A tinge of doubt creeping in

[Tin Soldier]

The club has been/still is a basket case. All the mistakes made over the last 3 years have come home to roost. NP will need a minor miracle to turn it around. Who is going to buy players Bristol City don’t want? Anything decent has been sold.

[westonred]

We are still suffering from a weak squad of players that were here before Pearson took charge players like COD Palmer Martin Vyner they are all taking up wages and offer us very little (ok Martin plays often but is bang average) then we have to rely on a batch of youngsters who should really be out on loan elsewhere at the moment.  SL needs to put his hand in his pocket as we need Two Strikers Two Wide Men and a Creative Midfielder all with championship quality This buy now sell in the future at a profit policy we have is for the future, we need to sort this problem NOW

When NP can bring in who he wants/needs we can judge him then 

[CyderInACan]

9 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Not expecting much at WBA but Barnsley at home on the 30th feels like we really need a win. They've only won one game all season, so far. 

Nailed on away win then . . .

[petehinton]

9 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Ryan Lowe was the man we should have got, but he wasn’t a big enough name for most on here.

His record speaks for himself. 

The same one who was massively struggling in January of this year and finished 18th in league one?

Doing a great job now but there’s no way he could’ve come in in January when Holden got binned. Would’ve been a huge risk

[Northern Red]

9 minutes ago, petehinton said:

The same one who was massively struggling in January of this year and finished 18th in league one?

Doing a great job now but there’s no way he could’ve come in in January when Holden got binned. Would’ve been a huge risk

Yep. Same as the suggestion of Russell Martin the other day. It'll be someone else by the weekend.

[BS4 on Tour...]

10 hours ago, Sturny said:

He couldn’t do that at the past 3 clubs so why are we any special/different ?

Because he wasn’t given anywhere near enough time to turn anything around at those clubs ... 14 games as Derby boss - do you think that’s enough time?

[2015]

Lee Johnson like his Father left Dean Holden and Nigel Pearson a rather bloated squad full of pretty average players at best at this level. Again, it's going to take a few years for it to be turned around, but I'd much rather a Nigel Pearson in charge doing it than some yes man to SL or an inexperienced manager.

The Home form is terrible no one is disputing that, but it has been for a rather long time. We play very vertically, no one willing to break the lines, no one comfortable enough to keep possession for spells in the game - Which has also been the case for the last 2/3 years. This is why we are so bad at home, we can get away with it away as we can play on the break and teams give us more time on the ball.

We need pace in the side and we need a few clever heads who know how to use the ball well and kill games off without having to sit back for 30+ minutes

[Fordy62]

42 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Lee Johnson like his Father left Dean Holden and Nigel Pearson a rather bloated squad full of pretty average players at best at this level. Again, it's going to take a few years for it to be turned around, but I'd much rather a Nigel Pearson in charge doing it than some yes man to SL or an inexperienced manager.

The Home form is terrible no one is disputing that, but it has been for a rather long time. We play very vertically, no one willing to break the lines, no one comfortable enough to keep possession for spells in the game - Which has also been the case for the last 2/3 years. This is why we are so bad at home, we can get away with it away as we can play on the break and teams give us more time on the ball.

We need pace in the side and we need a few clever heads who know how to use the ball well and kill games off without having to sit back for 30+ minutes

Summary:

Not Callum O’Dowda. 

[LoyalRed]

11 hours ago, Dredd said:

Pearson isn’t the problem imo it’s the mess of a squad he’s inherited and lack of budget to address it

Pearson's CV is strong enough to get a win at home by now though.

[Kibs]

12 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I still think he's probably the best person available to turn this mess around, and let's be honest it was a huge mess. Our league position flattered us last season and Pearson was quite right in saying that had the season gone on another 10 games we'd have gone down.

However, it's not just his record here: played 28, won 6, drawn 8, lost 14.

It's Watford: played 22, won 7, drawn 5, lost 10

It's Leuven: played 56, won 18, drawn 15, lost 23

It's Derby: played 14, won 3, drawn 5, lost 6

Those appointments span the last 6+ years and in each job he's lost more games than he's won. I haven't totalled it, but I'm guessing Pearson's last 120 games or so in charge of a football club wouldn't make for pretty reading. There's about 34 wins there I think.

There is a nagging doubt in my mind as to whether we've got this manager in too late and his best years, which were at Leicester 2011-15, starting over 10 years ago, are behind him. 

I agree. Was going to start a similar thread myself.

My doubt is not necessarily just around Pearson either. I know he has a very difficult job on his hands and that he has done a great job behind the scenes in terms of bringing everybody together, but I'm starting to have a little nagging doubt around what is happening on the training ground.

What really frustrates me is that whilst performances have been slightly better than last season (lets be honest, the only way was up), after 28 games and a pre-season behind him, I STILL have no idea as to what sort of team we are trying to become. What do we spend each day working towards?

You look at most teams in the Championship, and you know what you are going to get whether it is high intensity, high press, physical/direct, looking to moving the ball through the thirds etc.....but City under Pearson, I STILL have absolutely no idea. It's like it's just left to the players.

We are just so passive. It's still seems like we are going out with no game plan at all and no long term direction of working towards a consistent way of playing. I'm by no means saying that this should be in place now, but there should at least be some signs of what sort of team we are trying to become. How can you even recruit properly if you don't know what you want to be?

Pearson has stated on a number of occasions that he see's himself as somebody who "Manages people", and not necessarily someone who coaches. That concerned me a little the first time I heard it.

The team have lacked direction and intent on the pitch for so long, so with the same people coaching (other than Fleming), we probably shouldn't be surprised that we are seeing the same failings on the pitch. 

[Sturny]

2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Because he wasn’t given anywhere near enough time to turn anything around at those clubs ... 14 games as Derby boss - do you think that’s enough time?

Yeah sure he was given a short amount of time, it does tell a story. Maybe they didn't buy into his long project plan, but then you have to ask why hire him? And why did NP take the job? 

The question I'm wondering is if those clubs failed NP or NP failed at those clubs? I think the Derby job can be negated from that list because he left on mutual consent over the drones at training camps. 

And anyway you're making a strawman argument, so we're special because we're going to give him longer? 8 months already and cant sort out the home form. Maybe we're just the biggest fools out of those clubs.

I just want to go the gate again with high hopes of a fun game. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sturny

[Fuber]

12 hours ago, harrys said:

Are you joking, it could barely be worse, how come Cooper can go to Forest with just 1 point from 7 games and immediately turn it around yet Pearson cannot win a home game in 8 months, like Hughton and most of the older managers around they are way behind the times, I said in the summer that we missed a trick by not going for Cooper or the new Swansea manager

Forest have players with actual technical ability. As for the comparison with Hughton, sometimes it can be right manager right club and vice versa.

We, on the other hand, are left with tryers with no technical ability.

Of whom we barely have a hope of shifting.

Can thank MA for that.

[Gilli74]

3 hours ago, LoyalRed said:

Pearson's CV is strong enough to get a win at home by now though.

 

Should be … Holden still managed 7 home wins last season between sept and feb with arguably the same squad, in an empty stadium … can’t even say Fam was the difference as he only scored 10 all season …

Edited October 20, 2021 by Gilli74

[pillred]

51 minutes ago, Gilli74 said:

 

Should be … Holden still managed 7 home wins last season between sept and feb with arguably the same squad, in an empty stadium … can’t even say Fam was the difference as he only scored 10 all season …

He seems to be above all criticism to a lot of posters on here, it almost seems they can't believe we got a "big" name manager and don't want to be seen to moan, to me he is the emperors new clothes as you say Dean Holden derided and sacked for being useless had a better record. 

[The Bard]

I've no doubts. We're in a perfectly acceptable position imo. Where  most expected we'd be. 

 

We have to accept 2 seasons of mediocrity whilst contracts run out etc. Once he's had time to make the majority of players ones he actually wants we'll be stronger.  

Our recruitment has been pretty decent so far.  2 experienced shorter term signings plus 3 1st choice who represent a clear improvement on what was here. 

 

Another 6 signings like James Tanner and Atkinson with unwanted players leaving will make us much stronger. I think there's a clear idea about what we need which will make recruitment more successful. 

 

The immediate problem is psychological re our home form. We clearly deserve to have amassed more than 4 points from our performances but have butchered opportunities..

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, The Bard said:

 

Our recruitment has been pretty decent so far.  2 experienced shorter term signings plus 3 1st choice who represent a clear improvement on what was here. 

 

 

Tanner, Atkinson and James - successes. Simpson - failure. King - mixed.

We await further developments I'd say. 

The fact we lured a good young player like L2 and he was able to cut it instantly at this level is a promising sign.

[Dullmoan Tone]

16 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Ryan Lowe was the man we should have got, but he wasn’t a big enough name for most on here.

His record speaks for himself. 

The trouble with Lowe’s record - just like comparing Pearson at Leuven (?) is that he’s never managed or even perhaps played in the Championship.

I still think you mostly need experience of this division to get out of it, unless you have bottomless pockets or parachute payments. Lowe would have been and still would be a massive risk.

I would also worry his stature would not help us attract the quality loans we need to get up.

[Chicken George]

45 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Tanner, Atkinson and James - successes. Simpson - failure. King - mixed.

We await further developments I'd say. 

The fact we lured a good young player like L2 and he was able to cut it instantly at this level is a promising sign.

Why don’t people add baker and Weimann. They’d both expired their contracts and Pearson brought them back. They are his signings. 
Baker - failure, Weimann - mixed 

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

Why don’t people add baker and Weimann. They’d both expired their contracts and Pearson brought them back. They are his signings. 
Baker - failure, Weimann - mixed 

I didn't because the players I've mentioned were new to the club. Those two, simply a deadline expired and well before the playing season started we decided to re-sign. They never really left, apart from on paper. 

[Chicken George]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I didn't because the players I've mentioned were new to the club. Those two, simply a deadline expired and well before the playing season started we decided to re-sign. They never really left, apart from on paper. 

But they are still Pearson’s recruitment. 
If he didn’t want them he wouldn’t have resigned them and could have used their significant salaries elsewhere 

[brad blit]

8 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

Forest have better players than us on the grass.

I’ve seen so much hyperbole on OTIB in my time lurking in here.

‘We have a top 6 squad on paper’ is the classic.

We don’t. We made a massive charitable  donation to Chelsea, for three players who don’t perform at the levels they’re capable of. 

This is true for a lot of the squad.

Football isn’t played on paper, it’s played on grass.

I think that’s a little unfair on JD who is a quality left back at this level. Granted every player has bad games but in terms of ability he’s right up there for me. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Enter Sandman said:

But they are still Pearson’s recruitment. 
If he didn’t want them he wouldn’t have resigned them and could have used their significant salaries elsewhere 

 

If we include them I'd say on balance NB is of mixed use, but Andi is (on average) a success, although not always given his most effective role.

As others have said, we have to factor in the significant financial constraints Pearson faced. We didn't have resources perhaps to do much else. Better players might have required fees beyond that which were available. Those two didn't.

Although the Leicester old boys' club has been a decidedly mixed blessing, the signing of Tanner - a young, developing player - shows I hope the route we'll go down in future.

All said and done, I have more confidence in Pearson to bring in decent acquisitions than I did in Johnson or Holden. 

[Chicken George]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

If we include them I'd say on balance NB is of mixed use, but Andi is (on average) a success, although not always given his most effective role.

As others have said, we have to factor in the significant financial constraints Pearson faced. We didn't have resources perhaps to do much else. Better players might have required fees beyond that which were available. Those two didn't.

Although the Leicester old boys' club has been a decidedly mixed blessing, the signing of Tanner - a young, developing player - shows I hope the route we'll go down in future.

All said and done, I have more confidence in Pearson to bring in decent acquisitions than I did in Johnson or Holden. 

They are both to be considered as Pearson’s signings in my opinion. 
Based on what they’ve done this season, baker hasn’t done anything of any use and essentially lost us the game last night with his rash challenge and Weimann has had 2 decent games. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Did a strong job at Watford, harshly sacked- but there is an argument that they shouldn't have been rooted in the bottom 3 in the first place, but that's no reflection on him given what he inherted- his job there only reflects well on him in any case. Once they lost at West Ham the die was cast and it was always likely that matches vs Man City at home and Arsenal away would gain zero points, especially behind closed doors.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

They are both to be considered as Pearson’s signings in my opinion. 
Based on what they’ve done this season, baker hasn’t done anything of any use and essentially lost us the game last night with his rash challenge and Weimann has had 2 decent games. 

 

I'd argue that Baker had a fairly reasonable game prior to his clanger and even there, is not the only place blame must be apportioned.

Maybe it's because I was a defender, but I always look at the bigger picture than who had the last touch.

In Baker's defence you could ask: Why was our box so under siege? Why couldn't we make the ball stick upfield? Where was our midfield? Why couldn't we even carry the ball out of our half? Why were our subs not bringing the "fresh legs" to do this?  Why were Forest players able to play the ball at will around our final third?

The blame for all that lies with multiple players and, indeed, the coaching staff.

Let opponents swarm all over you and you're going to make a fatal mistake sooner or later. When the penalty went in, my matchday companion said: "They are going to go on to win this." We weren't surprised. For the last 15 minutes we'd look like a schoolboy team taking on the PE teachers. 

The blame for that involves more than one or two players.

[Southport Red]

NP signings

Very Good (at least potentially)

Atkinson

Tanner

James

Baker (apart from the pen, he was good last night)

 

OK

King

 

Jury's Out

Simpson

 

I still think he is the right man for the job but I appreciate that, as each home game goes by, my view gets just a little more difficult to justify.

[RedM]

9 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I get what you mean but - at the same time - I couldn’t actually tell you who I thought played badly last night. Baker had a disastrous last two minutes but, had the game finished on the ninety minute mark, I think we would have seen it as a decent, solid performance all around.

The issue for me isn’t player performances but the players we don’t have. We don’t have any pacy players, we don’t have any creative players, we don’t have a quality finisher and we’ve run Martin into the ground due to a lack of options to hold the ball up.  Plus the few options we have for running and impetus in midfield are either injured or recovering from injury.

I’m frustrated with how we are doing but - short of spending money that presumably is not there with FFP on players who may not have been available or attainable in the summer in any case - I don’t think any manager would find quick fixes.

Yes it’s really a strange one. Couldn’t fault the effort and yes Baker I thought generally had a good game overall.

I don’t meant this unfairly but I heard regarding injuries he has some kind of mental block in the past. Often he would take a knock and in his head he would immediately believe he couldn’t continue. This seems to have improved since to resigned for us as he seems to be completing more matches now. Just a hunch but maybe he had another mental block and made that rash challenge as the pressure of the lack of a home win got to him?

I can’t really explain what I mean but some players cope with pressure better than others. I’m not saying he should have been subbed, far from it, but the subs we did make didn’t appear to take the pressure off our mentally or physically tiring players. We have no impact subs, to quote rugby.

[Chicken George]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I'd argue that Baker had a fairly reasonable game prior to his clanger and even there, is not the only place blame must be apportioned.

Maybe it's because I was a defender, but I always look at the bigger picture than who had the last touch.

In Baker's defence you could ask: Why was our box so under siege? Why couldn't we make the ball stick upfield? Where was our midfield? Why couldn't we even carry the ball out of our half? Why were our subs not bringing the "fresh legs" to do this?  Why were Forest players able to play the ball at will around our final third?

The blame for all that lies with multiple players and, indeed, the coaching staff.

Let opponents swarm all over you and you're going to make a fatal mistake sooner or later. When the penalty went in, my matchday companion said: "They are going to go on to win this." We weren't surprised. For the last 15 minutes we'd look like a schoolboy team taking on the PE teachers. 

The blame for that involves more than one or two players.

None of which excuses lunging into a tackle in the penalty box in injury time. I agree, plenty more wrong with the goal than just that (how does JD let his man outside him so easily), but still no excuse for baker 

[supercidered]

17 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Ryan Lowe was the man we should have got, but he wasn’t a big enough name for most on here.

His record speaks for himself. 

Ryan Lowe's record speaks for himself or itself? Doesn't really matter.

I don't prescribe to the not 'big enough name' view either. Ryan Lowe has no track record in any league above League 1 and even then what makes him such a great choice?

Another untried (See Holden) option would be sinking without a trace right now in the current predicament City are in. More dead wood than Teignmouth beach still here even after the lot that have already gone. 

Yes things are pretty sh!te and yes I think that will continue for the rest of this season at least. It can't be all ripped up and started again because it has reached such a bad point that there is no way we as a club can buy our way out of this. 

The important thing is to stay up this year and I believe experience in the shape of NP will keep us up. Another Championship Rookie Manager / Management Team before NP's appointment would have been an utter disaster.

 

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, supercidered said:

Ryan Lowe's record speaks for himself or itself? Doesn't really matter.

I don't prescribe to the not 'big enough name' view either. Ryan Lowe has no track record in any league above League 1 and even then what makes him such a great choice?

Another untried (See Holden) option would be sinking without a trace right now in the current predicament City are in. More dead wood than Teignmouth beach still here even after the lot that have already gone. 

Yes things are pretty sh!te and yes I think that will continue for the rest of this season at least. It can't be all ripped up and started again because it has reached such a bad point that there is no way we as a club can buy our way out of this. 

The important thing is to stay up this year and I believe experience in the shape of NP will keep us up. Another Championship Rookie Manager / Management Team before NP's appointment would have been an utter disaster.

 

The problem is we can only attract one of three levels of manager:

1) A manager where the Championship is their level. 

2) A manager who has managed in the top flight but is now on their way down and may or may not get back up to where they once were.

3) A manager who not yet proven they are a top flight manager but will do so in the future.

All three come with risks.

The manager is category 1) is most likely to do a steady job but is unlikely to do more than that. Most 'journeyman' managers have their successes and failures so even that steady job is no guarantee. 

The manager is category 2) has succeeded in the past but may not have kept up with changes in the game or may not have the same appetite for success or finger on the pulse that they once have.

The manager in category is 3) is always going to be a risk but is where the reward is greatest. So too, however, is the possibility that - if it doesn't work out - it looks like a naive appointment.

Thomas Frank, Sean Dyche, Daniel Farke, Graham Potter, Brendan Rodgers (at Swansea) (at both Swansea and Brighton) and Dean Smith (at both Brentford and Villa) have all succeeded and now manage in the premier league but, had any of them failed, it would have been easy to have written the narrative as to why they were the wrong appointment and inexperienced managers and how their respective clubs could easily have avoided the mistakes they made in hiring them.

Ryan Lowe might never manage above League One level. Or he might get a job in the Championship and prove to be an absolute disaster. Or he might - just might - be yet another manager whose career overtakes ours and we wonder why we never offered him the role. All we know at the moment is that he wins matches, has two promotion on his CV and plays attractive football. We could decide he is too much of a gamble and let someone else give him the opportunity. They might find that gamble pays off or they might not. But, if that gamble does pay off, he'll be yet another manager where we'll only know he's good enough to manage us at a point when we've no longer any chance of recruiting him.