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Should we be expecting more from James & King?


headhunter

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With everyone salivating over Jamie Patterson's performance yesterday with the expected "why did we let him go" cries of outrage, plus Korey Smith & Marlon Pack both featuring in the same game, it made me think further about our two ex Leicester starlets and question what they've brought to the midfield that we didn't have before.

King & James were very, very disappointing on Saturday offering nothing offensively or defensively as I saw it, the game often passing them by with the movement & pace of the visitors. I thought both looked off the pace. We've yet to see the best of them or should we just accept they are with us because those better days are well behind them? There has been little evidence so far from either in terms of stunning free kicks or greater threat from corners.

Again we seem to have the numbers in this area of the field but injuries [Williams], inexperience [Scott] and application [Bakinson] make it less effective than it should be.

Massengo should be the first name on the team sheet but with Williams out for x weeks we don't actually look this strong in that area of the field. Interesting that Bournemouth rained in 22 shots on Saturday, add that to the tally in previous games [apart from P'boro] and we are offering a lot of teams shooting practice - that to me is down to midfield not defence.

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To answer the OP, not really.

James has been good, with an availability record others don’t remotely match.

King is a useful squad man, if HNM & Williams were fit (& the latter now looks like experiencing another lay off) then he’d be a sub at best. When you then look at his last 2 seasons & the fact we only thought him worth a year after a short trial, he’s done fine.

I do find this Paterson revisionism after yesterday pretty hilarious, the consensus on here (but certainly not my view) in the summer was we were glad to get shot & Golden Boy Liam Walsh (how’s that going?) would be a big miss..

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I think you're right, our midfield was non existent on Saturday. As the two senior players in the middle they have to shoulder some of the blame for that.

The General consensus amongst our group was that korey Smith would've made it a much tougher day for Bournemouths midfield. 

I'm reluctant to say pato as well as we all know how inconsistent he was and (I'm sure) will continue to be.

Korey on the other hand was dependable week in, week out. I'd rather have him back over either King or James 

Edited by Bernard Lerring
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I think thats the first really below average game from James. He's been pretty consistant so far. So poor was pretty much everyone else it's hard to have a good game there without any real support. King will always be a squad player if our midfield is fully fit. He's got a goal and at least 1 assist i think so far which is fine if he is making cameos but i don't expect him to be starting twice a week. Possibly something not right on Sat, not 100% but we were so far off the pace as a whole it's hard to tell.

We know all about Pato. I think he fits in better to that Swansea side that he would if he was still here. Can't see him as a Nige type of player.

We need Massengo back and hopefully in the form he was before the inury. Depending on Williams and even if it's a shorter term one this time, we may well be needing to add a CM/DM to the Jan shopping list - if there is one!

I don't dislike Bakinson, but the negatives are starting to outweigh the positives, could be one to move on or at least loan out come Jan.

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@headhunterI think the answer depends on whether you want to take Saturday, where all of the front 6 were below par and judge them both on that…or whether you want to evaluate over the dozen games.

I think generally James and King have been decent enough.  Both do a lot of unseen work, both do the basics well.  I think the expectation of King at 32 having played little in the past 2 years was lower than James, and I think both have met the levels I expected.  In terms of James he’s yet to have a settled partner (King, Massengo, Bakinson), which from a team point of view hasn’t helped us either.

Re set-pieces, I think you’re missing that they’ve improved massively.  We are a huge threat from corners and set-pieces, have as many goals from them this season so far as we did all last season in total (league and cup).  If you look at just how many assists James has you’ll only see a 1 against his name, the free-kick for King to head-home v Boro. But of course he doesn’t get the credit for Thompson’s og v Peterborough, or the Pring nod-down to Martin at Reading, nor the numerous corners that have found their target but the recipient not converting.

Shots against is a team thing, you can’t just level at the midfield.

As a team we are still finding our way, we are doing okay results wise.  I wouldn’t say we’ve really clicked yet, flashes at best.

36 minutes ago, Gazred said:

I think thats the first really below average game from James. He's been pretty consistant so far. So poor was pretty much everyone else it's hard to have a good game there without any real support. King will always be a squad player if our midfield is fully fit. He's got a goal and at least 1 assist i think so far which is fine if he is making cameos but i don't expect him to be starting twice a week. Possibly something not right on Sat, not 100% but we were so far off the pace as a whole it's hard to tell.

We know all about Pato. I think he fits in better to that Swansea side that he would if he was still here. Can't see him as a Nige type of player.

We need Massengo back and hopefully in the form he was before the inury. Depending on Williams and even if it's a shorter term one this time, we may well be needing to add a CM/DM to the Jan shopping list - if there is one!

I don't dislike Bakinson, but the negatives are starting to outweigh the positives, could be one to move on or at least loan out come Jan.

agree, he’s been consistent, doing all the right things in the main.  He’s not a flashy player, but a player who you can spend 5 minutes just watching and see what he does. He reads the game well.  As many have said on other threads, it’s never gonna look good when you’re chasing the ball and your opponent all over the park.

agree, King a squad player, no harm in that either.  He’s contributed in different ways. In some games, he’s worked well with James, knowing when to sit and allow James forward.

James did look like he was labouring a bit on Saturday.  Him and King were dragged away from their positions by ineffective play elsewhere, but weren’t great themselves either.  Poor team performance, the front 6 all playing a part in letting down the rest of the team.

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Personally I thought it was significant that Bournemouth targeted James on Saturday. Every time he got the ball they pressed him hard in two's and even threes, I think Parker as a midfielder himself recognised how important he is in linking the team together. If you go back in the build up to their opening goal, you will see that they worked to dispossess him, which then left us exposed because players had started to move forward to support him. He is the type of player that fans don't necessarily recognised as a key part of the team, but opposition teams do.

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James is a good player who had a bad game on Saturday. But then again its not as if he has anyone to pass the ball to.

King bless him, is sadly past it. A decent squad player who might be good drifting into the box if we are chasing a goal but a 90 min player, no chance. Totally anonymous for 75 mins, went off injured and put us down to 10 men, nothing changed as we were already basically playing with 10.

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43 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

James is a good player who had a bad game on Saturday. But then again its not as if he has anyone to pass the ball to.

King bless him, is sadly past it. A decent squad player who might be good drifting into the box if we are chasing a goal but a 90 min player, no chance. Totally anonymous for 75 mins, went off injured and put us down to 10 men, nothing changed as we were already basically playing with 10.

I think King is another in the Skuse mould, being quietly effective in the right place at the right time but without getting into the limelight of being that box to box, all-action tackling, shots from 30 yards type midfielder. Fitness you can certainly argue at times, but Sat when we ended up with 2 recognised midfielders at one stage who are not known for pace and agility against what seemed to be swarms of Bournemouth players, it's understandable why both were ineffective. I suspect HMN / Williams (without injury) have would have made some difference on Sat, perhaps not to result, but to make us a little more combative in the middle, and certainly not given them such a free reign.

 

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2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

To answer the OP, not really.

James has been good, with an availability record others don’t remotely match.

King is a useful squad man, if HNM & Williams were fit (& the latter now looks like experiencing another lay off) then he’d be a sub at best. When you then look at his last 2 seasons & the fact we only thought him worth a year after a short trial, he’s done fine.

I do find this Paterson revisionism after yesterday pretty hilarious, the consensus on here (but certainly not my view) in the summer was we were glad to get shot & Golden Boy Liam Walsh (how’s that going?) would be a big miss..

Paterson would have been of little use yesterday.  We needed to get the ball off Bournemouth not have someone hiding.  Paterson suits a possession based side and that's not us.

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3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

To answer the OP, not really.

James has been good, with an availability record others don’t remotely match.

King is a useful squad man, if HNM & Williams were fit (& the latter now looks like experiencing another lay off) then he’d be a sub at best. When you then look at his last 2 seasons & the fact we only thought him worth a year after a short trial, he’s done fine.

I do find this Paterson revisionism after yesterday pretty hilarious, the consensus on here (but certainly not my view) in the summer was we were glad to get shot & Golden Boy Liam Walsh (how’s that going?) would be a big miss..

He always had one good game for us each season so that's it now for Swansea. With regards to King and James and don't forget Simpson, it starts to look like Nige looking after old mates with one last pay cheque. I would prefer Pack and Smith any time.

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I think given Kings lack of game time over the last few years he has already got more minutes than I was expecting, especially with the amount of competition we have in the middle. I think he got the nod at the start of the season but lost his place due to the performances of HNM and latterly Williams. I think in a fully fit squad (ha) he cameos off the bench to see out games or maybe plays when we need an experienced head but wouldn’t be a regular starter. 

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3 hours ago, Bernard Lerring said:

I think you're right, our midfield was non existent on Saturday. As the two senior players in the middle they have to shoulder some of the blame for that.

The General consensus amongst our group was that korey Smith would've made it a much tougher day for Bournemouths midfield. 

I'm reluctant to say pato as well as we all know how inconsistent he was and (I'm sure) will continue to be.

Korey on the other hand was dependable week in, week out. I'd rather have him back over either King or James 

Korey wasn’t dependable week in week out as he was often out injured - hence why not was the right decision to move him on 

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58 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

He always had one good game for us each season so that's it now for Swansea. With regards to King and James and don't forget Simpson, it starts to look like Nige looking after old mates with one last pay cheque. I would prefer Pack and Smith any time.

Thats bollocks, he's not Joey Barton. He is trying to create a different culture and has clearly brought in players that can set an example for that.  James in particular has been excellent in most games especially with the right players around him.

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7 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Thats bollocks, he's not Joey Barton. He is trying to create a different culture and has clearly brought in players that can set an example for that.  James in particular has been excellent in most games especially with the right players around him.

There was so much nonsense in that post I didn’t know where to even start.

Firstly whilst I would have kept Pack, we got £4m for him, his replacements in a totally different transfer environment post Covid were both free transfers.

Smith was injury prone in his last 2 years with us & managed only 22 starts for Swansea last season, but why let facts get in the way, eh?

Paterson’s “one good game a season” has seen him so far score 4 & have 3 assists in 12 games, so someone needs to learn to count.

Simpson is probably on half what Hunt was, so although I remain to be convinced, that is why we signed him.

Saying James was signed as a “mate” is probably one of the stupidest things I have read on here in ages & that’s saying something.

King has been covered already, he was signed as cover, wasn’t expecting to play as often as he has & whilst he wasn’t great on Saturday he won’t let us down & loves the club.

The entire post was, on reflection, utter horseshit.

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17 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Korey wasn’t dependable week in week out as he was often out injured - hence why not was the right decision to move him on 

Different opinions I guess... Prior to the big injury, was he injured often? I don't think he was. Obviously you can't ignore the big injury but I think it's circumstantial 

I see koreys availability at Swansea being evidence that he was one of the victims of Dr death (Andy Rolls). 

Before Rolls' shambles attempt at koreys rehab, he was probably playing more than 90% of our games, and he was one of the few players to immediately step up to championship level imho. 

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12 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Thats bollocks, he's not Joey Barton. He is trying to create a different culture and has clearly brought in players that can set an example for that.  James in particular has been excellent in most games especially with the right players around him.

Exactly. And it's equally unfair to Paterson, who gets some quite outrageous stick on here. He's a regular starter for Swansea and has already had a series of good performances to his credit, to judge from the reports I've read. An outstanding goal and two assists on Saturday. What does he have to do before some people will recognise his abilities and give him credit for being the talented player that he is - walk on water? While he was here, regardless of whether he was fit or in form, he was, for me, probably the best footballer at the club and I am not in the least surprised that he's had a successful beginning to his time with his new club.

We've lost four big players from our midfield in the last couple of years. Brownhill was always going to a higher level and there was nothing we could do to prevent that, but we chose to move on Pack, Smith and now Pato and, whilst I'm not necessarily saying I'd have them back now, I did disagree with every one of those decisions at the time they were made. 

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I'd have liked us to have kept Paterson if possible. He's good technically and has good versatility. Sooner him than Palmer eg

As for other bits. 2 vs 3 in CM will generally see a side overrun, especially vs a superior side. I can understand the reservations about Bakinson but Wells for Williams just solidified Bournemouth's advantage in this area IMO.

King I don't think was supposed to have played as much as he has by now. He's done okay but I saw him as more of a squad player when signed.

James has done fine but we really need  a consistent run of him alongside Massengo and Williams I think. That feels like our optimum midfield. Lack of goals perhaps the big question.

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5 hours ago, headhunter said:

With everyone salivating over Jamie Patterson's performance yesterday

I'm not. He's crap.

Our problem is we didn't let him go earlier.

Both James and King have done well to date. Their 'game' goes under the radar for those fickle City fans who rate running and pointing above contribution.

City's problem is lack of midfield creativity with sod all upfront. Paterson didn't provide creativity when he was here, neither did any of the other half dozen or more Johnson acolytes in his likeness.

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Yes, but a striker is more important as we haven't one of those on the books.

Problem, however, is despite Pearson's best efforts to date we've still a vast squad of rubbish, so I'm not sure there's much wriggle room to purchase new talent. Hopefully we might sneak in one or two better quality players on loan.

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1 hour ago, Bernard Lerring said:

Different opinions I guess... Prior to the big injury, was he injured often? I don't think he was. Obviously you can't ignore the big injury but I think it's circumstantial 

I see koreys availability at Swansea being evidence that he was one of the victims of Dr death (Andy Rolls). 

Before Rolls' shambles attempt at koreys rehab, he was probably playing more than 90% of our games, and he was one of the few players to immediately step up to championship level imho. 

Korey picked up an ankle injury in 15/16 and like a warrior played through it, because he was (as you say) one of the players that adjusted to the Champ really quickly.  He was vital to our season.

15/16 - 36 apps, missed final 2 because of a red card….missed a batch just after LJ joined as he tried to rest his ankle.

16/17 - 23 apps, missed a lot of games early season, came back, got injured again.  Came back for the run-in as we got away from relegation.

17/18 - 45 apps, fantastic that season, all his injury woes behind him.

18/19 - 5 apps, out for a very long period, came back, 2nd game went into a tackle, slipped and did his foot / ankle.  Probably lucky to not get a red card, but he did slip. Given an extended contract on same terms at Xmas that year to give him peace of mind and not rush his recovery.

19/20 - 22 apps, missed most of the first half of the season, contract expired.

49 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Exactly. And it's equally unfair to Paterson, who gets some quite outrageous stick on here. He's a regular starter for Swansea and has already had a series of good performances to his credit, to judge from the reports I've read. An outstanding goal and two assists on Saturday. What does he have to do before some people will recognise his abilities and give him credit for being the talented player that he is - walk on water? While he was here, regardless of whether he was fit or in form, he was, for me, probably the best footballer at the club and I am not in the least surprised that he's had a successful beginning to his time with his new club.

We've lost four big players from our midfield in the last couple of years. Brownhill was always going to a higher level and there was nothing we could do to prevent that, but we chose to move on Pack, Smith and now Pato and, whilst I'm not necessarily saying I'd have them back now, I did disagree with every one of those decisions at the time they were made. 

Best player technically without doubt.

Sometimes felt like he was in a bit of a comfort zone, but not as inconsistent as people made out.  Scored his goals / got his assists at a consistent rate.

Letting Pack go was the right deal financially, but awful timing from a football side.  It proved that succession planning was non-existent.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Letting Pack go was the right deal financially, but awful timing from a football side.  It proved that succession planning was non-existent.

Absolutely spot-on. It was an opportunist deal in response to an unexpected and financially attractive offer. My impression at the time was that the player did not want to leave the club, nor did LJ particularly want to lose him.

It had Ashton's finger prints all over it. Improved the bank balance, near-fatally weakened the midfield, especially when the other departures mentioned above are taken into consideration.

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12 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Absolutely spot-on. It was an opportunist deal in response to an unexpected and financially attractive offer. My impression at the time was that the player did not want to leave the club, nor did LJ particularly want to lose him.

It had Ashton's finger prints all over it. Improved the bank balance, near-fatally weakened the midfield, especially when the other departures mentioned above are taken into consideration.

Yes, I know someone who posts on here who would know for sure….and he agrees with you.

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1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

Exactly. And it's equally unfair to Paterson, who gets some quite outrageous stick on here. He's a regular starter for Swansea and has already had a series of good performances to his credit, to judge from the reports I've read. An outstanding goal and two assists on Saturday. What does he have to do before some people will recognise his abilities and give him credit for being the talented player that he is - walk on water? While he was here, regardless of whether he was fit or in form, he was, for me, probably the best footballer at the club and I am not in the least surprised that he's had a successful beginning to his time with his new club.

We've lost four big players from our midfield in the last couple of years. Brownhill was always going to a higher level and there was nothing we could do to prevent that, but we chose to move on Pack, Smith and now Pato and, whilst I'm not necessarily saying I'd have them back now, I did disagree with every one of those decisions at the time they were made. 

I wonder if you would have agreed with moving them on if you knew who we would get as replacements

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I like James but i'm not going over the top regarding his performances to date, as others have.

However the main problem for him, and for all of our other midfielders is the lack of options upfront. They don't have a target man to hit, they don't have a quick striker who is looking to play off the shoulder and they don't have wide men who hug the touchline demanding the ball. Therefore when looking forward there options are fairly non existant!

Brian Tinnion is my favourite City player of years gone by, but even he will admit that Scott Murray made his job easy at times by constantly making clever runs and using his pace.

Whilst i acknowledge this is a rebuild, the old saying "attack is the best form of defence" would be worth remembering!

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1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm not. He's crap.

Our problem is we didn't let him go earlier.

Both James and King have done well to date. Their 'game' goes under the radar for those fickle City fans who rate running and pointing above contribution.

City's problem is lack of midfield creativity with sod all upfront. Paterson didn't provide creativity when he was here, neither did any of the other half dozen or more Johnson acolytes in his likeness.

Anyone who can’t see how good James is should really watch the game properly. It’s pretty clear.  For anyone to say should we expect more from him after one bad game is bizarre 

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