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"I’m not a believer in collecting players"


headhunter

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If people are going to credit the sale of the likes of Flint, Kodjia etc to Cotts, because they arrived under his tenure, then it's only fair to wait until the likes of Massengo, Kalas, Bentley etc are sold before comparing.

It's also very complicated when you consider players (Reid for example) who were 'fringe' players under the previous incumbent but evolved into top class players under the incoming manager. 

For example, if we'd sold Reid right at the end of Cotts's reign we would have been lucky to get £500k for him. We got £11m for him after LJ put him in the spotlight and yet that's credited to Cotts?? This is the same Cotts who was in the relegation zone in February, despite having all those wonderful signings at his disposal.....?

 

ooo I do love a good LJ debate ?

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1 minute ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Tomlin was sold on to Cardiff for what we spent and everyone wanted him after that loan so…hindsight is wonderful

:dunno:

If you want to talk Tomlin and hindsight I can only add the sight of Tomlin's hind is not so great.

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18 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

If people are going to credit the sale of the likes of Flint, Kodjia etc to Cotts, because they arrived under his tenure, then it's only fair to wait until the likes of Massengo, Kalas, Bentley etc are sold before comparing.

It's also very complicated when you consider players (Reid for example) who were 'fringe' players under the previous incumbent but evolved into top class players under the incoming manager. 

For example, if we'd sold Reid right at the end of Cotts's reign we would have been lucky to get £500k for him. We got £11m for him after LJ put him in the spotlight and yet that's credited to Cotts?? This is the same Cotts who was in the relegation zone in February, despite having all those wonderful signings at his disposal.....?

 

ooo I do love a good LJ debate ?

Don't think anyone credits Cotterill with the development and sale of Bobby Reid, do they?

You are of course correct, that if the players you mentioned above leave for big money, LJ / MA and SL will get credit from that. That's an IF at the moment though.

What is beyond dispute is the 3 wise men allowed the likes of Tin Platovic, Freddie Hinds, Gustav Engvall, Liam Walsh, Adelakun, Watkins etc, arrive for a fee, then leave for nowt having contributed the square root of **** all.

Not to mention the Fammy debacle.

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3 hours ago, headhunter said:

So said Nigel Pearson in yesterday's press briefing. How refreshing it was to hear that when you look at the clubs in the bag approach adopted by the Gruesome Twosome: Lee Johnson / Mark Ashton.

The list of players that most on OTIB would regard as no better than what we already had  is immense and I'm not going to construct it here but I have to question those who say Johnson was personally accepting of ALL who came through the door during his tenure when you look at how many of them he gave a run in the side to to show what they could do.

In Pearson I trust [even if we lose tomorrow and after 5 games have just 4 points!]

Yeah well said. If Ron Atkinson is anything to go by I’m happy to wait for the next window or the one after that to get another improvement on what we already have. 

Plus by sounding like he’s not signing anyone in this window, could be some sort of double bluff to shoe away the vultures that try to sell us journeymen for over inflated prices and wages. 

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4 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Don't hink anyone credits Cotterill with the devolpmet and sale of Bobby Reid, do they?

You are of course correct, that if the players you mentioned above leave for big money, LJ / MA and SL will get credit from that. That's an IF at the moment though.

What is beyond dispute is the 3 wise men allowed the likes of Tin Platovic, Freddie Hinds, Gustav Engvall, Liam Walsh, Adelakun, Watkins etc, arrive for a fee, then leave for nowt having contributed the square root of **** all.

Not to mention the Fammy debacle.

Was there a fee paid for Freddie Hinds ?

Came from Luton academy - compensation fee maybe ? 

Plavotic was a free transfer wasn't he ?

Not being picky, and stand to be corrected.

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9 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Don't think anyone credits Cotterill with the development and sale of Bobby Reid, do they?

You are of course correct, that if the players you mentioned above leave for big money, LJ / MA and SL will get credit from that. That's an IF at the moment though.

What is beyond dispute is the 3 wise men allowed the likes of Tin Platovic, Freddie Hinds, Gustav Engvall, Liam Walsh, Adelakun, Watkins etc, arrive for a fee, then leave for nowt having contributed the square root of **** all.

Not to mention the Fammy debacle.

There was wastage there’s no doubt, but amidst the wastage there were players which kept us knocking at the doors of the playoffs for successive seasons.  Ultimately that wasn’t good enough and LJ was asked to leave (I supported his sacking btw), but I don’t think his tenure was totally shocking. In fact, given the history of our club since the Alan Dicks days it was rather good in my book. 

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3 hours ago, 2015 said:

Gustav Engvall, Milan Djuric, Jens Hegeler, Niclas Eliasson, Famara Diedhiou, Hörður Magnússon just the few players that were sold or gone at a far less profit than what we got them in for. 

The successes that LJ got were Webster and Brownhill. The majority of his good players in 17/18 and 18/19 were from the Cotts era (Reid, Bryan, Pack, Smith, Flint, Fielding). 
He did a good job but he spent far more money than any other Manager we have had at this club. We should have at least got into the playoffs in 18/19, we didn't.

Reid and Bryan were academy products, not not 'Cotts era'

Flint and Pack were signed under SO'D, so not 'Cotts era'

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Wish he'd go out and collect either a right back or a striker?  I know it's a cliche to bring this up, but considering Nagy and Taylor Moore are off the wage bill ( £1 mill year?) added to the 14 or so who left in the summer, surely we have the wiggle room for   a loan player or two?  

It's been a pretty miserable Season or so for City fans to put up with, and it would great to get in a Striker or quality full back    to get supporters optimistic again IMHO ?

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5 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Wish he'd go out and collect either a right back or a striker?  I know it's a cliche to bring this up, but considering Nagy and Taylor Moore are off the wage bill ( £1 mill year?) added to the 14 or so who left in the summer, surely we have the wiggle room for   a loan player or two?  

It's been a pretty miserable Season or so for City fans to put up with, and it would great to get in a Striker or quality full back    to get supporters optimistic again IMHO ?

I think the issue is player availability - are there decent strikers and RBs out there (better than what we have now) that we can afford? Possibly not.

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12 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Reid and Bryan were academy products, not not 'Cotts era'

Flint and Pack were signed under SO'D, so not 'Cotts era'

I know that, but they were there prior to Johnson taking over... oh and Nathan Baker

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27 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I think the issue is player availability - are there decent strikers and RBs out there (better than what we have now) that we can afford? Possibly not.

 

I think Max is talking about loans in.  Given the wages freed, additions of exciting young players in these areas may not be impossible, even with fees involved. 

(Of course, experience shows that not all loanees work - and some seem to resent being sent here)

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

How on earth have you forgotten the amazing Tin Plavotic, Mr Fevs?

What a roaring success he was.

Who???? I hear you cry.

Exactly.

I made a cut off based on whether they got in the first team squad or we paid a fee.  I’ve no idea whether we paid a fee for Tin, so he didn’t make the cut.  Di Girolamo got included because we paid circa £100k for him.

I have a list somewhere of several others who joined, typically released by another club, who we then picked up for zip….Kodi Lyons-Foster anyone? Shabazz Omofe?

1 hour ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Exactly a very good point as well as regulars in the team still which we signed under LJ Bentley, Dasilva, Baker. We still have Palmer, Massengo, Bakinson all who could still leave for big money…

So if the profits overtake the losses in the end the figures go against the argument.

Or if these players break in to the teams and contribute to a promotion then again your figure sheet is incorrect. That’s not delusional to comprehend ?‍♂️
 

I think you let the fan boys leaving you flame emojis after every post get to your head. 

Again, you simplify the argument by looking purely at net spend.

As part of the football strategy, recruitment has an objective that says buy young and cheap, sell at a profit.  If you buy on that basis, you minimum expectation, even more so in an inflationary market is make a profit.

Going back to my earlier post, of the £22m transfer deficit (simplified) on LJ signed players, how much do we get for the list of his players still here? (All guesses, but I’ve probably been generous based on Nagy example)

Bentley, Massengo and Kalas £5m each

Wells £1m (because of his wage)

Baker £0 (never gonna go for a fee in future)

Weimann £0 (same as Baker)

O’Dowda £1m (wages high in today’s money will limit fee)

Palmer £1m (same as O’Dowda)

Moore £0 (same as Nagy)

Cundy £0 (OOC next summer)

Dasilva £2m

Bakinson £1m

So, about break even, against a strategy of buy to sell at profit.  If you want to base your evidence on the benefits of an inflationary market, you have to take the evidence of today’s market.  You always present a very one dimensional argument.  LJ / MA / SL rode the wave without thinking about how they’d paddle back out to catch the next one, or even how long it would be before lBig Wednesday” rolled in again ??‍♂️

1 hour ago, bcfc01 said:

 

 

Was there a fee paid for Freddie Hinds ?

Came from Luton academy - compensation fee maybe ? 

Plavotic was a free transfer wasn't he ?

Not being picky, and stand to be corrected.

Hinds - circa £150k….we bought him from them.  Same with Tyreeq. Both were under contract at Luton.

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Not sure it was about collecting players, but after some big successes in transfers, maybe LJ / MA got carried away. It became a bit of a scattergun approach, particularly for younger players, which in fairness may not be a bad gamble. Buy up some of the more promising younger players from lower leagues, typically for under £1million and hope 1 or 2 of them go on to initially enhance the 1st team to then be sold for profit, others will get loaned out to see if they progress or sold on / released, players treated as commodities to try and turn a profit on.

 

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1 hour ago, bcfc01 said:

 

 

Was there a fee paid for Freddie Hinds ?

Came from Luton academy - compensation fee maybe ? 

Plavotic was a free transfer wasn't he ?

Not being picky, and stand to be corrected.

Rumour was he & Bakinson were £500k each.

Whatever our views on Tyreeq, for a 22 year old midfielder with 30+ appearances at Championship level last season that doesn’t look too bad.

Hinds’ career has fallen off a cliff (who knows why?) but initially he looked a smart pick up.

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1 hour ago, SecretSam said:

Reid and Bryan were academy products, not not 'Cotts era'

Flint and Pack were signed under SO'D, so not 'Cotts era'

 

3 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

So, not "Cotts era", then.

 

4 hours ago, 2015 said:

Gustav Engvall, Milan Djuric, Jens Hegeler, Niclas Eliasson, Famara Diedhiou, Hörður Magnússon just the few players that were sold or gone at a far less profit than what we got them in for. 

The successes that LJ got were Webster and Brownhill. The majority of his good players in 17/18 and 18/19 were from the pre Johnson era (Reid, Bryan, Pack, Smith, Flint, Fielding). 
He did a good job but he spent far more money than any other Manager we have had at this club. We should have at least got into the playoffs in 18/19, we didn't.

That a bit better for you PedanticSam ?

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4 hours ago, SecretSam said:

I think the issue is player availability - are there decent strikers and RBs out there (better than what we have now) that we can afford? Possibly not.

I believe there will be a number of young Premiership players who will not be in their first team squads, or on the fringes, and then it is a matter of how good are scouts, analysts and networkers are?   I am certain players  are out there, and clubs would be looking to loan them out, and then it all depends on Niges motivation and contacts IMHO.

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I think we signed too many under LJ and MA, we also had far too big a churn but at the same time, there were a variety who a) Didn't get a proper chance b) Weren't played in a position or shape that would necessarily get the best and in turn see them help the team perform their best and c) There were a clutch with medium to long term injuries, which makes it harder to judge in some cases. LJ's man management wasn't always the best either...Moore and Magnússon to name 2.

However coach, improve- less "I want that one" more "I'll improve this one". Like NP is doing or aiming to do, big improvement.

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9 hours ago, 2015 said:

Gustav Engvall, Milan Djuric, Jens Hegeler, Niclas Eliasson, Famara Diedhiou, Hörður Magnússon just the few players that were sold or gone at a far less profit than what we got them in for. 

The successes that LJ got were Webster and Brownhill. The majority of his good players in 17/18 and 18/19 were from the Cotts era (Reid, Bryan, Pack, Smith, Flint, Fielding). 
He did a good job but he spent far more money than any other Manager we have had at this club. We should have at least got into the playoffs in 18/19, we didn't.

  1. Engvall- Agreed.
  2. Djuric- Think he was a useful squad asset if fit but injuries, dunno if he didn't settle fully either. Along with Hegeler and Taylor, they were signed in a bit of a rush in Jan 2017.
  3. Hegeler- Best in a 3 and injuries- the injuries didn't help him along with many others.
  4. Eliasson- Tough crowd! 2nd highest assist maker in the Championship in Season 2019/20 despite being in and out of side, you're also looking at Covid before and after. Think he had talent and wonder if say Brentford would have got more out of him as a wide attacker. Wouldn't have minded seeing him in a 4-3-3, Weimann wide right, Eliasson wide left Wells in the middle, maybe Paterson central...Weimann-Paterson-Eliasson-Wells.
  5. Diedhiou- Went on one year too long maybe, perhaps longer. Agreed record signing out for zero isn't good! Had a reasonable goal return and useful defensively at times, but at a cost to our fluidity. Good squad player and some acceptable goals but can we treat a record signing as a squad type player?? 
  6. Magnússon- I thought he had his uses, fact he went to CSKA and is a regular in a much-improved Iceland side compared to say 10 years ago shows this- could have been good in a back 3. Besides which thought we made our cash back on him? He was versatile as well.

Won't succeed with a 2 in CM or 2 and AM though e.g. 2 and Palmer, not at this level these days. Matty James put it quite well the other week. Or at least it may make it a lot less likely.

Hegeler, Walsh arguably a variety of others- Nagy you could argue, were less suited to the way LJ wanted to play, I believe it might work but up to a point.

Quote

Swansea have really dominated the ball in the last few games but you really come onto them tonight and played your game. Was it daunting to think you were going to have to come onto them and come out of your shell a little?

I don’t think so. We went to Reading and we had a bit of a different attack. The Championship, from what I remember when I was younger, could be 4-4-2 against 4-4-2 and it was whoever was the best 4-4-2 won the game.

I feel now there are more managers with different styles, there are more different systems going on and I think you have to be adaptable in this league. So tonight, we’ve gone on more of a higher press, a little bit more risk in terms of leaving a bit more space. But with Reading, we were a bit more mid-block and played on the break.

It shows variability in our squad and we can do whatever the managers wants us to do. That’s what you have to work on, day in, day out, on the training field.

 
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10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Well I for one appreciate this statement from NP. About time. 

 

For me, it’s pretty straightforward. We’ve got quite a lot of promising players within the club that I think it’s only right we use them when it’s right to use them. I’ve got no hesitation in using them because I think they’re able to perform but unfortunately for a lot of those lads last year who got opportunities when they normally wouldn’t do, they did okay but they were playing very much in a side that was struggling.They’ve all made positive strides throughout the summer and will continue to do so with us. Yes, we’ve put a couple of players out on loan and I think its right to do that but with two or three. In the past there’s been as many as double figures which I don’t really get, to be honest with you.

You’ve got to make decisions on players sometimes and that is, if they’re not good enough, move them on.

I fully accept that people have different opinions but I’m not just going to bring players in because people think we should have more players. I’m not interested in that really, I’m just trying to get the foundations right and make sure that our squad is here to stay. There will be short-term buys always and loans which fill gaps but the reality is that we’ve got to produce players and we’ve got to create a squad which has a bit of identity to it.

Pearson has had some very interesting interviews since being with us. These few paragraphs though are the main reason I’m right behind him. He has a plan . A proper plan , that will have its ups & downs but I’m really looking forward to watching it unfold 

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11 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this an exhaustive list of players that LJ bought and then sold at a profit:

Josh Brownhill

Adam Webster

You have to also give him credit for developing the young players who later went on to be sold for big money, Reid, Bryan and Kelly as well as the key players we still have like Weimann, Baker, Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, O'Dowda, Semenyo, Massengo

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2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

You have to also give him credit for developing the young players who later went on to be sold for big money, Reid, Bryan and Kelly as well as the key players we still have like Weimann, Baker, Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, O'Dowda, Semenyo, Massengo

You also have to be mindful that if you generally recruit players before they are at the top of their development curve, that some of the development might have happened quite naturally too.  Plus how did some players go backwards is always my challenge?

Ok, I’m being slightly facetious, but my view is that LJ was mixed in everything he did.  Good things and bad things in equal measure.  Not the messiah, nor a naughty boy either! ???

The frustrating thing is I don’t think he really bottled why some stuff worked and therefore how to re-use it.  Boom and bust under LJ.  Never really learned cause and effect.  Would’ve been better getting a proper football mentor than pissing about in the NHS, the SAS or hostage negotiator (unless it was him trying to deal with MA!!!). Didn’t need to be as clever as he wanted people to think he was.

Shame.  Likeable in many ways, arrogant pr1ck in others.

I guess it’s no wonder so many debates are focussed on him.  Easy to choose one side of it and make a case, and likewise the opposite too.

Still lives in our heads….bastard ???

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28 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

You have to also give him credit for developing the young players who later went on to be sold for big money, Reid, Bryan and Kelly as well as the key players we still have like Weimann, Baker, Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, O'Dowda, Semenyo, Massengo

Oh yeh, he gets some credit for some of those, but my response was to someone who’d earlier said we’d made a profit on every player he’d signed which is obviously bollocks. 

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I like the idea of giving the younger players their chance but it doesn't mean I have no wariness about it. If NP thinks it's worth pursuing, then have to back it.

Think the following are ready, ie 1st team and squad ready:

1 O'Leary- Backup

2 Vyner

3 Cundy is now 4th CB?

4 Pring

5 Bakinson

6 Massengo

7 Scott

8 Semenyo

Then you have Wiles-Richards, 3rd choice GK. Fair.

All are under 25 but I think all are appropriate for their current status/roles.

I've said it before however, how many of the below are ready at this time!

Next level down

1) Pearson

2) Morton

3) Towler

4) Bell

5) Conway

6) Britton

7) Janneh

Edwards already on loan of course.

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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I like the idea of giving the younger players their chance but it doesn't mean I have no wariness about it. If NP thinks it's worth pursuing, then have to back it.

Think the following are ready, ie 1st team and squad ready:

1 O'Leary- Backup

2 Vyner

3 Cundy is now 4th CB?

4 Pring

5 Bakinson

6 Massengo

7 Scott

8 Semenyo

Then you have Wiles-Richards, 3rd choice GK. Fair.

All are under 25 but I think all are appropriate for their current status/roles.

I've said it before however, how many of the below are ready at this time!

Next level down

1) Pearson

2) Morton

3) Towler

4) Bell

5) Conway

6) Britton

7) Janneh

Edwards already on loan of course.

Listening to Nige….I’d say Conway and Bell….he picked them out.

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