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Antione Semenyo


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45 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

You should have a look at the headed goal Ago scored at Trumpton in the 4-2 again & that was by no means unique, Junior was a very decent crosser of the ball, lightning quick & brave.

He was a really inconsistent finisher, but this myth that he couldn’t cross is nonsense.

He certainly had his moments, but my opinion of Junior was if only he had taken a split second before he did anything he would have been brilliant but he just did not have the football brain to go with his obvious skill.

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After 60 minutes of U23 action he comes into the maelstrom of a Championship match and people immediately air negative opinions about his ability, football brain and attitude.  We as supporters must be better than this. I reckon the lad is a huge talent and has the ability, once fully up to speed, to be a huge player for us. I hope he doesn’t read the stuff from his detractors and keeps working on his fitness and technique so that he can truly realize his immense potential.  

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Following brief appearances in previous campaigns, last season appeared to be his breakthrough one and he looked promising early on, especially V Northampton in the League Cup. One year  and 45  appearances on he still only " looks promising " .......unlike say legend Gerry Gow for example, who improved with every game he played as a teenager.

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Personally, I think the interest from the Prem has more to do with potential than current ability. He has the physique , he has pace , he has a powerful (if wayward) shot and when he has the ball under control he is very difficult to face when running with the ball.

I don't think he should have been near the bench last night. Looked lost first half for the U23s, very rusty. 2nd half better, but I thought he would get another run there before the first team. I think because we were missing COD he was put on the bench. 
He was poor positionally and his choices were poor too. Gave Simpson no help and his delivery was way off. I'd love to see the stats, he probably passed back to Kalas & Simpson more than he passed forward.
But as others have said, he's had about 60 minutes of football after surgery. I would like to see him given a chance at CF or in a 2 , but I can't see him getting that chance ATM. If someone came in now with £2m I'd jump at it. 

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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

You should have a look at the headed goal Ago scored at Trumpton in the 4-2 again & that was by no means unique, Junior was a very decent crosser of the ball, lightning quick & brave.

He was a really inconsistent finisher, but this myth that he couldn’t cross is nonsense.

Absolutely. Semenyo has a long way to go before he is as dangerous as JB. His crossing was erratic at times but his speed created many chances from nothing. Over 220 appearances for us and 23 goals from wide on the right. His joke reputation is very unjust.

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10 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

The bloke's not good enough ...

He wasn't up to this standard before the injury - he's not up to it now...nothings changed.

Calmer head,,,football brain - whatever way you wish to describe.

He just hasn't got it.

There are enough footballers that have improved that part of their game as they got older. Of course there are plenty that do not improve that part of their game.
 

The point? The point is he is still young enough and raw enough to persevere. He has the things you can’t teach with pace, power and ability to drive past players. So why the rush to give up on him? 

Look at Cam Pring. He is 2 years older than AS. The club persevered with him and at 23 has finally made his league debut. Think many would say he has been impressive. He has similar unteachable qualities as AS and it is starting to click for him at this level.
 

Part of it is how desperate we are in those wide areas that we have to rely on a 23 year old LB and a 21 year old being rushed back from knee surgery. Maybe in a perfect world neither CP nor AS are asked to be such major parts and they can develop with less scrutiny. We are not in that position though. There are going to be growing pains with these young players. None of them are finished products. None of them will develop at the same rate. Too early to definitively say AS isn’t up to it. 

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Semenyo is nearer 22 than 21.

This will be his 5th Season, newbie he ain't.

Last season, previously having struggled in lower leagues,  was his test as Championship material .

He played 44 times. He scored twice and whilst good effort in closing from him for his goals both were fluke blocks from failed keeper clearances, nothing to do with City creating goals. If you like the 'expected goals' stats he only managed just over 4 on that count.

"But he's not a striker, he's a provider..." In 44 games he had 4 assists, 'expected' was 3. 

He loses more challenges than he wins.

And whilst I'm sure he wasn't fit last night that doesn't explain his lack of touch and inability to cross the ball beyond the first defender. He had those traits before his injury.

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10 hours ago, BasSavage88 said:

He's really really not good enough for this level 

He really really is good enough for this level........which will be proven if the 21 year old is given time in what is really only his regular proper second season, his first legitimate playing season, last year must have hard for a 20/21 year old to deal with, playing in empty stadiums in a very poor football side?                     The ludicrous comparisons to Andy Cole and Tammy Abraham are nonsense, and gives an indication of some of the misguided insight and analysis on here .

Just back from an operation and with hardly any training time, it shows to me how important Nige thinks he is, to introduce him for a  half an hour match time  last night, to ease him back into the squad?.  If you look into his background, he has not come through the academy, but was talent spotted by Tinman playing for his college team at 17, so he has had a completely different trajectory to players who join the club at 9 or 10 and are initiated in tactics and systems as they come through the ranks.

A.S. has had a lot of catching up to do, but there is plenty of raw talent there, which has already been acknowledged  by the likes of Man U and Chelsea scouts, who know a lot more about ability than you or I ever will ?  Given time and support I am certain he will become a really valuable player.  So give the kid a break............why don't you? ?

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3 hours ago, tin said:

Or perhaps NP recognised we have a major shortage of wide players and pace within the squad, and knows he doesn’t have the funds to put it right. Semenyo, COD, and now Pring are our only wide options. KP and Scott aren’t naturals in these positions. 

I could understand bringing Semenyo on last night with the aim of stretching the game. While it’s unfair to judge him on last night after coming back from injury, he just doesn’t have it at this level IMO and I would cash in if a decent offer comes in. 

That is a different debate when it comes to cashing in. If that was on the table I’d consider it. Just think it is way too early in his career to say he won’t make it. Where was Bobby Reid at his age? Where was Kodjia? Look at the step Sterling took from 21 to 25. There are examples the other way I will concede that. Just something to keep in mind.
 

Sell him? maybe but I wouldn’t just flog him for a small chunk of cash now. Same as when there were some saying sell Reid for 300k. I know funds are tight but unless we can secure a minimum of 3-4m for Antoine it would be worth continuing his development here. If he kept his assists in the same area but notched 6-7 goals he’d be worth 5m minimum. The championship is a great platform level. It only takes one good season for a young player to be worth 8 figures. 

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10 hours ago, bris red said:

I said it on another thread he is the carbon copy of Junior Bent. So much pace and endeavour but the end product is so poor its unbelievable.. I think Nige will be forced to stick with him but he just doesn’t look like a natural footballer to me.. a great athlete but his footballing brain is western conference standard at best IMO.

You put it more elequently than me and I agree with every word.

The lad is an athlete sure, but a Championship level football player - absolutely not.

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8 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Semenyo is nearer 22 than 21.

This will be his 5th Season, newbie he ain't.

Last season, previously having struggled in lower leagues,  was his test as Championship material .

He played 44 times. He scored twice and whilst good effort in closing from him for his goals both were fluke blocks from failed keeper clearances, nothing to do with City creating goals. If you like the 'expected goals' stats he only managed just over 4 on that count.

"But he's not a striker, he's a provider..." In 44 games he had 4 assists, 'expected' was 3. 

He loses more challenges than he wins.

And whilst I'm sure he wasn't fit last night that doesn't explain his lack of touch and inability to cross the ball beyond the first defender. He had those traits before his injury.

You have to remember he wasn't academy trained so won't be as refined as other young players.

He's clearly got a lot of talent & natural athleticism and it's the other part of his game they think will arrive. When it does, he will be a real force. 

We've had a fair few players like him - obvious talent but just waiting for something to click. Bobby Reid and Yannick Bolasie for example. Reid was 24 before he showed what he can do, and Bolasie was older than Semenyo before he moved to Palace and it clicked for him there. 

Young players like him need time and patience to allow them to develop. This desire to almost write players off when they're 22 and without academy grounding is very unfair. We've seen time and time again that players develop at different rates. 

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4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You have to remember he wasn't academy trained so won't be as refined as other young players.

He's clearly got a lot of talent & natural athleticism and it's the other part of his game they think will arrive. When it does, he will be a real force. 

We've had a fair few players like him - obvious talent but just waiting for something to click. Bobby Reid and Yannick Bolasie for example. Reid was 24 before he showed what he can do, and Bolasie was older than Semenyo before he moved to Palace and it clicked for him there. 

Young players like him need time and patience to allow them to develop. This desire to almost write players off when they're 22 and without academy grounding is very unfair. We've seen time and time again that players develop at different rates. 

Dont want to be a dick, and i like semenyo, but how much does that lack of academy training still affect him after playing in the football league for the last 3/4 years?

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I think Semenyo quite simply has a lot of tools that COULD create a good modern day player. He lacks composure & football intelligence in some parts of his game. I’m not his biggest fan, he doesn’t look like a natural, but I’m happy to give him some time to develop. I think to keep reverting back to a lack of professional development is getting a bit long in the tooth at this point, he’s had 3 years in & around the first team/ league football. For me he needs to learn to breathe when on the ball, I’m not sure he knows what he’s going to do, let alone his teammates. I remember seeing Traore ( Wolves ) & thinking the same a few seasons ago, but now he’s apparently worth millions, so it shows he could develop. Our very own Scotty Murray was similar in some ways to start with, his consistency came with age. He’s not a natural like Alex Scott, but he is a bit of a physical machine, which seems to be what a lot of footballers are today. Quite simply, he needs to develop his flaws this season & if he can, he could be a real asset. COYR 

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Just now, Simon bristol said:

Dont want to be a dick, and i like semenyo, but how much does that lack of academy training still affect him after playing in the football league for the last 3/4 years?

Not being a dick, it's a valid point.

At academy level players get certain fundamentals absolutely drilled into them from a young age. Sometimes this can make them a bit timid or robotic as they're so used to cautious patterns of play and positioning. 

I know that during Reid and Bryan's time in the academy - much of their work was about positioning and games of 2 touch. They'd spend the first 30 mins of each session practicing keepie ups'. The idea of that is to breed disciplined and tactically aware players with good first touch.

You can see that in both of their games. The academy has moved on since then, for the better, but academy players will still usually be very disciplined and risk averse. Semenyo hasn't had that and you can see in his style of play he hasn't quite got the same grasp on fundamental skills on and off the ball. 

The flipside is he has a bit more individuality to his game that hasn't been coached out of him throughout his teens. I think he will have a good season this year though provided he plays. Just needs time and patience. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Simon79 said:

I think Semenyo quite simply has a lot of tools that COULD create a good modern day player. He lacks composure & football intelligence in some parts of his game. I’m not his biggest fan, he doesn’t look like a natural, but I’m happy to give him some time to develop. I think to keep reverting back to a lack of professional development is getting a bit long in the tooth at this point, he’s had 3 years in & around the first team/ league football. For me he needs to learn to breathe when on the ball, I’m not sure he knows what he’s going to do, let alone his teammates. I remember seeing Traore ( Wolves ) & thinking the same a few seasons ago, but now he’s apparently worth millions, so it shows he could develop. Our very own Scotty Murray was similar in some ways to start with, his consistency came with age. He’s not a natural like Scott, but he is a bit of a physical machine, which seems to be what a lot of footballers are today. Quite simply, he needs to develop his flaws this season & if he can, he could be a real asset. COYR 

When he did come on it took him a while to settle. I thought he played quite well. Is NP playing him though in the correct position ? On the right he seemed to be a bit like "what do I do next" but when he cut inside he did show some talent.

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1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

The kid has been injured for a fair while and yet some fans are very keen to jump on his performance and criticise him. 

Problem is people make a snap judgement (ie Semenyo is fast but can’t shoot) and then repeatedly look to have that view vindicated. A shame really. 

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The thing which makes Semenyo a very frustrating player is that people say he is strong and quick. 
 

I totally get he’s only had 60 mins of game time - and agree he’s strong, but quick isn’t something that game time gives you - he’s been training so is surely fit enough to run quickly.

My opinion is his feet aren’t quick enough to do any tricks to get past players, his speed from 0 - 10 yds seems lethargic at best, and that’s what you need to get past better defenders.

I sit in the Lansdown Lower and saw pretty much everything he tried last night, and the one thing that stood out was his inability to connect cleanly with his right foot - I don’t think he put any of his right footed crosses in the air and past their first defender - and his one and only really great chance on his left foot was 7/10 at best - the target should have been far post not the near post!

If we are interested in a goal scoring striker (Silva??), and need to reduce our wage bill then let Semenyo go (with a good sell on clause), and Nagy and get someone in with real pace and shooting ability.

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8 minutes ago, City oz said:

When he did come on it took him a while to settle. I thought he played quite well. Is NP playing him though in the correct position ? On the right he seemed to be a bit like "what do I do next" but when he cut inside he did show some talent.

I agree that he wasn’t as bad as some are saying. He brings an energy & spark that we were possibly missing. But for me last night summed him up from what I’ve seen of him before. It’s all so close & nearly with him, ultimately it’s all about end product. Unfortunately I think City have a few too many players of that ilk. I don’t think the position he plays will change that too be honest, although I think if he can add composure & develop his technique  to his game, he could play centrally as well as wide. COYR 

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29 minutes ago, maxjak said:

He really really is good enough for this level........which will be proven if the 21 year old is given time in what is really only his regular proper second season, his first legitimate playing season, last year must have hard for a 20/21 year old to deal with, playing in empty stadiums in a very poor football side?                     The ludicrous comparisons to Andy Cole and Tammy Abraham are nonsense, and gives an indication of some of the misguided insight and analysis on here .

Just back from an operation and with hardly any training time, it shows to me how important Nige thinks he is, to introduce him for a  half an hour match time  last night, to ease him back into the squad?.  If you look into his background, he has not come through the academy, but was talent spotted by Tinman playing for his college team at 17, so he has had a completely different trajectory to players who join the club at 9 or 10 and are initiated in tactics and systems as they come through the ranks.

A.S. has had a lot of catching up to do, but there is plenty of raw talent there, which has already been acknowledged  by the likes of Man U and Chelsea scouts, who know a lot more about ability than you or I ever will ?  Given time and support I am certain he will become a really valuable player.  So give the kid a break............why don't you? ?

Being scouted by Man U/Chelsea isnt what it was. They hoover up any type of shit and then dump 99% of it back into the system never to be seen again.

How long do we wait for him to become ready? 

He has played nearly 3000 championship minutes with 2 goals and 5 assists to his name which is a ******* pathetic return ( 1 goal every 1500 minutes, 1 assist every 600 minutes)

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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know he's a "forward" player but why define your reason by resorting to goals / games, especially when the vast majority are playing wide.  why not introduce assists if you're going to be so 1s and 0s?  why not look at starts and subs, or minutes too?

So ignoring those stats please explain why in your opinion the reality is that "he's not good enough".

With respect Dave, you don’t have to get your stats and spreadsheets out to know that he’s average at this level.

Be interested to know if you’ve played the game at any level or coached/managed? 

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21 minutes ago, City oz said:

When he did come on it took him a while to settle. I thought he played quite well. Is NP playing him though in the correct position ? On the right he seemed to be a bit like "what do I do next" but when he cut inside he did show some talent.

Wasn't he better when he played on the left?

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21 minutes ago, Midred said:

Wasn't he better when he played on the left?

If he intends to cross the ball then he must play on the left - as it appears he is more left footed than right.  If he plans on coming inside and shooting/crossing from the top of the box then keep him on the right.

To be honest - I don’t think he knows what he’s trying to do.

As I’ve said earlier - he doesn’t seem to have the raw speed over 10yds or the nimble feet to make a bit of space for himself to create chances to cross or shoot.

Needs to be sold - or loaned out for a season ….

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42 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You have to remember he wasn't academy trained so won't be as refined as other young players.

He's clearly got a lot of talent & natural athleticism and it's the other part of his game they think will arrive. When it does, he will be a real force. 

We've had a fair few players like him - obvious talent but just waiting for something to click. Bobby Reid and Yannick Bolasie for example. Reid was 24 before he showed what he can do, and Bolasie was older than Semenyo before he moved to Palace and it clicked for him there. 

Young players like him need time and patience to allow them to develop. This desire to almost write players off when they're 22 and without academy grounding is very unfair. We've seen time and time again that players develop at different rates. 

So Academy players who never make it are said to have lacked match exposure. Semenyo may not have had academy time but he sure as hell had loads of match exposure at lower levels playing in competitive fixtures, not so one might deduce from his performances or career stats. 

Some of the excuses being made for him, his game declined due to the lack of crowds around last year, really?

I'd argue some of us thought Reid had touch, talent and awareness (AS A MIDFIELDER) from the moment he made his debut and questioned why the hell he was sidelined and shipped out without being given a chance, City's 'One For The Future' folly? That he bizarrely hit the heights whilst striking lucky for a few months upfront is another tale. But let's not forget he and Bryan are upper Championship talent, where we wish to be, nothing better. Do where does that leave Semenyo in the Premier interest stakes?

Bolasie was utter rubbish with us. Came as a joker, left as nothing more. Our coaches did nothing to develop him. His successful career owes everything to John Salako who, for those of us who saw him single-handedly destroy us for Swansea, knew a thing or two about wing play and apparently more as to how to coach it. Had Bolasie not gone to Palace he'd be playing non-league today. 

As for players developing at different rates? You could count the players who've left City's development and gone on to build top-flight careers on the fingers of one hand. Those that have were all showing signs of promise well before age 22. On the other hand we've had hundreds of kids who were the 'next big thing', in whom we invested time and money and who proved not to be up to much. Semenyo's firmly in that category. I'd love to be proven wrong. I won't be.

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15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

So Academy players who never make it are said to have lacked match exposure. Semenyo may not have had academy time but he sure as hell had loads of match exposure at lower levels playing in competitive fixtures, not so one might deduce from his performances or career stats. 

Some of the excuses being made for him, his game declined due to the lack of crowds around last year, really?

I'm not sure if they're excuses really - just things to consider. 

15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I'd argue some of us thought Reid had touch, talent and awareness (AS A MIDFIELDER) from the moment he made his debut and questioned why the hell he was sidelined and shipped out without being given a chance, City's 'One For The Future' folly? That he bizarrely hit the heights whilst striking lucky for a few months upfront is another tale. But let's not forget he and Bryan are upper Championship talent, where we wish to be, nothing better. Do where does that leave Semenyo in the Premier interest stakes?

I'd argue both Bryan and Reid are upper Champ/lower Prem players. They could easily do a good job for lots of bottom end Prem clubs provided they were given starts.

Semenyo - it's unclear as of yet. Needs to be given time to develop.

15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Bolasie was utter rubbish with us. Came as a joker, left as nothing more. Our coaches did nothing to develop him. His successful career owes everything to John Salako who, for those of us who saw him single-handedly destroy us for Swansea, knew a thing or two about wing play and apparently more as to how to coach it. Had Bolasie not gone to Palace he'd be playing non-league today. 

The point about Bolasie is that he had raw attributes to succeed and did. He was older than Semenyo when he blossomed.

15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As for players developing at different rates? You could count the players who've left City's development and gone on to build top-flight careers on the fingers of one hand. Those that have were all showing signs of promise well before age 22. On the other hand we've had hundreds of kids who were the 'next big thing', in whom we invested time and money and who proved not to be up to much. Semenyo's firmly in that category. I'd love to be proven wrong. I won't be.

I think you could do with having a more positive and supportive mindset towards Semenyo. It sounds like you've firmly made up your mind and are framing everything in a way that suits your outlook. 

If you had to predict Semenyo's career trajectory, where do you see him playing in his career?

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What struck me last night was that when he came on the game changed.  Difficult to put my finger on it but he clearly has the potential to cause havoc if and when he can put it all together so to speak.  I'm interested to see if NP is able to help him do this as he will be a hell of a player if he can start to harness what he has.

Those writing him off as not good enough for this level either know little about the game or are far too quick to judge.  He's as likely to end up at Barnet as he is at Chelsea IMO.  Comparisons with Bolasie are apt.  He seems like a Palace kind of player.

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