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Nottingham Forest at home match day thread


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43 minutes ago, lenred said:

And had a shit load of money to replace them with, which apart from Webster he and Ashton screwed up.
 

Hence the absolute mess we are now in - just about being able to scrape the pennies from down the back of the sofa to buy a fullback from Carlisle for £350k. It’s not comparing like for like or anywhere near it. 

How much did he bring in in transfer fees compared to the amount he spent on replacements ?

 

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2 hours ago, Rob k said:

Is is NP fault that’s Scott puts a shot wide from 5 yards out? Stats only tell a small part of the story. 

Funny then that Cooper's turned Forest around because he famously is a data driven man.

Given there's so much money riding on such matters these days the data isn't often wrong. Several rose-tinted here have referenced their keeper saving Wells shot on target for our goal, save it wasn't, it was going wide. Having seen the replay I'm not convinced their keeper touched Wells shot against the post either (there's no noticeable deflection) and as the officials were closer than I I've no reason to think they got it wrong. Given there was no perceived deflection the shot wouldn't have registered on target anyway given it hit the post.

You are correct in stating stats do not tell the whole story. In the case of the front 3 if they, too, recorded poor and badly controlled touches plus 'taking the wrong option', that the front 3 are an utter waste of space wouldn't be in doubt.

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1 hour ago, johnheadbcfc said:

Think Weimann needs a spell out of the starting 11, as soon as he gets the ball you just know its gonna go wrong.

 

1 hour ago, bexhill reds said:

I think Wiemann brings pace, clearly useful for the press, plus intelligent running into space, perhaps too intelligent for those playing the balls forward. What he’s not so good at though is holding onto the ball especially centrally and slightly deeper, that role really does not suit him.

I'm often critical of Weimann but I though he did lots of good work last night. But there was one moment that really encapsulated Weimann: he picked the ball up in defence and drove forward. He escaped a challenge and drove into the opposition half. He's taken it from defence to attack with real positive intent and then...he can't make his mind up what to do and is easily tackled. Sums him up completely.

51 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Only part of a reason why they got the ball into the position they did to win the penalty. 

I think we were playing kind of a 5311 by the end with Palmer in behind O'Dowda. But Palmer occasionally went central left and kind of made it 541. Just seemed like too much room on our left, as Weimann took up a wide right position and no one on the left side in a similar role protecting Dasilva.

Palmer and O'Dowda going to the player with the ball and an easy pass into the Forest player who then had plenty of time to pick his pass.

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Massengo could come but really its something O'Dowda and Palmer have to do better at together. 

 

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The biggest mistake was this though of course! Baker got away with one first half where he needlessly went to ground and got a toe to the ball before their player hit the post. And this time again it was poorly judged. He did some good bits of defending, but he has always had a mistake in him. 

It was painful watching those final 10 or so minutes. On Baker again, he for some reason with just minutes left at 1-0 up kicked a ball out of play when there was an easy pass to Massengo right next to him in space. He also headed a ball out for a throw when it looked like he could have nodded it to one of our players. Giving away possession when no need to is frustrating. Just invites more pressure.

Massengo was a bit sloppy givoing the ball away twice. Once a heavy touch when dribbling, and another time a pass down the line, but if he'd looked up then O'Dowda was stationary wanting it to feet. 

At one point as they had the ball on our left and we had 9 outfield players in our box and Weimann running up top out of the picture, our team stood and no one engaged assuming their player was going to put the ball in first time. So he dribbled towards our box and then we had to engage, luckily putting in a poor overhit cross. Things like that show a lack of cohesion.

Palmer looked a bit lost imo. He lacks game intelligence which Pearson has said himself. Things like O'Dowda pressing their player down the right channel, Palmer cutting out the goalkeeper as a back pass option, all spot on up till then. So the player has to chip it down the line where Weimann heads it towards Palmer now in a striker position. Palmer had not thought about getting back into an onside position and in a position to receive a ball if we won back possession and commits a foul. Might not seem a big thing but all these little things is what means we can't keep possession.

On O'Dowda, he didnt really do anything that actually worked, but he could have been played in on goal twice. Once Dasilva attempted to pass to feet when O'Dowda had started to make a run and would have been in with loads of space behind to attack. Would have been quite a simple chipped ball, though would have meant Dasilva using his right foot!

And another time O'Dowda made the defender think he wanted a ball by Weimann down the line, and once his movement had dragged his defender towards the touchline then O'Dowda had created space for a change of direction and a ball over the top for him to be away. Weimann thought O'Dowda wanted it the way he was initially going down the line and possession was lost.

I wonder if it would have been better to have gone 442 with Weimann and O'Dowda pressing together up top. Bring Pring on instead of Palmer. I think we looked a bit all over the place, though generally we did defend our box well until those final crazy moments. At least with the 442 it's more simple for the players to know their roles and might have helped defend our wide areas better. 

I think back to Swansea away win last season, and how at 2-1 up Swansea struggled to get the ball near our goal. Wouldn't it be better to have better pressure in attacking areas. Weimann still had loads of energy and we know he prefers counter attacking when up top. I think back to O'Dowda and Watkins playing up top at the end of the Boro 3-1 win and really helping relieve pressure. Pressing well and giving them something to worry about.

At that point it is all about finding ways to stop the pressure. Our way seems to be defend our box and look unorganised in front of it and poor in possession. Well that could have worked fine, and has in the past plenty of times. But you have to be spot on defending the box and also sometimes rely on that bit of luck. If Tanner didnt play so well then we would have conceded earlier than we did I am sure. And going by this season we seem to panic defending when trying to see out a win.

 

I understand that NP wanted some attacking outlets on the pitch, but I don't see how Palmer and O'Dowda come on with Pring sitting on the bench. Pring has not only the defensive understanding as well as an ability to carry the ball forward.

Surely we needed JD and Pring on the left, with Tanner and Weimann on the right?! 

My only gripe with Pearson so far is that I often don't understand his substitutions. 

I do sympathise with NP having such a bunch of misfits to work with, but I also think he makes some odd decisions during games, most notably making subs mid 1st half, but also bringing Wells on to play out wide when we have better wide options or leaving tired legs on and making changes elsewhere.

Edited by mozo
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14 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

No I wasn't, I asked the question but no reply,

 

Perhaps the reason nobody bothered to reply is you signally appear ignorant of the fact that transfer fees comprise a minor percentage of the overall liability incurred when signing a player.

Those 67 or so didn't play for nothing and that's why the Johnson/Ashton folly continues to bring this club to its knees.

And if you still need the answer, I suggest you look at the holding accounts, in particular those shortly to be published.

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25 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

How much did he bring in in transfer fees compared to the amount he spent on replacements ?

 

@Davefevs answered this far more accurately than I could just the other day: 

Lee spent £59m on transfer fees alone in 8 Windows (and one emergency loan period), let alone loan fees, agent fees, signing on fees, and wage bill increase.  He brought in really good fees for a small number of players.  In fairness he did have to build the squad up a bit as Cotts was running it on a shoestring.

The wage bill went up every season.  The lowest season spend was £9.7m!

Nige is working under a new remit, already cut costs by £10-12m.  
 

Why do you and others just not get the difference? Crazy. 

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2 minutes ago, mozo said:

He's taken it from defence to attack with real positive intent and then...he can't make his mind up what to do and is easily tackled.

I'm Flappy's biggest critic, not difficult given he's vastly overrated and contributes little, but here I think you're a tad harsh on him. At the end of his run he had sod all options going for him, was surrounded by opposition and was running out of puff. Were he any good he'd have suddenly decelerated, taken a false step and allowed the bloke chasing to nudge into him, conning for a free kick. Contact though isn't Flappy's game and he tries all out to avoid it.

His dithering choice selection however, you're spot on with that.

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There is a tactical, game awareness fault line in our play which allows teams again and again to get in on our box unopposed. When the ball is brought forward and developed down one flank we completely overload that side and a simple ball that switches the play leaves us completely exposed. It’s happened a lot this season

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30 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Perhaps the reason nobody bothered to reply is you signally appear ignorant of the fact that transfer fees comprise a minor percentage of the overall liability incurred when signing a player.

Those 67 or so didn't play for nothing and that's why the Johnson/Ashton folly continues to bring this club to its knees.

And if you still need the answer, I suggest you look at the holding accounts, in particular those shortly to be published.

I have my answer, thank you.

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43 minutes ago, mozo said:

 

I'm often critical of Weimann but I though he did lots of good work last night. But there was one moment that really encapsulated Weimann: he picked the ball up in defence and drove forward. He escaped a challenge and drove into the opposition half. He's taken it from defence to attack with real positive intent and then...he can't make his mind up what to do and is easily tackled. Sums him up completely.

I understand that NP wanted some attacking outlets on the pitch, but I don't see how Palmer and O'Dowda come on with Pring sitting on the bench. Pring has not only the defensive understanding as well as an ability to carry the ball forward.

Surely we needed JD and Pring on the left, with Tanner and Weimann on the right?! 

My only gripe with Pearson so far is that I often don't understand his substitutions. 

I do sympathise with NP having such a bunch of misfits to work with, but I also think he makes some odd decisions during games, most notably making subs mid 1st half, but also bringing Wells on to play out wide when we have better wide options or leaving tired legs on and making changes elsewhere.

I'd actually have had Weimann down the middle with O'Dowda pressing as a 2. Ideally we really needed Williams to be fit enough to at least make the bench to come on.

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12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Apologies, I didn’t realise you were only talking about home games - football seasons tend to include a fair amount of away games too so I was looking at the season as a whole ... keep the faith! 👍✌️🍷

I’ve not lost faith (speaking about NP here) and I know we play away games.

But the fact we have a tendency to try and sit on leads (however slim) at home, and have repeatedly capitulated in those games isn’t a great sign of improvement.

Make that mistake once; I’ll accept it is nerves/unfortunate. Twice; it is something to work and focus on in training. Three times; it’s a trend and it’s concerning we’ve not resolved it.

I’m not panicking; I never expected this season to be painless/easy. But I did hope we’d at least be learning and progressive in our performances; very little evidence of that last night.

Edited by samo II
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1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm Flappy's biggest critic, not difficult given he's vastly overrated and contributes little, but here I think you're a tad harsh on him. At the end of his run he had sod all options going for him, was surrounded by opposition and was running out of puff. Were he any good he'd have suddenly decelerated, taken a false step and allowed the bloke chasing to nudge into him, conning for a free kick. Contact though isn't Flappy's game and he tries all out to avoid it.

His dithering choice selection however, you're spot on with that.

Yeah I get that view, but I thought he had loads of opportunity to just slow down, turn back a touch and look for a pass but in my opinion he went scampering off like a cockapoo with a stick in it's mouth and then realised he'd run into a brick wall.

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5 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

Not immediately comparable, I like the idea of challenging conceptions and trying new ideas, perhaps LJ might have worked out under a different operational model and without the influence of an all encompassing CEO, who’s to know. I’d love to read whatever book he brings out which covers his time here.

Ironically I think the cup run ruined Johnson’s best chance, as if my memory is right, did we not play Wolves just before Xmas with the chance of going top and then after that once the cup run was over we went into free fall.

the situation now needs football experience and someone who understands the footballing side from top to bottom and someone not previously connected with the running of the club bringing in a level of objectivity we’ve not had for a while…

Interesting post, agree with good chunks of it.

However the Wolves scenario, was more the case that we beat Wolves and that really puts the pressure on them, not just from us but the chasing pack- and sees our confidence soar. As it was, that win meant they had one foot in the PL- we all saw their reaction at the end, just how huge that was for not just us but both sides.

That scenario. Going into Christmas ie the last game before Boxing Day we were pushing for 2nd but Wolves were 10 pts above us.

Wolves go to Millwall and draw, we beat Reading on Boxing Day.

If we then beat Wolves under the lights- as we should have- we go into 2018 in 2nd, while they will have seen their lead halve in a week! Manager and players although of a high level not used to the English game, the hectic winter period- this opens it up not just for us but for a lot of sides.

Especially with a) A lot of the chasing pack to play Monday and Tuesday before Wolves have a tricky home game v Brentford on the Wednesday and b) Wolves and the 2nd half of the season schedule containing trips to Aston Villa, Cardiff and Fulham to name 3.

Tricky trips to sides like Barnsley (struggling but tricky) Mick's Ipswich and Preston during the winter months as well- yes the pressure is on, Middlesbrough away quite late in the season as well.

While for us, it gives us a very healthy lead over the chasing pack for a top 6 finish, and the confidence goes up several notches.

After that Wolves game, I thought we showed flashes. Only flashes however.

Wolves winning in that manner was a big blow however and for them it gave them an 11 point lead over us, which is a significant margin for error and they were right back on track.

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4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

At risk of incurring the wrath of those who incorrectly believe there's something worth persisting with with Wells, his shot, parried by the keeper, was going wide. Our 2nd shot on target was Flappy's tame header easily mopped up by their keeper early doors, though so weak as easy to miss.

Wells, like Martin, again registered zero shots on target, but no surprises there.

Could you explain the respectable and at times excellent record Wells had at QPR? Granted they played with quite a lot of creativity in his time there...

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45 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could you explain the respectable and at times excellent record Wells had at QPR? Granted they played with quite a lot of creativity in his time there...

Didn't see him play much with them so, no, I couldn't comment.

I have seen enough of him with us though and am frankly amazed at the record he has, which appears far better than his contribution (sic) deserves.

But you're one for stats. It's not necessarily what he's done but what one might expect him to have done given the opportunities provided. Ok he receives scant service but when he does get quality ball he squanders more than he should. He creates little for himself or others.

I struggle to identify what his game is. It certainly isn't based on pace as he has none, nor combativeness as he lacks that, or aerial prowess or an ability to hold the ball up. As demonstrated many times this year his first touch us woeful (just look at his first chance last night when clear through he failed to keep it to feet and was easily dispossessed.)

But the true question is is he worth perseveringly with, is he capable of leading us to recovery? Pearson appears to hold a similar opinion to me in the answer to that question is NO.

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1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

Didn't see him play much with them so, no, I couldn't comment.

I have seen enough of him with us though and am frankly amazed at the record he has, which appears far better than his contribution (sic) deserves.

But you're one for stats. It's not necessarily what he's done but what one might expect him to have done given the opportunities provided. Ok he receives scant service but when he does get quality ball he squanders more than he should. He creates little for himself or others.

I struggle to identify what his game is. It certainly isn't based on pace as he has none, nor combativeness as he lacks that, or aerial prowess or an ability to hold the ball up. As demonstrated many times this year his first touch us woeful (just look at his first chance last night when clear through he failed to keep it to feet and was easily dispossessed.)

But the true question is is he worth perseveringly with, is he capable of leading us to recovery? Pearson appears to hold a similar opinion to me in the answer to that question is NO.

I think in terms of sides with more creativity around him, he can produce better- his record there with Eze and Osayi-Samuel and at times Chair all in the side was good.

His record with us prior to this season wasn't too bad. You sai this about his all-round game or lack of, yes he can get some goals but he has contributed assist wise albeit not really this season, Forest Green away.

FWIW I wasn't pro signing Wells in Jan 2020, I would have preferred Vydra from Burnley as part of that deal. I think he deserves a go though, if only because Martin if we overplay him will burn out and may eventually get injured.

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Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

think he deserves a go though, if only because Martin if we overplay him will burn out and may eventually get injured.

Shouldn't that read '...deserves TO go...'?

Martin 'burning out'? That assumes he's at sone stage on fire and there's zero chance of that happening. An ability to detect if Martin is injured is surely up there with 'the sound of one hand clapping' or 'Schrodinger's Cat's existence'. How might one determine?

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29 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Shouldn't that read '...deserves TO go...'?

Martin 'burning out'? That assumes he's at sone stage on fire and there's zero chance of that happening. An ability to detect if Martin is injured is surely up there with 'the sound of one hand clapping' or 'Schrodinger's Cat's existence'. How might one determine?

He's been in and out of the side.

Last season, when we played Martin the more he played the less effective he got. He's a player who IMO needs to be managed carefully over a season especially as he is now over 30- Derby under Cocu in 2019/20 showed this to be the case. As for the here and now, 3 goals and 1 assist away from home thusfar, less so at home granted- although I've just watched the highlights back and he got the flick on for the goal. Martin to Wells- Wells shot- saved/parried, Scott scored.

Wells- last season he got 10 goals and 3 assists. Now nobody would say that is spectacular but 36 starts, and 10 sub appearances- it's about 1 in 3.5 in terms of total contribution to the side- not spectacular but better than now. Averaged 66 mins per game, pro-rata that improves matters a bit more. I think him and Weimann in the right setup could linkup well, for certain games.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He's been in and out of the side.

Last season, when we played Martin the more he played the less effective he got. He's a player who IMO needs to be managed carefully over a season- Derby under Cocu in 2019/20 showed this to be the case. 3 goals and 1 assist away from home thusfar, less so at home granted- although I've just watched the highlights back and he got the flick on for the goal. Martin to Wells- Wells shot- saved/parried, Scott scored.

Sorry fella, but if we're at the stage of praising Martin for winning a header we are in dire straits. What about those he doesn't win, never gets near winning, or even gets into a position to win? Spent most of last night 30 yards out, back to goal failing to gain or control possession.

Saturday he threw a strop when their defender went straight over his head, him having stood still, feet planted to turf making no effort to go for the header. The ref made clear to him if he's not going for it then the defender has every right to go over him. He responded by petulantly pushing his marker in the back at the next challenge, again planted to floor and making no effort to compete. Cheap free kick and his opponent made clear he thought to have him in his pocket. He was right.

The one header he should have buried, centre goal, uncontested, on a plate. Powder puff doesn't touch the sides.

Martin needs managing all right - out the door.

 

 

Edited by BTRFTG
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30 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Sorry fella, but if we're at the stage of praising Martin for winning a header we are in dire straits. What about those he doesn't win, never gets near winning, or even gets into a position to win? Spent most of last night 30 yards out, back to goal failing to gain or control possession.

Saturday he threw a strop when their defender went straight over his head, him having stood still, feet planted to turf making no effort to go for the header. The ref made clear to him if he's not going for it then the defender has every right to go over him. He responded by petulantly pushing his marker in the back at the next challenge, again planted to floor and making no effort to compete. Cheap free kick and his opponent made clear he thought to have him in his pocket. He was right.

The one header he should have buried, centre goal, uncontested, on a plate. Powder puff doesn't touch the sides.

Martin needs managing all right - out the door.

 

 

Again, I think he's being overplayed. At Derby in 2019/20, they let him build up carefullyt for a couple of months, until mid-late September and then used him carefully thereafter. He retained his fitness and was effective.

What we do is play him from the start week in, week out and then are surprised when he gets steadily less effective- got a goal v Blackpool, and a goal and assist v Reading- okay since then it's only the goals at QPR and Peterborough. Hitting out long isn't a great tactic either but he's better holdup wise etc than Diedhiou IMO.

I think he needs a rest.

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