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Safe Standing


Port Said Red
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On 22/09/2021 at 14:35, stoke giiford red said:

Hasn't the singing section been 'safe standing' all season? What would change if we applied to be part of the trial?

If we apply to be part of the pilot scheme, the club will need to provide some safe standing for away fans too, as that is a requirement of participating in the pilot.

The safe standing areas would then also be marketed as standing areas and it must say this on the ticket. So, fans standing in those areas would no longer be in breach of ground regulations, as they are now - even though standing is currently tolerated in such areas.

New rules will also come into force to ensure that standing fans have plenty of room and don't spill out into the aisles. In grounds where the space along the rows is insufficient, standing may still be allowed, but capacity will be cut to avoid encroachment into the gangways. The guidance gives an example of "at least 5 seats" per row being taken off sale.

I imagine that in due course there will also be a general clamp down on standing in any area other than the safe standing areas, so that fans who prefer to sit aren't inconvenienced. The logic will be, I presume that clubs will by then have had the opportunity to provide standing areas and if they choose not to, then they must keep all fans sat down.

That clearly won't work, so it makes sense for all clubs to provide a mix of standing and seated accommodation to match the demand in their individual case.

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16 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

If we apply to be part of the pilot scheme, the club will need to provide some safe standing for away fans too, as that is a requirement of participating in the pilot.

The safe standing areas would then also be marketed as standing areas and it must say this on the ticket. So, fans standing in those areas would no longer be in breach of ground regulations, as they are now - even though standing is currently tolerated in such areas.

New rules will also come into force to ensure that standing fans have plenty of room and don't spill out into the aisles. In grounds where the space along the rows is insufficient, standing may still be allowed, but capacity will be cut to avoid encroachment into the gangways. The guidance gives an example of "at least 5 seats" per row being taken off sale.

I imagine that in due course there will also be a general clamp down on standing in any area other than the safe standing areas, so that fans who prefer to sit aren't inconvenienced. The logic will be, I presume that clubs will by then have had the opportunity to provide standing areas and if they choose not to, then they must keep all fans sat down.

That clearly won't work, so it makes sense for all clubs to provide a mix of standing and seated accommodation to match the demand in their individual case.

I wonder how much more affordable safe standing tickets will be than seated tickets, because It wouldn't surprise me if they were premium priced ...

Edited by Sleepy1968
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22 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

If we apply to be part of the pilot scheme, the club will need to provide some safe standing for away fans too, as that is a requirement of participating in the pilot.

The safe standing areas would then also be marketed as standing areas and it must say this on the ticket. So, fans standing in those areas would no longer be in breach of ground regulations, as they are now - even though standing is currently tolerated in such areas.

New rules will also come into force to ensure that standing fans have plenty of room and don't spill out into the aisles. In grounds where the space along the rows is insufficient, standing may still be allowed, but capacity will be cut to avoid encroachment into the gangways. The guidance gives an example of "at least 5 seats" per row being taken off sale.

I imagine that in due course there will also be a general clamp down on standing in any area other than the safe standing areas, so that fans who prefer to sit aren't inconvenienced. The logic will be, I presume that clubs will by then have had the opportunity to provide standing areas and if they choose not to, then they must keep all fans sat down.

That clearly won't work, so it makes sense for all clubs to provide a mix of standing and seated accommodation to match the demand in their individual case.

The away fans bit is interesting due to the fact that as a general rule, rather a lot of away fans- and not just here but in general- stand verbatim.

How do you go about enforcing all-seater in a zone of the ground where the bulk stand regardless? Yet what is our safe standing area, about 1,000? Away end would presumably need to be equal to this, but given the % of away fans that stand routinely it seems potentially tricky to me...

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The away fans bit is interesting due to the fact that as a general rule, rather a lot of away fans- and not just here but in general- stand verbatim.

How do you go about enforcing all-seater in a zone of the ground where the bulk stand regardless? Yet what is our safe standing area, about 1,000? Away end would presumably need to be equal to this, but given the % of away fans that stand routinely it seems potentially tricky to me...

The new guidelines do not specify the size of the safe standing area required for away fans. If clubs just wanted to pay lip service to the requirement, they could provide a very small area.

It's hard to know how many away fans stand because they want to and how many do so because they have no choice if they want to see the game.

For us, this may actually be an opportunity to diminish the ability of away fans to get the whole Atyeo singing in unison. Perhaps there should be two or three pockets of safe standing provided for them, with sitting enforced in the areas in between. With luck that might result in a disorganised cacophony!

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On 22/09/2021 at 13:36, nick jones of hereford said:

We’ve not jumped the gun, we’ve installed the infrastructure for safe standing - but the rail seating currently in place is fixed so that it’s a seating area - which is easily adapted to be safe standing  

What's the difference? Can you elaborate?  Does safe standing differ from rail seating in that you cannot convert to seats?  It only can allow standing? 🤔

I'd love to be standing again, but given I sit with a bunch of mates the whole relocating en mass would be a pain. 

 

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1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

What's the difference? Can you elaborate?  Does safe standing differ from rail seating in that you cannot convert to seats?  It only can allow standing? 🤔

I'd love to be standing again, but given I sit with a bunch of mates the whole relocating en mass would be a pain. 

 

Under current rules and regs, there is no difference structurally. The difference is in the legality. At present, even though standing is tolerated in the SE corner of the ground, it is still technically a breach of the ground regulations and the club's licence from the Sports Ground Safety Authority.

Clubs approved for participation in the trials from 1 January 2022 will have their licences amended, so that allowing fans to stand in the designated area, which must comply with strict criteria that will be assessed during the application process, will no longer be a breach of the club's licence. The fans too will thus no longer be in breach of the ground regulations.

If Ashton Gate gets approved, I would not expect any structural changes in the home standing area. A standing area for away fans in the Atyeo will, however, have to be added, as this is a requirement of the rules for the trials.

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Bit in the Times- well The Game- on Monday about this.

Our own @Blagdon red appeared in there, quoted anyway! Safe Standing Roadshow.

The clubs who will be doing the safe standing trial are Chelsea, both Manchester clubs and Tottenham. These are the 5 who have applied?

One Championship club- Cardiff! If all goes well, it says the Government would roll it out everywhere.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/countdown-to-era-of-safe-standing-in-england-after-tottenham-hotspur-chelsea-manchester-united-manchester-city-and-cardiff-city-opt-in-tm6bfrzpj

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Saw some interesting figures. Think Tottenham was mooted at 7k, would that include home and away @Blagdon red?

It's about 11% of capacity there, extrapolated to AG that's just under 3k.

Although another article said up to 10k there.

You've probably covered elsewhere tbh but what would be the % of a capacity do you think that would be applicable for it? Thanks.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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54 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Saw some interesting figures. Think Tottenham was mooted at 7k, would that include home and away @Blagdon red?

It's about 11% of capacity there, extrapolated to AG that's just under 3k.

Although another article said up to 10k there.

You've probably covered elsewhere tbh but what would be the % of a capacity do you think that would be applicable for it? Thanks.

Spurs, Chelsea and Man City have safe standing provision in place now for all/most of their away fans' areas.

My understanding is that while other early adopters are being allowed to do just 10% of their away areas initially, the expectation from the safety authorities is that supply should ultimately match demand and in due course reflect the number of visiting fans who prefer to stand.

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8 minutes ago, Scrumpy Dziek said:

Are the 2 areas originally (or once) suggested (Lower Dolman & Upper South) still likely to be the next converted?

The very original areas earmarked were, in fact, the Lower Dolman, as you say, and the Lower South. It was only in response to fan feedback and the expression of a preference for having a standing area in the South Stand at the back rather than the front that the back became the area earmarked for it.

But those were old plans for the redevelopment and a lot has changed since then. So, I think plans for any new areas now would start with a blank sheet of paper.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Perhaps I'm missing something here but might conversion of the Lower part of a stand not block the view of those in the upper half who would presumably be seated?

I follow this issue occasionally and think that conversion of these areas tick a lot of boxes but wonder about the one bit above.

If you cast your mind right back, you'll recall the image below, which was produced by the architects doing the redevelopment. It envisaged what is known as a 'super riser' at the back of a lower 'paddock' at the front of the South Stand:

Seating Bowl 1.jpg

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On 02/11/2021 at 01:22, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit in the Times- well The Game- on Monday about this.

Our own @Blagdon red appeared in there, quoted anyway! Safe Standing Roadshow.

The clubs who will be doing the safe standing trial are Chelsea, both Manchester clubs and Tottenham. These are the 5 who have applied?

One Championship club- Cardiff! If all goes well, it says the Government would roll it out everywhere.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/countdown-to-era-of-safe-standing-in-england-after-tottenham-hotspur-chelsea-manchester-united-manchester-city-and-cardiff-city-opt-in-tm6bfrzpj

Installed at Cardiff now

20211104_181324.jpg

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5 hours ago, phantom said:

Installed at Cardiff now

20211104_181324.jpg

Personally I wouldn't call that 'safe standing'. I'd call it barriers fitted over the top of tip-up plastic seats (mind your head!).

In an ideal world, safe standing areas provide a lot more space for the standing fans by reducing the depth of the tipped up seat to no more than the depth of the barrier posts, and also remove the safety hazard presented by the presence of a seat that can be stood on and potentially fallen off by locking a flat, streamlined seat upright between the barrier posts. That would be a safe standing set-up. What's shown here is a compromise with several flaws.

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Having a quick scan of yesterday's Times.

Surprise, surprise. Will try and post it in full later but police moaning again. Quotes Mark Roberts the chief constable in charge of UK's football policing.

Says something about "a headlong rush" towards it and also mentions overcrowding and creation of no-go areas dominated by "ultra"-type fans.

Hardly a headlong rush, I remember campaigns of varying levels for over 20 years!!

Ticket checks if required will easily solve the overcrowding.

Dominated by "ultra"- type fans? Possibly but doubt it IMO.

Seems to be moaning for the sake of it tbh. Or perhaps throwing up spurious objections, think of it as akin to procedural defences in trials in cases when they are mainly for stalling.

Since when did police become vocal on policy decisions anyway? Sounds relatively new trend.

He also complained about the prospect of alcohol in view of the pitch recently IIRC.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Standing areas returning at five clubs from January

Cardiff City, Chelsea, Manchester City, Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur will be the first clubs to have licensed ‘safe standing’ in seated areas from 1 January 2022, the Sports Minister, Nigel Huddleston, has announced.

The five clubs will be the first in the top two tiers of football in England and Wales to allow standing in nearly 30 years.

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