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ExiledAjax
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2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My greatest thanks is to someone like yourself who despite not being colourblind, has shown interest, support and compassion for those people who do. Thank you.

No problem, it's a small thing. But again, it was the photo that emphasised the problem. Must make enjoying the game really difficult.

922740425_Screenshot2021-10-17at08_02_14.png.2999bab9d9ac8c1b01645baf232e28e8.png

 

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11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

With the financial side of 3rd kits, it may be hard to convince an away side not to use a shirt that they can only use on certain occasions. I think it needs a ruling from the higher powers like in Rugby. Though why they are taking until 2027 to do something is odd.

As I said previously, I'm not affected so you tend not to think of it, but those photos I posted really brings it home.

Existing regulations should supersede any 3rd kit financial agreement. Regulations should be enforced not decided by the club when they feel like it.

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3 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

No problem, it's a small thing. But again, it was the photo that emphasised the problem. Must make enjoying the game really difficult.

922740425_Screenshot2021-10-17at08_02_14.png.2999bab9d9ac8c1b01645baf232e28e8.png

Honestly, if you haven't already then please do email the SC&T yourself. I suspect an email from someone without colourblindness could be worth 10 from those of us with it!

You know the maddest thing...I'm not even sure which of those two pictures is supposed to be the "normal" one and which is showing you what colourblind people see!

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1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Existing regulations should supersede any 3rd kit financial agreement. Regulations should be enforced not decided by the club when they feel like it.

It only needs to be guidelines sent to Clubs and manufacturers , explain the problems people suffer. There are plenty of designs and colours to play with.
They can make a big thing about it and big themselves up, companies love to be seen as the good guy.

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Honestly, if you haven't already then please do email the SC&T yourself. I suspect an email from someone without colourblindness could be worth 10 from those of us with it!

Will email them later.

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In Basketball, we often see home and away vest, but I couldn’t work out why sometimes the Flyers wore their away vest at home….but then someone mentioned that they tend to work on the basis of a team having a light coloured and dark coloured vest.  Found this re NBA:

477E5816-ED72-4E43-8D86-E5608BA7DF25.thumb.jpeg.7791492b094d66b3cb604ade0cb2689f.jpeg

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thing is I don't think it needs more rules. Legislation and further regulation should be the last resort, and personally I think the tools are already in place. We simply need clubs, leagues, and kit designers to be made aware of the existing FA and UEFA guidance, and then for them to implement it and bear it in mind when deciding on kit design and selection.

Regarding Saturday's game: I don't think a green kit is ever wise, but if the marketing guys at Bournemouth want it then that's fine. But they should then consider the guidance and realise that the time to use that kit is against Fulham, Swansea, Derby, Coventry, or any other team that plays in white or lighter blue. To use it against teams that play in red is inconsiderate. 

This season I am seeing more fan pressure, and also some response from clubs (see the Huddersfield example above). I am hopeful.

My greatest thanks is to someone like yourself who despite not being colourblind, has shown interest, support and compassion for those people who do. Thank you.

I'm right behind you on this one, EA, and as someone that isn't colourblind. I replied on the thread on Twitter to Wes, I work for Opta at the ground and it was nigh on impossible to tell some of the players numbers from in the Lansdown Stand. Didn't the PA get the wrong name when announcing the first goal or did I dream it?

Have noticed the issue with kits a few times this year and from my perspective, it needs sorting. Reading's kit this season doesn't have the large white patch/red number combo this year, presumably because they are playing in a new 125th anniversary kit. Sheffield Wednesday's are tricky, Rovers numbers are hard to pick out too this season. And as for West Brom's kits..... aaarrgghhhh!!! 

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50 minutes ago, Hamdon Mart said:

I'm right behind you on this one, EA, and as someone that isn't colourblind. I replied on the thread on Twitter to Wes, I work for Opta at the ground and it was nigh on impossible to tell some of the players numbers from in the Lansdown Stand. Didn't the PA get the wrong name when announcing the first goal or did I dream it?

Have noticed the issue with kits a few times this year and from my perspective, it needs sorting. Reading's kit this season doesn't have the large white patch/red number combo this year, presumably because they are playing in a new 125th anniversary kit. Sheffield Wednesday's are tricky, Rovers numbers are hard to pick out too this season. And as for West Brom's kits..... aaarrgghhhh!!! 

Yes, agree….the back of shirts should contain a single colour panel with a contrasting colour number

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@Hamdon Mart very interesting to hear from someone that works in the industry and is directly affected. I've had some minor issues in my own job but I've not heard from someone in football before.

Do your employers know about the issues? Do you know any colleagues that sometimes struggle? Is it something you'd even feel comfortable admitting to your employer? Ever had it mentioned by a player? Honestly I've got so many questions for you - please answer only those you are comfortable with, and of course DM if you don't want to answer on this thread.

Have you had to deal with Man Utd's away kit this season? Dreadful thing. Can't imagine the sponsor is happy that their logo fades into the shirt for about 9% of the population!

@Davefevs I think the American sports have it sorted as those leagues were created in the era of black and white TV as a TV product. In greyscale you have to have light v dark. Just look at the greyscale version of Wales v Ireland in @1960maaan's post above to see why green v red doesn't work. This was a decision driven by TV, and the side effect is that it's also pretty reliably good for those with colourblindness. 

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FWIW it's my understanding that the clubs have to submit their kit 'choices' to the officials ahead of the game for them to give the OK - who then flag any clashes with their kit or anything else that have led to mix and match type kits in the past (away shirt with home shorts etc etc). There's quite a few steps that could be intercepted to make sure it's comfortable for everyone in the stadium

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33 minutes ago, petehinton said:

FWIW it's my understanding that the clubs have to submit their kit 'choices' to the officials ahead of the game for them to give the OK - who then flag any clashes with their kit or anything else that have led to mix and match type kits in the past (away shirt with home shorts etc etc). There's quite a few steps that could be intercepted to make sure it's comfortable for everyone in the 

In the Prem clubs submit kits to the league 2 weeks before a games. Then the kits are run through software that provides feedback to clubs. The colourblind awareness society was involved in setting that software up. 

However, the feedback is only advisory, and clubs are not obligated to follow it.

I don't know what the precise procedure is at EFL level. I suspect it is similar but don't know for sure.

You're right that there will be a number of opportunities to catch an issue though.

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Did seem a bit silly having red play green, especially a green and black kit like that.

Adapting kits to help people who are colour blind is a good idea. I just hope it doesn’t take the character out of some of the kits.

I didn’t really enjoy how so many games in this years euros (especially in the knockout stages) seemed to be white kits versus non white kits.

 

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, agree….the back of shirts should contain a single colour panel with a contrasting colour number

Noooooooo 🤦‍♂️
 

I normally agree with you on a lot, but for once I can’t! I love the tradition of a striped/hooped kit and can’t help but feel a bit disappointed when the back of the shirt is just a blank white slab.

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, agree….the back of shirts should contain a single colour panel with a contrasting colour number

Weirdly it looks like numbers and names are determined by the League itself rather than club by club.

From the EFL regs:

33.16     The size, style, colour and design of shirt numbers and lettering appearing on a Player’s shirt and shorts shall be determined by The League from time to time.

Note as well the following footnote to regulation 38.1 regarding the design of kits:

When considering selection of colours of shirts / socks, Clubs should have regard to the guidance issued by the Football Association on helping those affected by colour blindness, a copy of which is available on the EFL SharePoint site accessed via the Club Portal system.

This applies only to the design of kits, not to the choice of kits for a particular game.

Regarding an actual game, reg 38.3 requires that When away from home a Club shall play in a registered kit which is clearly distinguishable (shirt, shorts and socks) from those of their opponents. This requirement shall apply strictly in respect of shirts and socks. Where both Clubs request to play in the same, or similar, coloured shorts then an application to do so shall be made to the appointed match referee whose consent shall not be unreasonably withheld.

Seems like the onus is on the match officials to sort out a potential kit blend on the day.

So, again, the guidance is there. It just needs to be followed, and perhaps clarified a little!

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23 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

Did seem a bit silly having red play green, especially a green and black kit like that.

Adapting kits to help people who are colour blind is a good idea. I just hope it doesn’t take the character out of some of the kits.

I didn’t really enjoy how so many games in this years euros (especially in the knockout stages) seemed to be white kits versus non white kits.

Appreciate a different viewpoint, but it doesn't need to be a case of everyone in white v colours, and I am respectful of traditional kits and am not advocating a US style "every away kit is white" solution.

White v Black is probably the best contrast, but Red v Yellow, Black v Yellow, Bright Blue (think Birmingham or Chelsea) v Bright Red (Bristol City or Liverpool) or Blue v Yellow are also reliably good contrasts for 99% of people.

The Euro final had its own issue as the referee's pink kit blended quite well with Italy's blue for some colourblind people.

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On 17/10/2021 at 11:41, Davefevs said:

@ExiledAjaxlooks like you weren’t the only one!

I saw Wes in the ground from where I sit, and then he was gone.

So I was just looking around on twitter and saw this in response to this tweet, and in response to some of those from the SC&T (who have honestly been fantastic in their support). I cannot believe that Murray suffers and hasn't said anything before!!!

image.png.8ee52570d0a7f680dbefd63dac80b9a7.png

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12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

So I was just looking around on twitter and saw this in response to this tweet, and in response to some of those from the SC&T (who have honestly been fantastic in their support). I cannot believe that Murray suffers and hasn't said anything before!!!

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TBF to Scott it’s one of those things that unless someone else, like you, is openly talking about it at our club, then you just think it’s you that’s struggling and get on with it.

For instance, besides mild colourblindness my eyesight is very good for my age, late 50’s, in normal or bright light but when it’s darker I struggle nowadays. Including night games where I think our floodlights are quite poor. Recognising players at the far end from where I sit is hard work. But I don’t hear anyone else moaning so I guess it’s just me……..but it might not be

 

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8 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

TBF to Scott it’s one of those things that unless someone else, like you, is openly talking about it at our club, then you just think it’s you that’s struggling and get on with it.

For instance, besides mild colourblindness my eyesight is very good for my age, late 50’s, in normal or bright light but when it’s darker I struggle nowadays. Including night games where I think our floodlights are quite poor. Recognising players at the far end from where I sit is hard work. But I don’t hear anyone else moaning so I guess it’s just me……..but it might not be

Absolutely, I've just always been pretty open about it with people. It's part of who I am, I live with it every day, and if anyone is interested I'll talk their ear off about it and answer any (respectful) questions.

Kind of why I have started this thread (and others) to be honest, and am updating it regularly. If it isn't talked about then people won't realise its an issue, and, crucially, won't realise that it has a relatively simple solution. Maybe if you start moaning then someone will join in!? I'm coming tomorrow, would be happy to come and find you and start a moan if Forest turn out in their dark blue away kit.

Honestly if Wez's tweets have ultimately ended with Bristol City's own kitman admitting to having issues with kit colours - well then I'll sleep happy tonight as that will surely mean that at least our Club starts to take this seriously.

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3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely, I've just always been pretty open about it with people. It's part of who I am, I live with it every day, and if anyone is interested I'll talk their ear off about it and answer any (respectful) questions.

Kind of why I have started this thread (and others) to be honest, and am updating it regularly. If it isn't talked about then people won't realise its an issue, and, crucially, won't realise that it has a relatively simple solution.

Honestly if Wez's tweets have ultimately ended with Bristol City's own kitman admitting to having issues with kit colours - well then I'll sleep happy tonight as that will surely mean that at least our Club starts to take this seriously.

It’s great to see it being taken seriously and not just ignored. Well done on the part you’ve played. 

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Appreciate a different viewpoint, but it doesn't need to be a case of everyone in white v colours, and I am respectful of traditional kits and am not advocating a US style "every away kit is white" solution.

White v Black is probably the best contrast, but Red v Yellow, Black v Yellow, Bright Blue (think Birmingham or Chelsea) v Bright Red (Bristol City or Liverpool) or Blue v Yellow are also reliably good contrasts for 99% of people.

The Euro final had its own issue as the referee's pink kit blended quite well with Italy's blue for some colourblind people.

Yeah I think if we went down the “white kits versus” route I’d be pretty disappointed tbh. I love the variety, but also the history and traditions behind kits and club identities. To lose that would be a crying shame, but I do agree with you and think football in general can do better to avoid obviously silly colour clashes like red and green. 

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12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely, I've just always been pretty open about it with people. It's part of who I am, I live with it every day, and if anyone is interested I'll talk their ear off about it and answer any (respectful) questions.

Kind of why I have started this thread (and others) to be honest, and am updating it regularly. If it isn't talked about then people won't realise its an issue, and, crucially, won't realise that it has a relatively simple solution. Maybe if you start moaning then someone will join in!? I'm coming tomorrow, would be happy to come and find you and start a moan if Forest turn out in their dark blue away kit.

Honestly if Wez's tweets have ultimately ended with Bristol City's own kitman admitting to having issues with kit colours - well then I'll sleep happy tonight as that will surely mean that at least our Club starts to take this seriously.

Wes used to post on here @WesM

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5 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

Yeah I think if we went down the “white kits versus” route I’d be pretty disappointed tbh. I love the variety, but also the history and traditions behind kits and club identities. To lose that would be a crying shame, but I do agree with you and think football in general can do better to avoid obviously silly colour clashes like red and green. 

I don't think any team would really need to alter their traditional home colours. In the UK/Ireland, off the top of my head, you've got just a few teams that wear truly green home colours. There is of course Plymouth Argyle (honestly I cannot imagine what their colourblind fans go through) and the Irish and N. Irish national teams. Celtic maybe, but the white hoops generally mean their kit is ok. Other than that you've got Sassuolo in Italy and I think that's it for major televised leagues.*

To my mind very few other teams would need to make changes so long as everyone adopts a lighter colour (white, light blue, light grey, light pink) for one of either their away or 3rd kit. If they then use that light tone kit at appropriate points we should be able to avoid 99% of the problem kit blends. Even against the above mentioned teasm we would see an improvement, even if it remains mental that they use green at all.

For our club I would humbly suggest that this would mean a red home kit, white away kit, and purple third kit. I can't really see an issue there so far as traditions go - at least in my lifetime we've mostly had white away kits, with a few black and then the odd weird one like that gold and dark blue job we had a while back.

*Personally I also have issues with teams like Blackpool and Luton who favour orange. I don't see the red element of orange very well, and so those kits come across very washed out. Against a green pitch there are issues. However, on balance I suspect they are ok(ish), and they do clash well with most opposition kits - and that is the main issue here.

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2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't think any team would really need to alter their traditional home colours. In the UK/Ireland, off the top of my head, you've got just a few teams that wear truly green home colours. There is of course Plymouth Argyle (honestly I cannot imagine what their colourblind fans go through) and the Irish and N. Irish national teams. Celtic maybe, but the white hoops generally mean their kit is ok. Other than that you've got Sassuolo in Italy and I think that's it for major televised leagues.*

To my mind very few other teams would need to make changes so long as everyone adopts a lighter colour (white, light blue, light grey, light pink) for one of either their away or 3rd kit. If they then use that light tone kit at appropriate points we should be able to avoid 99% of the problem kit blends. Even against the above mentioned teasm we would see an improvement, even if it remains mental that they use green at all.

For our club I would humbly suggest that this would mean a red home kit, white away kit, and purple third kit. I can't really see an issue there so far as traditions go - at least in my lifetime we've mostly had white away kits, with a few black and then the odd weird one like that gold and dark blue job we had a while back.

*Personally I also have issues with teams like Blackpool and Luton who favour orange. I don't see the red element of orange very well, and so those kits come across very washed out. Against a green pitch there are issues. However, on balance I suspect they are ok(ish), and they do clash well with most opposition kits - and that is the main issue here.

With Plymouth they don`t often have an all green kit - there`s usually quite a bit of white in it (sleeves, shoulders, stripes etc.) and often the green is a very bright one. When they do go dark green though it is almost black.

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On 17/10/2021 at 11:38, Barkhamred said:

I'm not colour blind but at one point yesterday looking from the SS I lost one of their players on the far touch line due to the green against the grass and the people in the Dolman. I commented at the time that this shade of green against the grass could also be difficult for players.

The issue I have with this comment is that the Bournemouth players had to deal with this as well but seemed to get on just fine.  It would be slightly odd for our players to therefore be affected (unless they do suffer colour blindness) and Bournemouth's to not be affected. 

11 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

No problem, it's a small thing. But again, it was the photo that emphasised the problem. Must make enjoying the game really difficult.

You're absolutely spot on.  The colouring in that photo does bring a striking realisation as to the troubles people suffer.  As for the highlighted bit.  I'm not sure it's the colour of the kits that have made enjoying the game really difficult over the last few seasons in particular!

In all seriousness thought, I think it's worth giving thought to what more we, as fans with and without this affliction can do to convince the powers that be to take this issue seriously. 

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12 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep I've been speaking to the SC&T and they've been very good at listening to the issues and taking them to the Club.

If they can build a body of evidence then that will help persuade the Club to take more assertive action.

I'd echo again the call for anyone reading this thread who has had issues this season, to just drop an email to them. 

The SC&T also made an appeal on RB 'Sound of the city' tonight. Hopefully the EFL will consider those who suffer colourblindness(4.5% of population) when signing of the kits for games.

Also I'm not colour blind but I found the names & numbers on back of the bournmouth shirts difficult to read.

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7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Appreciate a different viewpoint, but it doesn't need to be a case of everyone in white v colours, and I am respectful of traditional kits and am not advocating a US style "every away kit is white" solution.

White v Black is probably the best contrast, but Red v Yellow, Black v Yellow, Bright Blue (think Birmingham or Chelsea) v Bright Red (Bristol City or Liverpool) or Blue v Yellow are also reliably good contrasts for 99% of people.

The Euro final had its own issue as the referee's pink kit blended quite well with Italy's blue for some colourblind people.

And not for you EA, because you’ll do this anyway, but differentiating a kit with hoops, stripes, halves, a diagonal stripe etc., can really help for us to tell teams apart. As does a good contrast of shorts and socks between opposing teams.

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1 minute ago, E.G.Red said:

The SC&T also made an appeal on RB 'Sound of the city' tonight. Hopefully the EFL will consider those who suffer colourblindness(4.5% of population) when signing of the kits for games.

Also I'm not colour blind but I found the names & numbers on back of the bournmouth shirts difficult to read.

I found the. Impossible from up on A4….had to make do with trying recognise by skin colour, build, hair, etc.

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35 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

The issue I have with this comment is that the Bournemouth players had to deal with this as well but seemed to get on just fine.  It would be slightly odd for our players to therefore be affected (unless they do suffer colour blindness) and Bournemouth's to not be affected. 

 

I understand your point here - I did wonder about it but then again the green is their third strip, how many times have they worn it before Saturday to have experienced problems? Maybe if they had had to work harder during the match it might have caused issues.

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8 hours ago, petehinton said:

FWIW it's my understanding that the clubs have to submit their kit 'choices' to the officials ahead of the game for them to give the OK - who then flag any clashes with their kit or anything else that have led to mix and match type kits in the past (away shirt with home shorts etc etc). There's quite a few steps that could be intercepted to make sure it's comfortable for everyone in the stadium

Then have to factor referees kit colour as well, definitely have been long conversations before about kit colours for each team GK/outfield and refs which should have been easily to solve in advance but only gets dealt with when teams turn up to the ground. 5 different colours of kit to all make sure there's no crossover.

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