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FFP or A Billionaire Chairman Who Doesn’t Want to Spend


Portis-red

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2 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

I think ffp is a bit of an excuse for SL to not splurge money on transfers. O be fair it seems easy to say 'just dip into your pockets just this once'...but then come january people will say the same again and so ok

Maybe someone can confirm but feels like we will have got more IN in transfer money than we have spent in the last 5 years. Kelly, webster, kodjia, brownhill, bryan, pack, reid all went for decent sums ...plus we had some sell on money for bolasie when he got his big money move to Everton.  Kalas, Dasilva, wells and deidhou were big outlays but cant think of many others. 

He runs the clubs in a very sensible and sustainable way and this should be applauded. 

In an inflationary market, most clubs started to show a positive in “net spend”….for years we never did.

The problem is if you just look at transfer fees then it’s a blinkered view.

I make no apologies for post this again….just look at the costs, the costs that grow quicker than the income.  Then throw in Covid.

5EBF4F19-0ADA-4494-9A74-DF2EA15B2F4E.thumb.jpeg.d4bbc80b722495bd7f5f4ae3a6afc08f.jpeg

The transfer profit (penultimate column) looks fantastic….unfortunately the important one is the one to the right of it.

20/21s accounts are probably gonna show a £30m loss!!!

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In an inflationary market, most clubs started to show a positive in “net spend”….for years we never did.

The problem is if you just look at transfer fees then it’s a blinkered view.

I make no apologies for post this again….just look at the costs, the costs that grow quicker than the income.  Then throw in Covid.

5EBF4F19-0ADA-4494-9A74-DF2EA15B2F4E.thumb.jpeg.d4bbc80b722495bd7f5f4ae3a6afc08f.jpeg

The transfer profit (penultimate column) looks fantastic….unfortunately the important one is the one to the right of it.

20/21s accounts are probably gonna show a £30m loss!!!

£30m is an extraordinary amount of money. Isn't it - or am i that poor?!

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29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In an inflationary market, most clubs started to show a positive in “net spend”….for years we never did.

The problem is if you just look at transfer fees then it’s a blinkered view.

I make no apologies for post this again….just look at the costs, the costs that grow quicker than the income.  Then throw in Covid.

5EBF4F19-0ADA-4494-9A74-DF2EA15B2F4E.thumb.jpeg.d4bbc80b722495bd7f5f4ae3a6afc08f.jpeg

The transfer profit (penultimate column) looks fantastic….unfortunately the important one is the one to the right of it.

20/21s accounts are probably gonna show a £30m loss!!!

I'll say again @Davefevs, we could do with a pinned thread with your above tables for the benefit of those who still don't get it and/or refuse to accept reality.

It's not as if you have to be an accountant to understand the P&L column or to work out that the latest accounts will show a massive loss.

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4 hours ago, bris red said:

FFP hasn’t been around forever and Lansdown has had plenty of years and transfers windowns to ‘’go for it’’ so to speak. January 2008 and the summer of 2008 were IMO the time to really throw some cash at it well before FFP was a thing but he didn’t. It is what it is but in my honest opinion the man has never truly wanted top flight football here.

January 2008 would have absolutely been the opportune time to throw £10-20m at it whatever. 100% if there was one.

That's not to say I agree that he doesn't want PL football, the infrastructure is very much there or on its way now but can he be a bit risk averse at times?

That's not to say I want us to run a real risk of Embargo and Deductions either obviously!

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As for FFP and the current situation, I believe the following:

*In theory we could this season make a bit of a push...but the caveat is promotion or bust. Not a sensible approach.

*What we do know is that Covid losses ie those attributable to Covid are excluded from the calcs for 2019/20 and 2020/21.

*Talking of those two seasons, they're averaged after adding and halving.

*The FFP threshold is £39m, but you add our usual allowables- talking Bristol City Holdings not FC- I expect these are around £5m a season therefore when looking at the Accounts, it's £18m in a year or £54m in a 3 year period. Further complicated by the Covid exclusions and averaging of course.

Quite why a couple of useful loans cost permitting of course wouldn't be possible this season isn't entirely clear- subject to ability and willingness to fund past and present shortfalls.

We also don't know if we have written down (Impaired) any Player Valuations in the 2020/21 Accounts and attributed them to Covid.

That reduces ongoing Amortisation costs and might be excluded from FFP (might also be challenged by the EFL). We'll know when the 2020/21 Accounts are out, EFL should know clubs positions somewhat sooner.

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5 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Some fans still don't get it though. On my way out of the ground I heard two different conversations, one moaning about the building of the HPC instead of buying a striker, the other stating it was because they had recruited so many players for basketball and womens football.

 

The number of imbeciles in general scares me.  Especially in the modern world where your right to an opinion on anything trumps any requirement for it to  be based on reality.

The halfwit blaming basketball and women's football being a primary example. 

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6 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

 

Sadly I'm now of the opinion, that the majority of supporters are completely blinkered when it comes to FFP. Or downright brickwall ignorant at minimum.

Wages are up 60-70% over four years.

Add to that amortisation. (I.e. think of the fees wasted on those who left on frees I've the last four months).

In terms of any investment we're completely hamstrung. A squad full of mediocrity that nobody wants while needing to sell to buy.

In short, unless someone comes in for one of ours, we're a bit buggered. End of story. Zip. Natta. Zero. Nothing. Until someones out that door.

6 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Some fans still don't get it though. On my way out of the ground I heard two different conversations, one moaning about the building of the HPC instead of buying a striker, the other stating it was because they had recruited so many players for basketball and womens football.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

January 2008 would have absolutely been the opportune time to throw £10-20m at it whatever. 100% if there was one.

That's not to say I agree that he doesn't want PL football, the infrastructure is very much there or on its way now but can he be a bit risk averse at times?

That's not to say I want us to run a real risk of Embargo and Deductions either obviously!

It certainly was. I’d argue the summer of 2008 was just as important aswell, coming off the back of a play off final defeat and a superb first season our stock was as high as its been in decades.

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4 hours ago, chinapig said:

I'll say again @Davefevs, we could do with a pinned thread with your above tables for the benefit of those who still don't get it and/or refuse to accept reality.

It's not as if you have to be an accountant to understand the P&L column or to work out that the latest accounts will show a massive loss.

And they will look a lot worse if we go down. And unfortunately if we do not solve the problem of goal scoring  then you would imagine we will be in the relegation mix.

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1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Sadly I'm now of the opinion, that the majority of supporters are completely blinkered when it comes to FFP. Or downright brickwall ignorant at minimum.

Wages are up 60-70% over four years.

Add to that amortisation. (I.e. think of the fees wasted on those who left on frees I've the last four months).

In terms of any investment we're completely hamstrung. A squad full of mediocrity that nobody wants while needing to sell to buy.

In short, unless someone comes in for one of ours, we're a bit buggered. End of story. Zip. Natta. Zero. Nothing. Until someones out that door.

 

Going to play Devil's Advocate a little just for a moment in this line- but is it possible that the EFL no longer intend to dock points for it? Reading merely seem to be getting punished with transfer restrictions as an example. No charges have yet followed despite them being in breach, as such maybe they've gone back to a system where they won't push for points deductions...which is oddly out of keeping with Birmingham especially, then Derby and Sheffield Wednesday!

I also query whether our squad is that bad but we certainly are light in some key positions and too many youth too soon coming through is a risk.

7 minutes ago, bris red said:

It certainly was. I’d argue the summer of 2008 was just as important aswell, coming off the back of a play off final defeat and a superb first season our stock was as high as its been in decades.

Good point, I wonder what happens if we go and roll the dice somewhat in that Summer- or if we could somehow go hypothetical combining two periods if we had Maynard in 2007/08 would we get over the line? Think Byfield was our top scorer with <10 that season!

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6 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

And they will look a lot worse if we go down. And unfortunately if we do not solve the problem of goal scoring  then you would imagine we will be in the relegation mix.

Rules are different in the League below, though it's unclear how clubs that move between the two divisions are treated.

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3 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

And they will look a lot worse if we go down. And unfortunately if we do not solve the problem of goal scoring  then you would imagine we will be in the relegation mix.

And if we breach FFP and get a points deduction - as we doubtless would not being WRDC - it would hardly help our cause.

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2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

And if we breach FFP and get a points deduction - as we doubtless would not being WRDC - it would hardly help our cause.

Like Reading? They don't even strike me as a favoured club...maybe the EFL no longer wish to push for deductions as their case surely fits one whereby the EFL should be pushing!

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Like Reading? They don't even strike me as a favoured club...maybe the EFL no longer wish to push for deductions as their case surely fits one whereby the EFL should be pushing!

I wonder if Derby and Reading get off with no, or trivial, punishment whether compliant clubs will say sod it, we'll ignore the rules too.

I reckon the continuation of FFP may be in the balance.

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3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I wonder if Derby and Reading get off with no, or trivial, punishment whether compliant clubs will say sod it, we'll ignore the rules too.

I reckon the continuation of FFP may be in the balance.

Could be the case...would be a logical answer though Derby fans love to moan and moan- you should read their forum and social media, they think they are massive victims a lot of them just incredible.

Dunno about you and it could only be online perception- but I find them to have a a particularly objectionable proportion of their fanbase? On certain issues anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno about you and it could only be online perception- but I find them to have a a particularly objectionable proportion of their fanbase? On certain issues anyway.

Entitlement, supported by a sycophantic media that thinks they deserve to be in the Premier League by right.

There was a piece in The Guardian the other day sucking up to poor little Wayne. All part of the propaganda strategy no doubt.

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6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Entitlement, supported by a sycophantic media that thinks they deserve to be in the Premier League by right.

There was a piece in The Guardian the other day sucking up to poor little Wayne. All part of the propaganda strategy no doubt.

There are sensible Derby fans out there who I have seen on Twitter, so it's by no means all but the whole "EFL on strings" and all that when Ground sold, Rooney signed via 32Red...certainly wasn't a small number I reckon!

Some who argue the Amortisation is a small technical breach when in fact neglecting to add that it means Accounts need restating from 2015/16 to 2017/18 and I guess maybe beyond too- strong sense of entitlement with a substantial minority there I think.

They seem the worst of the Clubs who have been pulled up over FFP though at our level, in terms of fan perception and arrogance- perhaps as a proportion too.

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One lesson of all this, I think, is that it reaffirms the need to hang onto NP for   a few seasons, whatever the results, while the position regularises post- Covid. Giving a young, inexperienced manager tens of millions to spend, with no appreciable success, then finding you have no money at all to give to the experienced, successful manager before you sack him is not a good look for the business purist.

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Like Reading? They don't even strike me as a favoured club...maybe the EFL no longer wish to push for deductions as their case surely fits one whereby the EFL should be pushing!

Depends who is on the EFL board….wasn’t the Reading guy on it?

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9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In an inflationary market, most clubs started to show a positive in “net spend”….for years we never did.

The problem is if you just look at transfer fees then it’s a blinkered view.

I make no apologies for post this again….just look at the costs, the costs that grow quicker than the income.  Then throw in Covid.

5EBF4F19-0ADA-4494-9A74-DF2EA15B2F4E.thumb.jpeg.d4bbc80b722495bd7f5f4ae3a6afc08f.jpeg

The transfer profit (penultimate column) looks fantastic….unfortunately the important one is the one to the right of it.

20/21s accounts are probably gonna show a £30m loss!!!

Sorry to be thick Dave....but why are there 2 sets of figures..........One for BCFC, what is the other one?  PS I don't understand that if a club has wheeled and dealed, and made a profit from their transfer dealings, why are they not allowed to use the surplus profit to re-invest in players?   PPS I am certain that I just don't get it ha!

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2 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Sorry to be thick dave....but why are there 2 sets of figures..........One for BCFC, what is the other one?

Top one is Bristol City Holdings, the company that BCFC and Ashton Gate Ltd report into.  FFP done at holding group level.

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13 hours ago, Hampshire reds said:

 To be fair to steve he gave johnson alot if money. he did waste so much. players signed and not played. But for us to be safe this season we do need a couple of quality signings. interesting week ahead.

 

His Achilles heel. Backing managers with that surname and then judging those that follow with harsher eyes and far less backing . Absolutely ridiculous.

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12 hours ago, bris red said:

FFP hasn’t been around forever and Lansdown has had plenty of years and transfers windowns to ‘’go for it’’ so to speak. January 2008 and the summer of 2008 were IMO the time to really throw some cash at it well before FFP was a thing but he didn’t. It is what it is but in my honest opinion the man has never truly wanted top flight football here.

Lansdown wasn't a billionaire in 2008

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Obviously the prudent and sensible thing to do is obey FFP.

Provided that adhering to that remit doesn't reflect negatively on Pearson and what he's able to achieve, I think it's reasonable for us to survive this season (riding out covid fallout) and go for it over the next 3 years.

The time SL probably should have gambled was in 08. Whilst Hull signed Fraizer Campbell we signed Dele Adebola. A good player in his own right, but nowhere near the quality we needed to get us over the line. We then stupidly gambled on the likes of David James when it was completely the wrong time to do so.

I think SL has learned his lesson now, and hopefully will back Pearson when the time is right. This season is clearly a transitional one.

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3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Obviously the prudent and sensible thing to do is obey FFP.

Provided that adhering to that remit doesn't reflect negatively on Pearson and what he's able to achieve, I think it's reasonable for us to survive this season (riding out covid fallout) and go for it over the next 3 years.

The time SL probably should have gambled was in 08. Whilst Hull signed Fraizer Campbell we signed Dele Adebola. A good player in his own right, but nowhere near the quality we needed to get us over the line. We then stupidly gambled on the likes of David James when it was completely the wrong time to do so.

I think SL has learned his lesson now, and hopefully will back Pearson when the time is right. This season is clearly a transitional one.

Stoke also added Shawcross and some others IIRC for decent cash, either loan to buy or just buy. Adebola was a decent addition, and Carle had technical ability but never really did it here- either way we probably needed more.

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18 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

The answer is FFP, but we wouldn’t be in such a hamstrung position if we didn’t spaff millions on crap signings (with little to no resale value) under the guidance of Ashton IMO.

Which all comes down to one person,and one person only taking their eye off the ball...big time.

He's the one what done it.

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