann?  I’m not sure what had happened before?

King is aware of McNair, but Baker and Atkinson aren’t marking anyone.  Ideally whoever is right side CB at that point (Baker) should be the one to block the ball slid across the 6 yard box, or even come across to make Jones’s cross impossible.  Either that or he instructs King to commit to getting nearer to Jones’s intended route, whilst he picks up McNair on the pull-back.

Atkinson is picking up Spence, whilst Dasilva has Ikpeazu.

Atkinson gets in a good saving challenge on Spence, but if anything it slows the pace of the ball and the angle and makes Ikpeazu favourite over Dasilva.

All told, a poor goal.  Not gonna defend it.

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47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There appear to be lots of things wrong with the goal.

Vyner (as above).

But where is Weimann?  I’m not sure what had happened before?

King is aware of McNair, but Baker and Atkinson aren’t marking anyone.  Ideally whoever is right side CB at that point (Baker) should be the one to block the ball slid across the 6 yard box, or even come across to make Jones’s cross impossible.  Either that or he instructs King to commit to getting nearer to Jones’s intended route, whilst he picks up McNair on the pull-back.

Atkinson is picking up Spence, whilst Dasilva has Ikpeazu.

Atkinson gets in a good saving challenge on Spence, but if anything it slows the pace of the ball and the angle and makes Ikpeazu favourite over Dasilva.

All told, a poor goal.  Not gonna defend it.

Think you can add Disilva to the list, just gets brushed aside by the man he is marking and scores

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12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go, first time using some software.  Steep learning curve for an old’un like me.  Software is dead clever though.

Didn’t go the whole hog on the analysis, more a play using the software.

Good work Dave, and just proved my eyes didn't deceive me.

We see this most games though.

Way too easy to get crosses into the box. 

I can't get my head around why any coach would think let the ball into the box and deal with it there. Chances of penalty or goal conceded. Just bust a gut stopping the crosses. Do as much as possible to stop them.

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12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go, first time using some software.  Steep learning curve for an old’un like me.  Software is dead clever though.

Didn’t go the whole hog on the analysis, more a play using the software.

Thanks for this Dave.

It was always going to be a concern that we didn't replace/upgrade our full backs in the summer, I've no doubt NP would love to do it; but finances dictate.

It's a worry that at all three games now, we have been targeted in the same way by the opposition; with them gaining success on each occasion. As other have said we either change formation to deal with this weakness, or change the personnel. After watching Simpson, so far; he is not the answer to the RB problem. I think NP is being a bit more measured in his approach now with the players, as it realises quite how few options we have. There's no point having a go at a player, and destroying his potentially fragile self confidence, when he's the best option you have at the moment.

Once again though, confidence; albeit so near the start of the season seems low in a number of players. Vyner's body language paints a thousand words, he knows he made a mistake.

At least one thing is for sure. We know exactly how Reading are going to target us tomorrow night. It's up to us as a unit to prepare for that. Difficult to see how we are going to improve in the short term.

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3 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Thanks for this Dave.

It was always going to be a concern that we didn't replace/upgrade our full backs in the summer, I've no doubt NP would love to do it; but finances dictate.

It's a worry that at all three games now, we have been targeted in the same way by the opposition; with them gaining success on each occasion. As other have said we either change formation to deal with this weakness, or change the personnel. After watching Simpson, so far; he is not the answer to the RB problem. I think NP is being a bit more measured in his approach now with the players, as it realises quite how few options we have. There's no point having a go at a player, and destroying his potentially fragile self confidence, when he's the best option you have at the moment.

Once again though, confidence; albeit so near the start of the season seems low in a number of players. Vyner's body language paints a thousand words, he knows he made a mistake.

At least one thing is for sure. We know exactly how Reading are going to target us tomorrow night. It's up to us as a unit to prepare for that. Difficult to see how we are going to improve in the short term.

Good post. ??????

image.thumb.jpeg.69b316c11f27cdf63f53621a3a22ea39.jpeg

If Reading set up similarly to this tomorrow, I expect far less diags being hit to our full-backs, so might be a different game.

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Theres several issues/ observations for me. A lot of work needs to be done on the training ground over the next few days 

1)whilst Bentley is a great shot stopper he does not command his box enough for me. This puts additional pressure on the defence dealing with crosses (before anyone says I still think he’s been our best player the last year). 

2) This season RB is our weak spot and teams are definitely targeting us this season. Personally I’d like to see us bring in Andre Wisdom experienced right back at this level, 28 a good age and would probably be relatively cheap given he was training with Derby to get a contract.  Finances permitting of course. Otherwise Fleming/ simpson as experienced right backs whom have played at the highest level should be giving Vyner some additional coaching.
 

3) most of the goals have been low crosses from the right.  I think playing Baker at right centre back wont help as a left footer he wont have the positioning (understandable as I doubt he’s played there before) or be as confident/ likely to hook the ball away with his right foot allowing the ball to come across the net. 

4) Weiman has offered little support to Vyner defensively often leaving him 1-1 if this area is being targeted the right winger needs to offer more protection to the right back.
 

 

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13 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I feel a bit of sympathy with Vyner, he has played FB before but I think it's a bit of a steep learning curve at Championship level. Specially for someone who has played most of his best games more central. That said it is a basic error. At first I was going to criticise King, but I think he make the right choice.  DaSilve looks like he more involved in a wrestling match than going for the ball. 

Look forward to see you getting to grips with the new tech, internship at the g*s on the cards? ?

Vyner played 40 or so games at RB for Rotherham at this level. It’s not like he’s a square peg in a round hole; he’s just a poor round peg in a round hole. Not good enough, and unlikely to improve much more IMO. One of the main reasons Olasunde or Nyambe should’ve been key targets this summer. 

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12 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Agree with this. Also DaSilva is being targeted, Blackpool were already sending crosses to the far post from their left, as he is not big enough to cope with most players. As Boro highlighted so painfully as well. 4 at the back is of course pretty straight forward, but only if the FB's are strong defenders, and neither of our options are good enough in this regard. Though not too sure about the back up options either. Simpson looks like his legs have gone . Also we cannot have Kalas on the bench when we are letting in soft goals. He is our best defender. If he is not sold, he must be starting at Reading. 

For me JD is not a left back, he's a left wing back.

That said, he's still living on the legacy of his loan season, in which he was of course superb for us.

I know he's had his injuries in the last two seasons, but the days of runs down the wing, breaking the line of defenders with a forward run after link up; and general energy levels seem a long time ago.

The modern day full backs are taller, and expected to offer as much offensively as defensively. Every team at the moment, seems to hit him with diagonals in the air, waiting to win the second ball. That compounded with having Palmer in front of him, does not engender a solid defensive foundation.

He is also unfortunately weak physically (no surprise, due to his size); and crosses from the Vyner's side will look to hit the back post, where unfortunately his size proves a limitation.

I also don't think he's particularly aggressive, and tenacious; often passive at times. Against Blackpool we had 3 left footers over there (JD, Atkinson; and Baker), and sometimes the turning circles of those players to get on the left foot were something I haven't seen since Tinnion's day.

There's a quality player there in JD. But whether injuries have taken their toll or not, I haven't seen the same player since he came back last season. Fingers crossed, it'll improve; but what he can't change of course is his physical limitations.

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11 minutes ago, tin said:

Vyner played 40 or so games at RB for Rotherham at this level. It’s not like he’s a square peg in a round hole; he’s just a poor round peg in a round hole. Not good enough, and unlikely to improve much more IMO. One of the main reasons Olasunde or Nyambe should’ve been key targets this summer. 

I meant more the chopping and changing positions, but you are right. 
I do feel for him though, not just finding his feet as CB, but looking outstanding. Moved to DMF due to others deficiencies and doing a great job. Then shuffled over to RB. He may find some form with games, I don't think it's his best position though. 
The problem was we didn't have funds for a quality RB, that's why we signed Simpson IMO.

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11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I meant more the chopping and changing positions, but you are right. 
I do feel for him though, not just finding his feet as CB, but looking outstanding. Moved to DMF due to others deficiencies and doing a great job. Then shuffled over to RB. He may find some form with games, I don't think it's his best position though. 
The problem was we didn't have funds for a quality RB, that's why we signed Simpson IMO.

IMO, don't think he's ever been outstanding for us in either position. He has all the physical attributes to be successful in either of those positions and despite moments of promise, he's far too inconsistent at this level. How many bigger clubs, or clubs at the same level as us, have been linked with a move for Vyner? Hardly any, and that tells me he wouldn't get into any other starting XI in the Championship or above. He's got a real vulnerability in the air that makes him a susceptible at CB, we're blessed with options in CM, and he struggling at RB. The common denominators are that he lacks desire and tactical awareness. 

I have no idea what sort of wage Simpson is on but I do wonder if the funds were there to bring him in, why couldn't they be used to go for someone like Olasunde? Mind you, he's playing in a Preston team that've lost two in two! 

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13 minutes ago, tin said:

IMO, don't think he's ever been outstanding for us in either position. He has all the physical attributes to be successful in either of those positions and despite moments of promise, he's far too inconsistent at this level. How many bigger clubs, or clubs at the same level as us, have been linked with a move for Vyner? Hardly any, and that tells me he wouldn't get into any other starting XI in the Championship or above. He's got a real vulnerability in the air that makes him a susceptible at CB, we're blessed with options in CM, and he struggling at RB. The common denominators are that he lacks desire and tactical awareness. 

I have no idea what sort of wage Simpson is on but I do wonder if the funds were there to bring him in, why couldn't they be used to go for someone like Olasunde? Mind you, he's playing in a Preston team that've lost two in two! 

Obviously I disagree about Vyner. I criticised his concentration early on, but then I thought he was brilliant. He did a great job when he moved into MF. Last year with all the disruption is hard to gauge , but just like Taylor Moore I thought he suffered from not having a position he could really learn.

The Simpson thing meant no transfer fee & I doubt he'd be on massive wages, although reasonable. He was also a known quantity to Pearson which I think he liked. I didn't want him to get renewed, but I understand why he was.

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1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Agree with this. Also DaSilva is being targeted, Blackpool were already sending crosses to the far post from their left, as he is not big enough to cope with most players. As Boro highlighted so painfully as well. 4 at the back is of course pretty straight forward, but only if the FB's are strong defenders, and neither of our options are good enough in this regard. Though not too sure about the back up options either. Simpson looks like his legs have gone . Also we cannot have Kalas on the bench when we are letting in soft goals. He is our best defender. If he is not sold, he must be starting at Reading. 

Assuming he’s not gone / going, then I’m sure Kalas will start.  The big question is will it be for Vyner (and also at expense of Simpson too) or for one of Atkinson or Baker.  I don’t see him going anything other than back 4.

24 minutes ago, tin said:

IMO, don't think he's ever been outstanding for us in either position. He has all the physical attributes to be successful in either of those positions and despite moments of promise, he's far too inconsistent at this level. How many bigger clubs, or clubs at the same level as us, have been linked with a move for Vyner? Hardly any, and that tells me he wouldn't get into any other starting XI in the Championship or above. He's got a real vulnerability in the air that makes him a susceptible at CB, we're blessed with options in CM, and he struggling at RB. The common denominators are that he lacks desire and tactical awareness. 

I have no idea what sort of wage Simpson is on but I do wonder if the funds were there to bring him in, why couldn't they be used to go for someone like Olasunde? Mind you, he's playing in a Preston team that've lost two in two! 

I don’t think he’s been outstanding either, but he’s definitely been more than competent, the odd error-prone game aside.

I do think he needs half a dozen games to adjust to RB.  Spacing between him and the RCB was a problem Saturday (there were others too).  There was an occasion where he was left 2v1 a bit before the goal too.  I think Baker and Atkinson were focussing on sorting out how they were gonna handle Ikpeazu, and forgot Vyner.  That’s not to excuse Vyner, he needs to realise that at 24 with 50+ Champ starts for us (and 30+ for Rotherham) he’s no longer a kid, and has to take more responsibility.  If that means rollicking his team mates so be it.

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I know I am in a minority of one but I think Simpson will come in at some stage and surprise a few on here who have written him off after a couple of games. He has little pace, I accept, but has vast experience at closing down the opposition winger and forcing them inside rather than getting crosses away.

It was laughable on here at the weekend people actually questioning the release of Hunt. Did no one see the constant space between him and the winger, allowing countless balls to be crossed into our box. Simpson will close this space and stop crosses coming in. Then again everyone else may be right about him.

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2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I know I am in a minority of one but I think Simpson will come in at some stage and surprise a few on here who have written him off after a couple of games. He has little pace, I accept, but has vast experience at closing down the opposition winger and forcing them inside rather than getting crosses away.

It was laughable on here at the weekend people actually questioning the release of Hunt. Did no one see the constant space between him and the winger, allowing countless balls to be crossed into our box. Simpson will close this space and stop crosses coming in. Then again everyone else may be right about him.

I’m not gonna write him off either.  He was perfectly fine at Coventry, even if we weren’t great as a team, and Forest he looked solid….we actually kept a clean sheet in that one too.  He’s not gonna be expansive, but he showed in that game that he can provide support to the attack.

1A958069-4611-4392-8AC1-E95CC4C23036.jpeg.f7f378d25526ff9ac11ac4355fffaa2c.jpeg

7A838568-8C0A-442B-9F46-35004162DD8E.jpeg.d040d76dc177aa1ab1dd68465299534f.jpeg

He may also tell Weimann where he needs to be!!!

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Does it highlight a lack of organisation and/or tactical flaw? 

I gather our squad isn't great and Vyner has to do better for the first goal but the second goal is another goal from a set piece which we seem to concede an awful lot from. 

Surely set pieces come down purely to organisation and working on them on the training ground? It's not like we are a small side. 

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Finally got around to watching Quest.

6EEE5F1B-D994-4FCB-A467-6FF2FAA6D483.thumb.jpeg.2d26f7580ca390a27e3898810106ed26.jpeg

This was the earlier incident with Vyner.

Long kick from Lumley from edge of box. Vyner on Crooks, Jones unmarked alongside him.

Alex Scott and Matty Jane’s trying to get back.

But Atkinson and Baker aren’t anywhere near, they can both be shifted 10 yards more towards Vyner.

Weimann had gone central in, so had temporarily swapped with Scott.

I want to give Boro some credit, because they started hitting Ikpeazu on top of Dasilva, until Baker abd Atkinson swapped, so they hit Crooks instead.

Vyner left woefully exposed by that.  His real fault here is allowing it to happen, unless he is shouting at Atkinson to support….which I doubt.  Crooks is a handful at the best of times….let alone when he can flick on to an unmarked player.

As a defence they need to get structured much quicker in future.  This wasn’t a counter attack where shit happens, but a keeper kick.  Too many not marking.

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Finally got around to watching Quest.

6EEE5F1B-D994-4FCB-A467-6FF2FAA6D483.thumb.jpeg.2d26f7580ca390a27e3898810106ed26.jpeg

This was the earlier incident with Vyner.

Long kick from Lumley from edge of box. Vyner on Crooks, Jones unmarked alongside him.

Alex Scott and Matty Jane’s trying to get back.

But Atkinson and Baker aren’t anywhere near, they can both be shifted 10 yards more towards Vyner.

Weimann had gone central in, so had temporarily swapped with Scott.

I want to give Boro some credit, because they started hitting Ikpeazu on top of Dasilva, until Baker abd Atkinson swapped, so they hit Crooks instead.

Vyner left woefully exposed by that.  His real fault here is allowing it to happen, unless he is shouting at Atkinson to support….which I doubt.  Crooks is a handful at the best of times….let alone when he can flick on to an unmarked player.

As a defence they need to get structured much quicker in future.  This wasn’t a counter attack where shit happens, but a keeper kick.  Too many not marking.

You've got five against four defenders there Dave. Wouldn't blame the defence looking at that...I'd blame the midfield who haven't tracked the runner on the Left wing. Vyner left exposed with two players on him because no one has tracked the runner wide. 

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Pretty naff defending by Vyner, but there does seem an ocean of space around him both for the Blackpool and Boro matches. That must make the attackers job easier at running at his man with easy options to drift in either on the left or right. 

Something that should have been sorted on the training ground over the Summer imo. 

Bit disappointing the results of this Summers activities on the training pitch at our glossy new ‘high’ performance centre. Thought we would be over-powering teams in the last quarter of matches due to our physical and mental strength - far from it. Then even if our players maybe ain’t the best, thought at least they would be well-drilled - clearly not.

Anyhows, early days. Onwards and upwards. 
 

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21 hours ago, Gol said:

Theres several issues/ observations for me. A lot of work needs to be done on the training ground over the next few days 

1)whilst Bentley is a great shot stopper he does not command his box enough for me. This puts additional pressure on the defence dealing with crosses (before anyone says I still think he’s been our best player the last year). 

2) This season RB is our weak spot and teams are definitely targeting us this season. Personally I’d like to see us bring in Andre Wisdom experienced right back at this level, 28 a good age and would probably be relatively cheap given he was training with Derby to get a contract.  Finances permitting of course. Otherwise Fleming/ simpson as experienced right backs whom have played at the highest level should be giving Vyner some additional coaching.
 

3) most of the goals have been low crosses from the right.  I think playing Baker at right centre back wont help as a left footer he wont have the positioning (understandable as I doubt he’s played there before) or be as confident/ likely to hook the ball away with his right foot allowing the ball to come across the net. 

4) Weiman has offered little support to Vyner defensively often leaving him 1-1 if this area is being targeted the right winger needs to offer more protection to the right back.
 

 

@Gol

Do you mean our right side? If your answer is no, I'm puzzled.

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45 minutes ago, spudski said:

You've got five against four defenders there Dave. Wouldn't blame the defence looking at that...I'd blame the midfield who haven't tracked the runner on the Left wing. Vyner left exposed with two players on him because no one has tracked the runner wide. 

It’s 7 versus 4!!

Vyner, Atkinson, Baker, Dasilva, Scott, James and King

versus

Jones, Crooks, McNair and Ikpeazu

32 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Pretty naff defending by Vyner, but there does seem an ocean of space around him both for the Blackpool and Boro matches. That must make the attackers job easier at running at his man with easy options to drift in either on the left or right. 

Something that should have been sorted on the training ground over the Summer imo. 

Bit disappointing the results of this Summers activities on the training pitch at our glossy new ‘high’ performance centre. Thought we would be over-powering teams in the last quarter of matches due to our physical and mental strength - far from it. Then even if our players maybe ain’t the best, thought at least they would be well-drilled - clearly not.

Anyhows, early days. Onwards and upwards. 
 

I think it could be the fact that one of the two LCBs has to play right and hasn’t got his positioning and spacing sync’d yet.  Definitely training ground work to do.

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19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s 7 versus 4!!

Vyner, Atkinson, Baker, Dasilva, Scott, James and King

versus

Jones, Crooks, McNair and Ikpeazu

I think it could be the fact that one of the two LCBs has to play right and hasn’t got his positioning and spacing sync’d yet.  Definitely training ground work to do.

:laugh:...for some reason I thought one of our midfield was a boro player. That'll teach me to look before coffee ☕?

Either way...our right midfield haven't tracked the wide left player and left Vyner two to mark. 

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14 minutes ago, spudski said:

:laugh:...for some reason I thought one of our midfield was a boro player. That'll teach me to look before coffee ☕?

Either way...our right midfield haven't tracked the wide left player and left Vyner two to mark. 

It’s the cyan stripes of Totterdown on the black shirt causing RGB issues ???

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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Finally got around to watching Quest.

6EEE5F1B-D994-4FCB-A467-6FF2FAA6D483.thumb.jpeg.2d26f7580ca390a27e3898810106ed26.jpeg

This was the earlier incident with Vyner.

Long kick from Lumley from edge of box. Vyner on Crooks, Jones unmarked alongside him.

Alex Scott and Matty Jane’s trying to get back.

But Atkinson and Baker aren’t anywhere near, they can both be shifted 10 yards more towards Vyner.

Weimann had gone central in, so had temporarily swapped with Scott.

I want to give Boro some credit, because they started hitting Ikpeazu on top of Dasilva, until Baker abd Atkinson swapped, so they hit Crooks instead.

Vyner left woefully exposed by that.  His real fault here is allowing it to happen, unless he is shouting at Atkinson to support….which I doubt.  Crooks is a handful at the best of times….let alone when he can flick on to an unmarked player.

As a defence they need to get structured much quicker in future.  This wasn’t a counter attack where shit happens, but a keeper kick.  Too many not marking.

Looking at that pic, it’s shocking defending from City. So many gaps. And how was Vyner left exposed like that? And from a goal kick! Basic stuff. 

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