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Having just watched the highlights.


GrahamC
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6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

How do you know! The referee has the whistle, and they are communicating with him. They may be advising him on dozens of decisions for all we know.

Thats how it works nowadays.

@1960maaanworth watch this.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/9317262/collina-masterclass/more/13

Collina suggests the flags are mainly for the crowd now, and constant dialogue is going on instead.

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Watched the Scott reply many times on the sky sports highlights and could not tell 100% but think it looked a penalty. The reason the ref may not have give it, forest could have been moaning to the ref at half time about Scott going down so easy, which he does a lot and will have put doubt in the refs mind, any other player and I think he gives it. 

WTH was Baker thinking, experienced player and we had cover in the box

Definite handball for winner

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49 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Watched the Scott reply many times on the sky sports highlights and could not tell 100% but think it looked a penalty. The reason the ref may not have give it, forest could have been moaning to the ref at half time about Scott going down so easy, which he does a lot and will have put doubt in the refs mind, any other player and I think he gives it. 

WTH was Baker thinking, experienced player and we had cover in the box

Definite handball for winner

Thought Baker made a bad error sliding in first half too when not needing to and they hit the post.

I do like a centre back who likes to stay on their feet. Baker loves a sliding challenge doesn't he.

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33 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Thought Baker made a bad error sliding in first half too when not needing to and they hit the post.

I do like a centre back who likes to stay on their feet. Baker loves a sliding challenge doesn't he.

He was offside as well.

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34 minutes ago, jj77 said:

He was offside as well.

Although the camera angle doesn't show where Brennan Johnson was when the ball was played, by the time he is in the picture he is so slightly ahead of Atkinson, I would say he was probably level when the ball was played but impossible to see for sure. 

But either way Baker made a mistake there imo. With Atkinson coming to help too I don't think he needed to go to ground.

I have no problem with Baker sliding in like he did on Johnson at one point on the touchline to stop an attack from happening. But when he slides in and takes himself out of the game as someone is running towards our box on the break, or the foul where it was a desperate lunge against a quicker player in the box, he has to be told to stay on his feet more.

But at 30 years of age and always being someone who likes to go to ground I don't think he will change.

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19 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

We are Lansdown just outside of the area, while I shouted for a Pen my mate was sure it wasn't. The Ref signalled to the ball so I think he thought the defender got a touch, this would also explain why Scott wasn't booked. He may have thought there was contact after the tackle. .

 

The video is quite clear, the defender got nowhere near the ball and it was a clear trip.

Who knows what might've happened had we established that two goal lead. 

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15 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game 

The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening.

47FD96F7-025B-4FF0-85B4-3EB5B06CFB46.thumb.jpeg.29f8f1d43cdcef9f79bfc26b2f8eee2a.jpeg

Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down.  Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we?  Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back.

DC335C78-E429-4EE7-842E-0FFC6E481876.thumb.jpeg.f7639a896d8d023f9780aa32b404887a.jpeg

By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there).  James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda.  James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape.  O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on.

DA278A72-CA12-44F2-9439-8BC6C15B5847.thumb.jpeg.2c6463b7fbfda833b179622b7d4f68d3.jpeg

Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten.  Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann.  James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot.

C056C480-C052-4F53-A03C-B77E59D7EC78.thumb.jpeg.2490377ba369e5be0706f9da01eaea01.jpeg

Weimann has let his man gain yards on him.  James and Massengo getting back.  Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner.

A4ED12DF-66F7-451E-8BCF-60AB4CECEDFD.thumb.jpeg.df2d5b115435fb2fc3eb1d10ca2dbeba.jpeg

Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann.  O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be?

This kind of play happened too much.  This time it resulted in a goal.  Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third.  They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers.  I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking.

My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity.  But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc.  What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva.  Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield.

Here’s the equaliser.  It doesn’t need much commentary from me.

C46557EC-951F-4179-966C-E10329832D6B.thumb.jpeg.f5cedca86afedc5ecff7473dda131d7e.jpeg

 

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24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening.

47FD96F7-025B-4FF0-85B4-3EB5B06CFB46.thumb.jpeg.29f8f1d43cdcef9f79bfc26b2f8eee2a.jpeg

Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down.  Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we?  Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back.

DC335C78-E429-4EE7-842E-0FFC6E481876.thumb.jpeg.f7639a896d8d023f9780aa32b404887a.jpeg

By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there).  James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda.  James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape.  O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on.

DA278A72-CA12-44F2-9439-8BC6C15B5847.thumb.jpeg.2c6463b7fbfda833b179622b7d4f68d3.jpeg

Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten.  Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann.  James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot.

C056C480-C052-4F53-A03C-B77E59D7EC78.thumb.jpeg.2490377ba369e5be0706f9da01eaea01.jpeg

Weimann has let his man gain yards on him.  James and Massengo getting back.  Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner.

A4ED12DF-66F7-451E-8BCF-60AB4CECEDFD.thumb.jpeg.df2d5b115435fb2fc3eb1d10ca2dbeba.jpeg

Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann.  O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be?

This kind of play happened too much.  This time it resulted in a goal.  Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third.  They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers.  I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking.

My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity.  But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc.  What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva.  Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield.

Here’s the equaliser.  It doesn’t need much commentary from me.

C46557EC-951F-4179-966C-E10329832D6B.thumb.jpeg.f5cedca86afedc5ecff7473dda131d7e.jpeg

 

 

Seems to me an argument as why you bring on a fresh, untired striker near the end of games rather than midfielders with few defensive qualities.

Unfortunately, we didn't have that option on the bench. 

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6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Seems to me an argument as why you bring on a fresh, untired striker near the end of games rather than midfielders with few defensive qualities.

Unfortunately, we didn't have that option on the bench. 

Tis a very valid point.

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Also, we are possibly seeing a slight impact of going back to 3/7 subs rather than 5/9.  I actually think 7 is too many, but that’s another point.  But you are probably looking at:

- 1 gk, 1fb, 1cb, 1dm, 1am, 2fw

or something like that.

If you’re playing a back 3/5, you might go with one defender on the bench.

etc, etc.

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16 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game 

Been a problem from well before Pearson time here. 

Stems from not being able to defend from the front. This in turn is the result of not being able to maintain a pressing game - towards the latter stages of a game too many old legs can't maintain it - along with our struggle to keep hold of the ball at most stages of a game. Let alone at the death. 

I think we need players like Scott, Pring, Semenyo, HNM, Wells, Williams on the pitch to maintain a  decent press high up the pitch and to prevent opposition teams from building pressure so easily from the back. 

As for holding on to the ball, these are well aid professional footballers and I would have thought passing to a teammate and holding the ball up was a pretty basic requirement of that job! 

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What the highlights do not show is the build up to them getting runners into our box for the penalty.

20 seconds before just as the extra time gets announced on the tannoy, James wins the ball on the half-way line near the touch-line, passes 10 yards in field to Atkinson, who with nobody on him hoofs it into the stand level with half-way line. They then take quick throw and are running down our right flank. So:

1. Why did Atkinson do that?  Can only be because he knows time is running short and panics. Even then if he was intent on hoofing it into the stands why not send it out well back into their half, so he and James can get back in defensive position?

2. Why is James (our captain) not yelling at Atkinson to hold the ball (with no pressure on him)?  (maybe he did but I'll bet not)

If Atkinson uses his head and keeps possession and even does something radical like pass to a teammate - even if backwards, they never get to launch that raid down the right hand side and we go on to win the game. Odd thing is Atkinson is probably our best central defender with the ball at his feet, it can only be a mental think because we have this monkey on our back.

 

Edited by old_eastender
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49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening.

The first picture is an interesting one because you can make the argument either way. Either your back line needs to push up and not drop off like that or your midfield needs to be deeper and closer to the back line to stop the player being able to bring it down between the lines and get Notts running. 90th minute, you’re 1-0 up and knackered, I’d tend towards the latter. The problem there is it’s neither one thing nor the other, compounded by the fact there’s three players a few yards from each other in a vertical line rather than across the pitch, shape is all wrong.

The less said about the last picture the better. 

 

A lack of pace is always an issue and it’s so glaring when I watch you. It can get you up the pitch and it will always create doubt in the oppositions mind about how much they can push on. But also I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disappointed with Matty James judging by what I  read on here, doesn’t seem to get explicit criticism but a lot of the problems I read about Id expect less from a Championship side with Matty James in it. Maybe it’s unfair and what’s around him is a problem

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening.

Yep, this has been an issue for several seasons. I think there is a combination of Bentley not commanding his area and Kalas who seems to like to defend deep leading to us often ending up back in the 6 yard box.

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25 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

The first picture is an interesting one because you can make the argument either way. Either your back line needs to push up and not drop off like that or your midfield needs to be deeper and closer to the back line to stop the player being able to bring it down between the lines and get Notts running. 90th minute, you’re 1-0 up and knackered, I’d tend towards the latter. The problem there is it’s neither one thing nor the other, compounded by the fact there’s three players a few yards from each other in a vertical line rather than across the pitch, shape is all wrong.

The less said about the last picture the better. 

 

A lack of pace is always an issue and it’s so glaring when I watch you. It can get you up the pitch and it will always create doubt in the oppositions mind about how much they can push on. But also I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disappointed with Matty James judging by what I  read on here, doesn’t seem to get explicit criticism but a lot of the problems I read about Id expect less from a Championship side with Matty James in it. Maybe it’s unfair and what’s around him is a problem

Without seeing the play before the highlight started I can’t really say how we got into that shape, but it wasn’t from a goal-kick.  If it was I’d be horrified!!!

Pace is so important….it’s why the last few games Wells has featured we’ve had a different dimension and able to stretch them the other way!  A midfield with Williams and / or Massengo supporting James is different to Bakinson or King.  Until Bournemouth James has been pretty sound, good positioning, anticipation to press, etc. he looked sluggish on Saturday.  He was better on Tuesday, but a little exposed by Weimann and Scott being his partners, as their instincts are very different.

Looking into the future I can see Semenyo playing a part with Wells, whether that is part of a two or a three I don’t know.  At some point James, Massengo and Williams will start a game together.  With Tanner, Dasilva, Kalas forming some of the back line, we suddenly look a bit more pacy.

If we could get to something like this, I think we look very different.

Bentley

Tanner | Kalas | Atkinson or Baker | Dasilva

Williams | James | Massengo

Scott or Weimann | Wells | Semenyo

Not necessarily a 433, just laying out defenders, midfielders, attack-minded players.

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27 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Yep, this has been an issue for several seasons. I think there is a combination of Bentley not commanding his area and Kalas who seems to like to defend deep leading to us often ending up back in the 6 yard box.

Someone said to me that Kalas looks a better defender when he's facing his own goal, last gasp tackles and interceptions are his stock in trade. 
As a 3, we have 2 brilliant defenders that lead, but by example. Atkinson is an intelligent footballing centre back, but it is his debut season at this level. We could do with him being the voice, setting the line we defend at. Playing alongside an International, and a vastly experienced defender it's gonna be hard.
Bentley, with his build should dominate all his 18 yard box. He just isn't that type . He can , and has claimed good balls, but he's never going to dominate  I think he is just too much of a confidence player, and a drop could finish him in a game. He does seem to shout, but IMO the Captain shouldn't be the only person to lead. Anyone is capable , not everyone feels comfortable, in giving instruction. It's been said countless times, you can't see 180 degrees and you have to rely on shouts from team mates. It's a small step for someone to set the line you defend, or try and push them out.

Some of this should have come from the touchline. I wanted to see Flemming or Pearson or Simpson, whoever , screaming for us to push up 10-15 yards. 

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49 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

What the highlights do not show is the build up to them getting runners into our box for the penalty.

20 seconds before just as the extra time gets announced on the tannoy, James wins the ball on the half-way line near the touch-line, passes 10 yards in field to Atkinson, who with nobody on him hoofs it into the stand level with half-way line. They then take quick throw and are running down our right flank. So:

1. Why did Atkinson do that?  Can only be because he knows time is running short and panics. Even then if he was intent on hoofing it into the stands why not send it out well back into their half, so he and James can get back in defensive position?

2. Why is James (our captain) not yelling at Atkinson to hold the ball (with no pressure on him)?  (maybe he did but I'll bet not)

If Atkinson uses his head and keeps possession and even does something radical like pass to a teammate - even if backwards, they never get to launch that raid down the right hand side and we go on to win the game. Odd thing is Atkinson is probably our best central defender with the ball at his feet, it can only be a mental think because we have this monkey on our back.

 

Do you mean Baker's kick into touch when he could have played it square to Massengo or passed back to Atkinson?

There was a player coming from behind Baker but bloody hell I was furious when he kicked that out.

1-0 up with 40 seconds of normal time to play, Massengo was the pass to make and instead Baker chipped it quite gently into touch. Didnt even smash it high into the stands to waste some more valuable seconds! But really he should have been keeping possession. 20 seconds later Baker makes that foul giving away the pen.

Pass to Massengo in a good position we might have been able to counter space on the right. Getting possession down their end at 1-0 up entering injury time, you would then surely think we can at least get a point from here!

I assume that is what you mean because I did not see Atkinson kicking it out of play. 

 

57 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

The first picture is an interesting one because you can make the argument either way. Either your back line needs to push up and not drop off like that or your midfield needs to be deeper and closer to the back line to stop the player being able to bring it down between the lines and get Notts running. 90th minute, you’re 1-0 up and knackered, I’d tend towards the latter. The problem there is it’s neither one thing nor the other, compounded by the fact there’s three players a few yards from each other in a vertical line rather than across the pitch, shape is all wrong.

The less said about the last picture the better. 

 

A lack of pace is always an issue and it’s so glaring when I watch you. It can get you up the pitch and it will always create doubt in the oppositions mind about how much they can push on. But also I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disappointed with Matty James judging by what I  read on here, doesn’t seem to get explicit criticism but a lot of the problems I read about Id expect less from a Championship side with Matty James in it. Maybe it’s unfair and what’s around him is a problem

 

That first picture is actually at 1-1. So although it doesn't look good, as we probably wanted to get our lead back in the final seconds of the game it maybe meant we looked less organised than I would expect us to look if still in the lead in injury time.

But then again the bottom picture as you say was far worse, and when also considering we were trying to see out a win with minutes left!

 

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Without seeing the play before the highlight started I can’t really say how we got into that shape, but it wasn’t from a goal-kick.  If it was I’d be horrified!!!

Pace is so important….it’s why the last few games Wells has featured we’ve had a different dimension and able to stretch them the other way!  A midfield with Williams and / or Massengo supporting James is different to Bakinson or King.  Until Bournemouth James has been pretty sound, good positioning, anticipation to press, etc. he looked sluggish on Saturday.  He was better on Tuesday, but a little exposed by Weimann and Scott being his partners, as their instincts are very different.

Looking into the future I can see Semenyo playing a part with Wells, whether that is part of a two or a three I don’t know.  At some point James, Massengo and Williams will start a game together.  With Tanner, Dasilva, Kalas forming some of the back line, we suddenly look a bit more pacy.

If we could get to something like this, I think we look very different.

Bentley

Tanner | Kalas | Atkinson or Baker | Dasilva

Williams | James | Massengo

Scott or Weimann | Wells | Semenyo

Not necessarily a 433, just laying out defenders, midfielders, attack-minded players.

 

Things that led up to the 2nd goal was Atkinson back pass to Bentley who kicked a long ball down the middle as Lyle Taylor chased him down.

O'Dowda lost out in the air I think to Worrall. Header goes to Lolley who chests it down and turns as you show in that first picture.

The game had changed at that point having just conceded the equaliser so I was much more annoyed by the first goal where we were trying to see out a lead.

The problem for me was where their player (Lolley I think?) was allowed to cross from. That close to our goal and had been left unmarked. Pretty hard to cope with the ball once it goes through to Bentley who probably saw it late. Someone I know blames Bentley but not so sure he could do much more there. His firm hands on it probably is why Taylor had to handball it as it came to him so fast. And obviously meant it should have been disallowed.

 

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4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Someone I know blames Bentley but not so sure he could do much more there. His firm hands on it probably is why Taylor had to handball it as it came to him so fast. And obviously meant it should have been disallowed.

 

It’s poor where he’s pushed it out to though….got to push it wider, not back out, but yes, through a crowd.  Samba’s “save” for Scott’s goal was far worse

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening.

47FD96F7-025B-4FF0-85B4-3EB5B06CFB46.thumb.jpeg.29f8f1d43cdcef9f79bfc26b2f8eee2a.jpeg

Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down.  Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we?  Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back.

DC335C78-E429-4EE7-842E-0FFC6E481876.thumb.jpeg.f7639a896d8d023f9780aa32b404887a.jpeg

By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there).  James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda.  James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape.  O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on.

DA278A72-CA12-44F2-9439-8BC6C15B5847.thumb.jpeg.2c6463b7fbfda833b179622b7d4f68d3.jpeg

Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten.  Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann.  James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot.

C056C480-C052-4F53-A03C-B77E59D7EC78.thumb.jpeg.2490377ba369e5be0706f9da01eaea01.jpeg

Weimann has let his man gain yards on him.  James and Massengo getting back.  Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner.

A4ED12DF-66F7-451E-8BCF-60AB4CECEDFD.thumb.jpeg.df2d5b115435fb2fc3eb1d10ca2dbeba.jpeg

Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann.  O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be?

This kind of play happened too much.  This time it resulted in a goal.  Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third.  They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers.  I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking.

My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity.  But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc.  What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva.  Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield.

Here’s the equaliser.  It doesn’t need much commentary from me.

C46557EC-951F-4179-966C-E10329832D6B.thumb.jpeg.f5cedca86afedc5ecff7473dda131d7e.jpeg

 

But the fresh legs , Palmer and COD what were they doing to help ? We are talking last minutes of a game we are trying to win. Stood around watching is not helping the effort is it. 

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17 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Until Bournemouth James has been pretty sound, good positioning, anticipation to press, etc. he looked sluggish on Saturday.

Doesn’t feel like that chimes with what’s being said about the team on here, in terms of not keeping the ball well enough and some of the basic possession/passing stats. It’s not solely down to one player to drag everyone else up and maybe in his absence it would be be even worse. Brendan always talks about Tielemans being his coach on the pitch and it usually follows that if Tielemans is shit, we’re shit, and if Tielemans isn’t playing, we really struggle to control the game and play meaningfully through midfield. He dictates how well we defend because he dictates our control of the game and he dictates how well we attack just because of his ability on the ball.

I would expect James’ influence to be similar in this team (obviously he’s not at that level and is playing in a team with a different mindset but I think he could do similar, a bit like Grimes at Swansea has been in recent season) but possession stats are poor, pass completion is poor, the table based on expected goals is poor. For me, a lot of that stems from what your key central midfielder is doing.

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