Jump to content
IGNORED

Reading going in with the Derby fun


1960maaan
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

Image

From Swiss Ramble at the end of last season. 123% apparently - see the centre of the image. Could be slightly less now though after letting so many go in the summer...maybe. 

Thanks Exiled. That's too high in itself, even with SL covering the losses. What other business can budget to spend more than their potential income? I can't think of any.

226% FFS! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Image

From Swiss Ramble at the end of last season. 123% apparently - see the centre of the image. You can see that's a pretty average figure as it ranked 13th in the division. Could be slightly less now though after letting so many go in the summer...maybe. We're likely to be over 100% regardless.

Been widely quoted that we reduced our wage bill by a third this summer.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We’d probably be a League 1/Championship yo yo club like Rotherham. The only question really is given what Steve has ploughed in SHOULD we be more than a fairly solid (hasn’t felt that way recently though!!) Championship club or should we have had at least one go in the Premiership by now?

Despite spending 13 of the last 15 seasons in the Championship I still don't think of us as a regular fixture! Probably because it took us so long to recover from relegation in 1999.

As for SL's investment it's hard not to think he feels a little hard done by, but you reap what you sow, and there's been some big mistake seeds planted since SL has been driving the tractor. The appointment of Pulis, Wilson (or more specifically "the drinking culture"), Tins, GJ being seemingly unable to recruit and manage players that might have got us to the next level post 2008, the spiralling costs then the cost cutting and inevitable disaster that followed him to the strangeness of not backing Cotterill followed up by backing Ashton.

We're rebuilding again now... just this time, we're doing it in the Championship (and picking up points, albeit not convincingly right now). That's progress of a sort!

27 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Because, like Boro, Barnsley, PNE, Millwall, Coventry, Peterborough, QPR (now) and several others we play by the rules rather than disregarding them for instant gratification. Even clubs like Swansea and Stoke are facing up to life without PPs and cutting their cloth accordingly.

As long as people like Morris try to game the system the EFL needs to clamp down hard otherwise what`s the point?

Absolutely. I'd hope we wouldn't deliberately game the system, whoever is in charge. Whether it's SL and his way of doing things or an individual or consortium who wouldn't convert their loans (whether it's their money or money they've borrowed). I suppose, unless any of these clubs generate a lot of transfer revenue, most of them will still run at a "manageable" and acceptable loss, as far as the rules go, like we do!

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Been widely quoted that we reduced our wage bill by a third this summer.

Excellent if true. That suggests wages are now at c.22m. I assume turnover has also dropped though? Match Day and Operating Income will definitely be down. By a similar %? I don't know, if turnover is also down by 1/3 then that's c.18m. Others may know more but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we had a wages/turnover ration under 100%.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Gibson and Lansdown might be exchanging a load of emojis in their little “financial prudence” WhatsApp group 🤣🤣🤣

Well quite. And as frustrating as it is SL can’t/won’t get the cheque book out at time’s this is a sobering reminder of why. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

226% of income? Jeez. People wonder why they are losing money?

I know we are propped up by Steve but how would we compare to that? It's amazing that they haven't been stopped until now. 

You would have thought jumping from 76% to 197% would have set alarm belles ringing at the EFL? Utterly shambolic.

…and that’s just wages….still got amortisation and other costs to add in.  They were taking the Mickey the moment they didn’t sell Swift last summer.

  • Like 2
  • Hmmm 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Didn't they have a whopping great fine a few years ago when they were promoted to the Prem? Whatever happened with that.

Good side are QPR BTW.

It was a big fine, but it was reduced on appeal ....

 

 

 

 

To about £42,000,000 😲

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah the QPR saga...

It wasn't what it seemed, the £42m fine was actually broken down not that big a hit to the club because of how it was constructed...

...£17m/10=£1.7m per year.

£3m in EFL legal costs- I assume that would be paid fairly sharpish.

£22m in shareholders writing off existing loans.

http://priceoffootball.com/qpr-ffp-fine-everything-counts-in-large-amounts/

The EFL IIRC wanted to fine them originally- ie back in 2014- something like £50m, or maybe £58m! That's not including legal fees or conversion to equity I believe, but a straight up fine in line with the breach. £1 breach=£1 fine kinda thing.

Although Kieran's piece says £46m but I'm sure media reports referenced numbers between £50-58m.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, fgrsimon said:

We absolutely are in a position to crow because thankfully our owner has always played by the rules unlike those that are now reaping the rewards of bending/breaking the rules 

A pity the EFL were not on top of this where Villa and Wolves were concerned!  Neither achieved their success playing by the rules, they shafted the championship massively and got away with it.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ah the QPR saga...

It wasn't what it seemed, the £42m fine was actually broken down not that big a hit to the club because of how it was constructed...

...£17m/10=£1.7m per year.

£3m in EFL legal costs- I assume that would be paid fairly sharpish.

£22m in shareholders writing off existing loans.

http://priceoffootball.com/qpr-ffp-fine-everything-counts-in-large-amounts/

The EFL IIRC wanted to fine them originally- ie back in 2014- something like £50m, or maybe £58m! That's not including legal fees or conversion to equity I believe, but a straight up fine in line with the breach. £1 breach=£1 fine kinda thing.

Although Kieran's piece says £46m but I'm sure media reports referenced numbers between £50-58m.

The first figure they threw at them was £60m ,  it didn't take that long to be negotiated down. Shame they couldn't have been as firm with certain other clubs.
I Googled it for figures and you are bang on with the breakdown (BBC), what I didn't realise is Bournemouth also got done, all be it a tiny fine which was reduced. Bournemouth paying just £4.75m, originally told to pay a fine of £7.5m - for breaking rules when they won promotion in 2014-15. You can see why teams like Reading risk it, £4.75m is not a great deal if it comes off, come to that even if it doesn't. I think Readings problem is they carried on frittering.

Edited by 1960maaan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This is a relief- the Reading situation confused me over the summer!

I remember when they were released from a soft embargo under the ahem 'governance' of Shaun Harvey in Summer 2019, they proceeded to add the following- as per Wiki:

For fees

  1. Joao
  2. Puscas

On a free

  1. Adam- released from Stoke who were surely high payers.
  2. Rafael- from Sampdoria, probably not tiny wages?

Unsure if they got Morrison from Birmingham before or after.

On loan

  1. Miazga- though Chelsea help with the wages as we know.
  2. Boye- from Torino, again Serie A
  3. Pele- Monaco

Loan to buy

Ejaria

They've had it coming for sure.

I did wonder as well, based on a random Twitter post that I read whether it might be a case of they can sign their 6 players on EFL imposed limits and take the points or they can sign nobody at all in lieu of the points hit and just fill up the team with youth players when injuries hit- emergency GK aside, ie a full on embargo in lieu of points or their current embargo allowing for 6 but with a deduction.

@Mr Popodopolous

We had a few good chats on the FFP thread with regards to Reading.

I think of all the clubs that have fallen foul so far; they are the most contemptuous.

At each stage, they have knownthey are in the wrong over the last few seasons. But have continually thought stuff it, we'll push it a little bit more.

Cue last month's transfer window, and the signings of Holliett, Drinkwater, Baba, Hallovic, Dann and others. They knew they were going to get penalised anyway. I can't believe the EFL let them get away with it for so long.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Mr Popodopolous

We had a few good chats on the FFP thread with regards to Reading.

I think of all the clubs that have fallen foul so far; they are the most contemptuous.

At each stage, they have knownthey are in the wrong over the last few seasons. But have continually thought stuff it, we'll push it a little bit more.

Cue last month's transfer window, and the signings of Holliett, Drinkwater, Baba, Hallovic, Dann and others. They knew they were going to get penalised anyway. I can't believe the EFL let them get away with it for so long.

That's the bit that bugs me the most, they must of known last month they were heading for administration.

If you look at those players and how much they must be on and think how much the loan club must be funding the wage you have to wonder if anything dodgy is going on - it doesn't seem right that Chelsea turn around to a loan request and say "oh and don't worry we'll cover 90% of Drinkwater wages while he plays for you".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Pezo said:

That's the bit that bugs me the most, they must of known last month they were heading for administration.

If you look at those players and how much they must be on and think how much the loan club must be funding the wage you have to wonder if anything dodgy is going on - it doesn't seem right that Chelsea turn around to a loan request and say "oh and don't worry we'll cover 90% of Drinkwater wages while he plays for you".

Yep, strikes me of the EFL being “asleep at the wheel” ……again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, dave36 said:

A pity the EFL were not on top of this where Villa and Wolves were concerned!  Neither achieved their success playing by the rules, they shafted the championship massively and got away with it.

 

The problem is, the efl can't do anything until the official accounts are submitted

And in villa and wolves case that was after they were promoted, but then they are outside the efl's control and they can't do a thing,

If/when the get relegated then you may see some action taken like with qpr and Bournemouth who both settled I believe which in turn made the efl tighten the rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Yep, strikes me of the EFL being “asleep at the wheel” ……again!

No you can't punish the club's without the proper evidence,

Imagine for one minute we got points deducted because little bristol city can no way afford 8 million for kalas, and it was done before we submitted accounts etc,

Can you imagine the fallout from us suing the efl and the millions we would win,

These things can not be punished in a kangaroo court, they will always take time 

There is no way to fast track it,

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

Which is why they've struggled for a number of seasons but now reaping the benefits 

Done well, and seem to have done it properly since then.
At one stage I think they were technically the richest club in the world, Briatore, Ecclestone and Mittal. All be it for a short time before Briatore (with multiple fraud convictions apparently) stepped down, leaving just the two multi billionaires left. The documentary, four year plan is worth a watch.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the Reading forum it seems that the majority accept that a points deduction is deserved and is down to mismanagement by their owner. No crowing that their owner was too clever for the EFL, unlike many Derby fans - until administration revealed that Morris was not the hero they thought he was.

  • Like 5
  • Flames 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Looking at the Reading forum it seems that the majority accept that a points deduction is deserved and is down to mismanagement by their owner. No crowing that their owner was too clever for the EFL, unlike many Derby fans - until administration revealed that Morris was not the hero they thought he was.

On our forums Reading tend to draw the same ire as they do everywhere else - plastic nothing club etc (not entirely fair to the 4,500 who used to regularly frequent Elm Park, but there you go).

But to be fair to the smug soggy biscuits, they've been quite sombre and level-headed about the whole thing compared to the legions of Derbeh fans who have talked utter crap since this shitstorm first blew at the end of last season.  That club has spent a decade cheating the rest of us who've spent any of that time in the Championship and have spent months denying it or blaming whoever else could be blamed.  I hope they get relegated two divisions.

 

  • Like 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Pezo said:

That's the bit that bugs me the most, they must of known last month they were heading for administration.

If you look at those players and how much they must be on and think how much the loan club must be funding the wage you have to wonder if anything dodgy is going on - it doesn't seem right that Chelsea turn around to a loan request and say "oh and don't worry we'll cover 90% of Drinkwater wages while he plays for you".

Ah it's not administration, it's FFP- two rather separate offences.

Sounds like Chelsea are choosing/did choose to cover 90% of the wages for Rahman and Drinkwater.

Their wages are reportedly £50k per week and £120k per week respectively.

Reading are allowed to pay £8,500 per week per player under their embargo/restrictions.

Therefore, for the 2 a max of £17k in total- therefore the bulk would need covering by Chelsea.

From what I can gather, they do seem to help Reading out with wages for loanees.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Simster said:

On our forums Reading tend to draw the same ire as they do everywhere else - plastic nothing club etc (not entirely fair to the 4,500 who used to regularly frequent Elm Park, but there you go).

But to be fair to the smug soggy biscuits, they've been quite sombre and level-headed about the whole thing compared to the legions of Derbeh fans who have talked utter crap since this shitstorm first blew at the end of last season.  That club has spent a decade cheating the rest of us who've spent any of that time in the Championship and have spent months denying it or blaming whoever else could be blamed.  I hope they get relegated two divisions.

 

Yeah I notice the Reading fans have been more phlegmatic tbh, more level-headed etc.

Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday fans- 9 and 12 latterly 6 respectively- they complained and quite loudly for a time yes...but it abated after a while.

Derby however, a lot of their fans truly take, have taken the biscuit. Unbelievable their take.

Just a small counterview on that point, I'd say that Derby's overspending and cheating only really kicked in under Mel Morris. There's no real question about whether their prior owners pushed or overspent vs limits- their accounts under GSE look normal enough, in fact GSE were actually reportedly big advocates of FFP. More like 5-6 years then.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah I notice the Reading fans have been more phlegmatic tbh, more level-headed etc.

Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday fans- 9 and 12 latterly 6 respectively- they complained and quite loudly for a time yes...but it abated after a while.

Derby however, a lot of their fans truly take, have taken the biscuit. Unbelievable their take.

Just a small counterview on that point, I'd say that Derby's overspending and cheating only really kicked in under Mel Morris. There's no real question about whether their prior owners pushed or overspent vs limits- their accounts under GSE look normal enough, in fact GSE were actually reportedly big advocates of FFP.

Indeed Mel Morris bought Derby in May 14 - 7.5 years and the best part of a decade ago!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Mr Popodopolous

We had a few good chats on the FFP thread with regards to Reading.

I think of all the clubs that have fallen foul so far; they are the most contemptuous.

At each stage, they have knownthey are in the wrong over the last few seasons. But have continually thought stuff it, we'll push it a little bit more.

Cue last month's transfer window, and the signings of Holliett, Drinkwater, Baba, Hallovic, Dann and others. They knew they were going to get penalised anyway. I can't believe the EFL let them get away with it for so long.

We did!

Yep, they: a) Sold stadium in 2017/18, okay that was smallish profit- but b) Resold it from consolidated to owners other entity along with varied other fixed assets- old training ground and land around stadium IIRC- as well as a laughable £3m loan fee for Aluko. c) They turned down the bid for Swift in summer 2020, Loader in summer 2019 or was it Jan 2020 and Moore in summer 2018 d) The fact that they added the players they did for the fees they did when released from the soft embargo in IIRC July 2019 e) The fact that when they knew that they might still be under transfer restrictions they added Ejaria on a loan to buy in 2019- and that went through in 2020 though there was some doubt for a time that the EFL would approve it.

If it is indeed that, then 9 points feels light tbh. Of the 6, Dann, Baba Rahman, Drinkwater and Halilovic feel like odd signings for a club in their position- £8.5k per week per player for up to 6 players wage cap, no loan fee etc!?

5 minutes ago, Simster said:

Indeed Mel Morris bought Derby in May 14 - 7.5 years and the best part of a decade ago!

Date of takeover I saw listed was end of August 2015. Happy to look back further though.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Monkeh said:

The problem is, the efl can't do anything until the official accounts are submitted

And in villa and wolves case that was after they were promoted, but then they are outside the efl's control and they can't do a thing,

If/when the get relegated then you may see some action taken like with qpr and Bournemouth who both settled I believe which in turn made the efl tighten the rules

 

9 hours ago, Monkeh said:

No you can't punish the club's without the proper evidence,

Imagine for one minute we got points deducted because little bristol city can no way afford 8 million for kalas, and it was done before we submitted accounts etc,

Can you imagine the fallout from us suing the efl and the millions we would win,

These things can not be punished in a kangaroo court, they will always take time 

There is no way to fast track it,

I agree and I disagree.

Technically, the EFL have the power to launch charges not long after the season- there is after all a process and an ongoing one at that.

If you look at the Birmingham case...when the written reasons were out in March 2019, the following becomes apparent:

  1. They were put into a soft embargo- along with many other clubs- in spring 2018.
  2. This was for the PROJECTED Accounts to 30th June 2018 combined with the existing prior results for 2016/17 and 2015/16.
  3. The Pedersen thing threw stuff up in the air but the process all the same.
  4. The EFL got within a week or a 2 of that updated Projected Accounts for that season.
  5. On 2nd August 2018, a statement was out- it was clear that they had overspent. One of their vain hopes was crossing their fingers and trusting that Butland and Gray sell-on cash would keep them in line to 2017/18 just about. This was wishful thinking.
  6. On 14th August 2018, they were charged.

There is therefore literally no need to wait for them to appear at Companies House as such. Derby deserve exemplary punishment as they appear not to be abiding with any such deadlines- failure to submit in the correct timeframe should be an offence in itself that earns a points deduction IMO.

Now with the new regulations, they offer wider powers and the chance for ongoing monitoring- and there is supposed to be provision for points to be docked in March/April during the EXISTING season ie you overspend in the 3 years to 2018/19, you get docked points in Spring or May 2019.

Now the EFL won an appeal vs Birmingham last summer- no points but a legal principle was won, ie their Business Plan case. Now deemed to be an absolute obligation as opposed to needing to use best endeavours.

To me, if you combine the regulations and harmonise them correctly then in-season deductions ie in the existing season of the Projected Breach seems more feasible to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...