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Andy Cole on Jacki Dziekanowski


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13 hours ago, Robbored said:

I have never understood why so many consider Jackl to be some kind of legend. 

No doubt he about his skills but he was a lazy bugger who scored a massive 7 goals for City. Osman left him out one game and announced that ‘a few tricks and a 30yrd shot isn’t enough’

A maverick carried by the rest of the team.

 

We all go to football to be entertained and one moment of brilliance can stay in the memory forever and we will always remember Jacki  

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I could be generous and say there are a few on here who can't have seen him play, or were perhaps too young to appreciate what they were seeing, but if they genuinely believe Jacki was 'lazy' or 'over-rated' there really is no help.

Perhaps best summed up by the night at the Old Den when Jacki, donning a splendid Burberry raincoat, stood next to us on the terrace watching us get dicked. He'd been dropped by Osman in favour of Shelton. He wasn't backward in coming forward as to this thoughts on the side that night.

Now both he and Cole weren't the most popular figures amongst the playing staff for the simple (and correct) reason that all other players at the club weren't fit to lace their boots. They weren't shy at letting teammates know their frustration that they were playing levels beneath were they deserved to be playing, that their colleagues simply weren't good enough. They carried a well-earned and deserved arrogance. Cole always made clear we were a temporary stop en route a stellar career; Jacki a man going the other way who knew he could have been one of the greatest ever, had he been bothered, which he appeared not to be.

That night Cole scored, missed a couple of self-created sitters and spent the remainder openly berating his colleagues at their ineptitude and inability to play the quick and easy ball to him. Open animosity on the park the likes of which rarely seen. Jacki was the only City player on his plane, save he was on the terrace. His manager getting torn to shreds at the back, his replacement pointing and pointing and pointing whilst The Wall midfield ran him ragged.

Recall this was the 'Polish George Best' playing alongside the legends that are Connor, Harrison, Pennyfather, Edwards and for the briefest of sojourns even 'Mr X' (Nicky Reid as you ask, whose epithet arose when, getting mullered at Newcastle, Jacki was subbed and some bright spark pointed and asked, "Who's that who's replaced him?" To which the response was: "That's our new debutant but he's been on from the start, not so you'd notice...")

Jacki wasn't the greatest team player, he wasn't as successful as his skills deserved him to be, but he did things only a select few players could ever do. Not dream of doing, DO! A player who made opposition fans applaud his outrageous skills. And for those briefest and brightest of moments he brought joy the likes of which has rarely been glimpsed at City. So if you're Tainton over Cormack, Shelton over Jacki, that says everything about you and nothing about them.

Edited by BTRFTG
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11 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I could be generous and say there are a few on here who can't have seen him play, or were perhaps too young to appreciate what they were seeing, but if they genuinely believe Jacki was 'lazy' or 'over-rated' there really is no help.

Perhaps best summed up by the night at the Old Den when Jacki, donning a splendid Burberry raincoat, stood next to us on the terrace watching us get dicked. He'd been dropped by Osman in favour of Shelton. He wasn't backward in coming forward as to this thoughts on the side that night.

Now both he and Cole weren't the most popular figures amongst the playing staff for the simple (and correct) reason that all other players at the club weren't fit to lace their boots. They weren't shy at letting teammates know their frustration that they were playing levels beneath were they deserved to be playing, that their colleagues simply weren't good enough. They carried a well-earned and deserved arrogance. Cole always made clear we were a temporary stop en route a stellar career; Jacki a man going the other way who knew he could have been one of the greatest ever, had he been bothered, which he appeared not to be.

That night Cole scored, missed a couple of self-created sitters and spent the remainder openly berating his colleagues at their ineptitude and inability to play the quick and easy ball to him. Open animosity on the park the likes of which rarely seen. Jacki was the only City player on his plane, save he was on the terrace. His manager getting torn to shreds at the back, his replacement pointing and pointing and pointing whilst The Wall midfield ran him ragged.

Recall this was the 'Polish George Best' playing alongside the legends that are Connor, Harrison, Pennyfather, Edwards and for the briefest of sojourns even 'Mr X' (Nicky Reid as you ask, whose epithet arose when, getting mullered at Newcastle, Jacki was subbed and some bright spark pointed and asked, "Who's that who's replaced him?" To which the response was: "That's our new debutant but he's been on from the start, not so you'd notice...")

Jacki want the greatest team player, he wasn't as successful as his skills deserved him to be, but he did things only a select few players could ever do. Not dream of doing, DO! A player who made opposition fans applaud his outrageous skills. And for those briefest and brightest of moments he brought joy the likes of which has rarely been glimpsed at City. So if you're Tainton over Cormack, Shelton over Jacki, that says everything about you and nothing about them.

well said.

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12 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He was just before my time. Was he really head and shoulders in terms of ability above the likes of Noble, JET and Tomlin? All three had incredible natural ability but also never delivered on a regular basis. I feel the highlights reel from those three may exceed Jacki, but could well be wrong. 

Interested to know your opinion.... 

In terms of ability, yes.  100% one of the most talented players this club has ever had.  Sadly, there were only flashes of that brilliance shown, but he was a joy to watch at those times.

However, the three you mentioned contributed more to the club than Jackie did.  Even Tomlin, until he went full Dinning on our arses.  JET was lazy, but that double winning season was so important to us. Tomlin almost single handedly kept us up and Nobes took us to Wembley as well as (I think) securing promotion the year before for us.

But in terms of ability, only Tinman comes close for me.

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Loved watching these two when I was a young lad .Obviously Cole was class . 500k wow. And Jacki was fantastic to watch IMO and was a bargain for 250k. Vividly remember one incident when he flicked over a defenders head then another and smashed it against the bar . Also Leicester away in the cup and Pompey at home. Obviously he had his faults but I would rather watch players like him any day of the week. Great times watching city for me

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50 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Jacki.... did things only a select few players could ever do. Not dream of doing, DO! A player who made opposition fans applaud his outrageous skills. And for those briefest and brightest of moments he brought joy the likes of which has rarely been glimpsed at City. 

Beautifully put. 

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A lot of what I’d want to say here has already been articulated well, but I’d just add that the problem wasn’t necessarily just Jacki, it was what was around him.

Opening day of the season in I think 92-93, we played Pompey. The game was exhilarating- a three all draw, and us having Cole, Jacki and Leroy Rosenior up front. Genuinely could and should have been the best front line in the league.
 

However, at the back, we had Brian Mitchell and David Thompson. We were a horror show. And it became a case of we’d have to score 3 to win a game - and for many reasons, Jacki didn’t do that every game.

This story ends the same way every time. From Tottenham under Ardiles, to when we spunked cash on Akinbiyi, Anderson and Thorpe so ended up with Julian Watts at the back, if you don’t get a decent base, even if the “maverick” performs, you’re by and large screwed. And we were, and naturally as we weren’t great defensively, Jacki ended up having to first play a role that wasn’t him, and then eventually shunted out as Osman went for pragmatism - not necessarily the wrong thing, but nowhere near as entertaining.

Was he better than JET, Noble or Tomlin? Put it this way. He made Junior Bent look like a world beater. 
 

As a “lonely hearts” ad in the Bountyhunter said at the time “Polish George Best seeks ball”. We just weren’t set up to give it to him enough.

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13 hours ago, Robbored said:

Scot Murray was as skilled as Jacki and scored many more goals - he’s the one player who filled AG with anticipation when he got the ball. He was truly exciting to watch and yet barely get a mention on here.

I’m sorry but Scotty was nowhere near the ability that Jacki had. Yes he scored more goals but Jacki was one of those rare Mavericks that had you on the edge of your seat every time he got the ball. A fantastic talent that was sadly blighted by drink issues but those of us who have watched football for 40+ years appreciate these rare talents when they come along 

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2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

A lot of what I’d want to say here has already been articulated well, but I’d just add that the problem wasn’t necessarily just Jacki, it was what was around him.

Opening day of the season in I think 92-93, we played Pompey. The game was exhilarating- a three all draw, and us having Cole, Jacki and Leroy Rosenior up front. Genuinely could and should have been the best front line in the league.
 

However, at the back, we had Brian Mitchell and David Thompson. We were a horror show. And it became a case of we’d have to score 3 to win a game - and for many reasons, Jacki didn’t do that every game.

This story ends the same way every time. From Tottenham under Ardiles, to when we spunked cash on Akinbiyi, Anderson and Thorpe so ended up with Julian Watts at the back, if you don’t get a decent base, even if the “maverick” performs, you’re by and large screwed. And we were, and naturally as we weren’t great defensively, Jacki ended up having to first play a role that wasn’t him, and then eventually shunted out as Osman went for pragmatism - not necessarily the wrong thing, but nowhere near as entertaining.

Was he better than JET, Noble or Tomlin? Put it this way. He made Junior Bent look like a world beater. 
 

As a “lonely hearts” ad in the Bountyhunter said at the time “Polish George Best seeks ball”. We just weren’t set up to give it to him enough.

Ironically, Osman had that base, had he had the spuds to pick Jacki more often. Guess those rumours were true after all..!!

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13 hours ago, Robbored said:

Scot Murray was as skilled as Jacki and scored many more goals - he’s the one player who filled AG with anticipation when he got the ball. He was truly exciting to watch and yet barely get a mention on here.

Rubbish , scotty was a good player and make the most of his talent, jacki was a great player but didn’t. Scotty was a team player , and I guess if picking a team you’d probably pick scotty over Jacki but natural ability no chance 

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1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

In the championship?! Don’t think so!

People forget the levels that players play for us at. JET v Jacki isn’t even a debate. Jacki wasn’t here for long but he lit up the championship and fans loved him for it. Kids especially.  JET was good in league one. 

If Jacki had played league one football he would have looked insanely good!

We were league 1 in 2013/14.

JET never played for us in the Championship. 

 

I'd also suggest that the Championship of 30 years ago and modern day League 1 standards are pretty similar, with the advances in pitch quality and all round professionalism. 

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I've been watching City for about 45 years, and have had many good or bad weekends depending on results. But, for a short period of time, I didn't care whether City won or lost.........I went to watch Jacki and Andy Cole.

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14 hours ago, Robbored said:

Scot Murray was as skilled as Jacki and scored many more

Scoring is the only department in which Murray Top Trumps Jacki, but so as not to tarnish the reputation of much of the sinister half of BS3 that's not something of which gentlemen boast.

 

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13 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He was just before my time. Was he really head and shoulders in terms of ability above the likes of Noble, JET and Tomlin? All three had incredible natural ability but also never delivered on a regular basis. I feel the highlights reel from those three may exceed Jacki, but could well be wrong. 

Interested to know your opinion.... 

The abilty isn't natural. Players create their talent by practicing for thousands of hours. Dziekanowski must have practiced intensely to develop his talent. But ability is a skill where a player can perform a skill on demand. Dziekanowski at Bristol City became unskilled and unprofessional. He made Tomlin look workmanlike. He lacked the abilty to perform anywhere near the level his peers did. 

Was he head and shoulder above? No. Ability is delivering. Ability is passing a ball ten feet to feet not flicking it and losing possession of the ball 50% (and far more) of the time. 

Dziekanowski had a degree of freestyler about him. JET can certainly go through the same but left it where it belongs. Dziekanowski's rainbow flick and volley .. It missed. Most of what he did was utterly ineffectual. 

Romantic v the time (Osman) but a waste of talent. He had a handful of great/good games and a majority where he was a disniterested passenger. Hardwork beats talent when talent doesn't work. BCFC had to play with ten with Dziekanowski on the pitch.

 

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13 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He was just before my time. Was he really head and shoulders in terms of ability above the likes of Noble, JET and Tomlin? All three had incredible natural ability but also never delivered on a regular basis. I feel the highlights reel from those three may exceed Jacki, but could well be wrong. 

Interested to know your opinion.... 

Like you mate, I was too young to assess Jacki's overall impact back then. But I was at the Wolves game in '92 when he scored twice late on, and that clearly lives long in the memory 29 years' later. Like JET and Noble, he was a mecurial talent. 

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9 minutes ago, ooRya said:

I've been watching City for about 45 years, and have had many good or bad weekends depending on results. But, for a short period of time, I didn't care whether City won or lost.........I went to watch Jacki and Andy Cole.

Andy Cole was always going to move on and whoever was the CEO when he went to Newcastle failed to put a sell on clause in the deal. He then went to Man Utd for mega bucks………:cool2:

When it comes to skills two other names are worth a mention - JET and Tomlin, both matched Jacki’s skills but JET in particular was just as lazy. At least Tomlin ran around a bit.

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4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The abilty isn't natural. Players create their talent by practicing for thousands of hours. Dziekanowski must have practiced intensely to develop his talent. But ability is a skill where a player can perform a skill on demand. Dziekanowski at Bristol City became unskilled and unprofessional. He made Tomlin look workmanlike. He lacked the abilty to perform anywhere near the level his peers did. 

Top players can hone their skills for sure but to become as quick footed as Jacki was most of that would been natural ability. He was born with it. Probably didn’t have to practice much either.

Same with JET and Tomlin.

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Just now, Robbored said:

Andy Cole was always going to move on and whoever was the CEO when he went to Newcastle failed to put a sell on clause in the deal. He then went to Man Utd for mega bucks………:cool2:

When it comes to skills two other names are worth a mention - JET and Tomlin, both matched Jacki’s skills but JET in particular was just as lazy. At least Tomlin ran around a bit.

JET under Cotterill was required to hold a shape. He did this in the team successfully to possibly the detriment of his football but still contributed goals and assists. 

Tomlin. Err Lee Johnosn brought in extra coaching staff like Micheal Meaker to work with him. They worked  on things like team shape. A wasted investment in time and investment. The player was not interested in team, or the running in training or on match day. 

Dziekanowski and team shape. Not interested. Shapes were the glasses in Racks. Cracking bloke off the pitch though.

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3 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Nearly 20 minutes long and is the match at Filbert Street

I've related the story here before but to note the assist for Bent's opener came from me, not Jacki. It's the goal I scored for City. If you were there you'll probably still recall my incessant sweet-talking the lino since before kick-off:

"Have a great game lino.... Seen you before, you're very fair, really good.....with us all you need to do is watch Bent...he's so fast nobody'll get near him...." Over and over and over and he was all ears.

And bless him my advice he took, missing that Jacki was miles off when the ball was played through.

You could see the ref's glance querying that he MUST have been off, the lino head shake responding 'No, onside...'

And boy did we take the rise out of him once the goal was given. 

Great day!

 

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Just now, Robbored said:

Top players can hone their skills for sure but to become as quick footed as Jacki was most of that would been natural ability. He was born with it. Probably didn’t have to practice much either.

Same with JET and Tomlin.

No human comes out of the womb with a natural abilty to play with a football. There is no football dna. None. Footskill is developed by extensive intense practice of the involved motor skills creating muscle and neural memory. The greater the practice and its intensity, the more enlarged the memory, the more myellination occurs.

 

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7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No human comes out of the womb with a natural abilty to play with a football. There is no football dna. None. Footskill is developed by extensive intense practice of the involved motor skills creating muscle and neural memory. The greater the practice and its intensity, the more enlarged the memory, the more myellination occurs.

 

I definitely don’t buy that. Why do you suppose that professional footballers sometimes produce sons with the same natural skills if there’s no football DNA?

The Lamapards and the Redknaps are two obvious examples. The Hately’s are another. I’m sure that there are others throughout the game. 

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14 hours ago, Robbored said:

I posted my honest opinion on Jacki. GrahamC summed him up far better than I did.

Dont worry RR, in ten years time, the kids who are 8 now will be frothing about another wonder we had - Lee Tomlin ( and for what it's worth I was a big Tomlin fan but even I couldn't help the problems he had with LJ)

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18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I definitely don’t buy that. Why do you suppose that professional footballers sometimes produce sons with the same natural skills if there’s no football DNA?

The Lamapards and the Redknaps are two obvious examples. The Hately’s are another. I’m sure that there are others throughout the game. 

Sometimes. Exactly. Pros will possess a better understanding of the disciplines which they can share with their sons. Role model and education is not DNA.

Do you believe the Brazilians possess a different DNA to produce so many expressive players? Do the Italians possess a defending gene? There is not a football gene. 

You have provided a magnificent example of how intense practice leads to success and the creation of talent leading to skill in Frank Lampard. Lampard was unathletic and his father put him through an extreme training regime. He had no normal childhood. The training was intense, integrated and internalised to a degree where Lampard became an outlier, his shoulder checking for instance is a result of that training leading to greater vision/peripheral vision. He subconsciously does tasks without thinking due to his thousands of hours of training tasks. Its nurture.

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29 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No human comes out of the womb with a natural abilty to play with a football. There is no football dna. None. Footskill is developed by extensive intense practice of the involved motor skills creating muscle and neural memory. The greater the practice and its intensity, the more enlarged the memory, the more myellination occurs.

 

Is it your contention that with all the intense practice required you could have been as good as Messi?

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6 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Is it your contention that with all the intense practice required you could have been as good as Messi?

No. Messi did thousands of hours of training with a football before he was five. So with the highly abnormal level of training he recieved during his early years creating a advanced technical base many could develop similar technical abilties.

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9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Sometimes. Exactly. Pros will possess a better understanding of the disciplines which they can share with their sons. Role model and education is not DNA.

Do you believe the Brazilians possess a different DNA to produce so many expressive players? Do the Italians possess a defending gene? There is not a football gene. 

You have provided a magnificent example of how intense practice leads to success and the creation of talent leading to skill in Frank Lampard. Lampard was unathletic and his father put him through an extreme training regime. He had no normal childhood. The training was intense, integrated and internalised to a degree where Lampard became an outlier, his shoulder checking for instance is a result of that training leading to greater vision/peripheral vision. He subconsciously does tasks without thinking due to his thousands of hours of training tasks. Its nurture.

I accept that nuturing, training, intense practice are all factors but so is the hereditary gene which in my opinion is the most important of them all. If your father was a professional footballer then it’s more likely that you’ll inherit some of his genes than say the son of a bricklayer who never played football to any level.

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9 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Is it your contention that with all the intense practice required you could have been as good as Messi?

I used to practice to be as good as Alec Eisenstrager but could not get the accent right 😂

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14 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Sometimes. Exactly. Pros will possess a better understanding of the disciplines which they can share with their sons. Role model and education is not DNA.

Do you believe the Brazilians possess a different DNA to produce so many expressive players? Do the Italians possess a defending gene? There is not a football gene. 

You have provided a magnificent example of how intense practice leads to success and the creation of talent leading to skill in Frank Lampard. Lampard was unathletic and his father put him through an extreme training regime. He had no normal childhood. The training was intense, integrated and internalised to a degree where Lampard became an outlier, his shoulder checking for instance is a result of that training leading to greater vision/peripheral vision. He subconsciously does tasks without thinking due to his thousands of hours of training tasks. Its nurture.

Some little lads have innate talent that gets nurtured. Some little lads are naturally clumsy with no ball skill. You can’t nurture ANY lad into a skilled footballer. So yes, there is an an element of varied levels of natural ability.

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