SL: Back him or Sack Him

[Ivorguy]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

All experienced managers with proven success pass their sell-by dates at some stage.  Clearly Cardiff City felt that Mick McCarthy had passed his, even though his record last season was outstanding.  Pearson, on the other hand, had a dreadful start and his team have only shown limited improvement this season.  The question is at what point you decide that change is needed to avoid the unthinkable relegation.  I believe we have a squad that can stay up, but someone needs to get the best out of them and Pearson sure as hell isn’t at the moment.  If we pick up fewer than four points against Barnsley, Birmingham and Coventry, for instance, do we still do nothing?  Will someone please tell me what Pearson is actually doing at the moment that instils such faith in people?

NP has identified the problems he inherited and begun to address them, ie

relationship between roles of manager (not Head Coach) and CEO

lack of quality in coaching staff

an overhaul of players over a three year period.  Already begun.

fitness of players, eg unacceptable level of injuries last season halted 

group identity

one excellent first team acquisition, Atkinson

one excellent ‘one for the future’ (Pearson’s comment on Tanner signing)

achieved cut in players’ wages, not least with Weimann and Baker accepting lower wages.

With the limitations placed on him I believe he has achieved a great deal.  Judge ‘on the field’, at next natural break, on 1 January, not after three of the most difficult fixtures of the season 

Believe!  We will improve under Pearson but change always takes time.

 

[Davefevs]

Very good post @Ivorguy.

I do think some critique is necessary (and justified), but you can’t just look at results.  In some respects I’m more worried with recent trend in performances, but I also think it’s “where we are” at this stage in the re-build.

[Top Robin]

48 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yet more knee jerk drivel.........get a grip FFS?

I knew someone would come out with the knee jerk argument.....it's not knee jerk, this has been building up over a number of dreadful performances if you haven't noticed.

[redrob]

On 23/10/2021 at 18:02, westonred said:

Dear Steve its time for you to come out and either back NP or sack him.

In January we need to bring in at least 5 championship quality players two strikers two wingers and a Tough tackling midfielder.

We could get rid of Martin, JD, Palmer, COD, Vyner and Simpson who offer us little to maybe help to fund the signings

If NP is not allowed to shape his own squad then you might as well sack him but to find a manager with his experience who would come to BS3 is unlikely so please Steve put your hand in your deep pockets

The sheer delusion shown by some of our fans is hilarious and are summed up in this post! 

[Loosey Boy]

1 hour ago, redrob said:

The sheer delusion shown by some of our fans is hilarious and are summed up in this post! 

Couldn’t have put it better myself…….some people need a reality check!

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 23/10/2021 at 18:02, westonred said:

We could get rid of Martin ...

Our top scorer - any reason you want to bin Chris and not Nahki or Andi? 

[Mr Chappers]

A comparison between the stats of ‘failure’ Holden and ‘saviour’ Pearson is interesting. Obviously you can’t just judge on stats, but equally, you can’t judge on blind optimism alone. The summer signings were a very mixed bag, worryingly very ‘old mates’, and leaving us desperately short of forward options. 
What I found most interesting was that under Holden, the Forum group-think was excellent squad, poor manager. Then it changed to rubbish squad, good manager. You have to objective, if things don’t improve by Christmas, think of accepting things haven’t worked out, just like Forest and Hughton didn’t work out.

Time will tell….

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Mr Chappers said:

A comparison between the stats of ‘failure’ Holden and ‘saviour’ Pearson is interesting. Obviously you can’t just judge on stats, but equally, you can’t judge on blind optimism alone. The summer signings were a very mixed bag, worryingly very ‘old mates’, and leaving us desperately short of forward options. 
What I found most interesting was that under Holden, the Forum group-think was excellent squad, poor manager. Then it changed to rubbish squad, good manager. You have to objective, if things don’t improve by Christmas, think of accepting things haven’t worked out, just like Forest and Hughton didn’t work out.

Time will tell….

My views on Holden were….showed really good early principles, but inexperience showed.  I was a bit disappointed when he was relieved of his duties, but I also felt a bit relieved for him, because I saw it getting a bit desperate at the end of the window…the whole Lansbury, Massengo to Brum, no left back stuff, etc.  I felt unsurprisingly that Ashton was setting him up to fail, even more so with the Ipswich rumours.

With Pearson, I am disappointed with certain things.  Thought he’d get a bit more out of players, but also completely get the bigger picture at play and the cluster#### left by Ashton….and what Pearson has sorted out already.  If it doesn’t work out on the pitch we will still be in a better position off it for his time here.  Sounds like I’m having doubts, not really, just not ignoring some recent poor performances, just as I wasn’t getting carried away by 9th after Peterborough.

There is a long game at play, football often doesn’t let it play out, especially when a week is a long time, and momentum plays it’s part.

These next four games are important.  No point saying “x points minimum” or anything like that, but I do expect to see better performances, more cohesive team play and players showing they are better than what they’ve shown recently.

Lots of other stuff to look at too, e.g. what happens with Simpson going.  Can’t imagine that Downing is staying either from what Nige said, sounds like just formalising his pay-off.  Does that mean we go with Fleming, Cisse and Ball (Bell being made full-time to cover some of Alex’s responsibilities?).  The whole Tinnion, Davenport, Probert (leaving) now Bell stuff seems part of a sequence of events all linked together.

Time will tell indeed….

[wendyredredrobin]

On 23/10/2021 at 18:58, One Team said:

He’s already backed him by giving him a 3 year contract.

I think that might be a 3 year con trick.

[One Team]

7 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

I think that might be a 3 year con trick.

Well he’s had previous with some of his appointments. 

[Major Isewater]

Whilst recent performances have been worrying we can, perhaps, put that, in large part, down to certain first team stalwarts being overplayed.Martin and Weiman seem to have lost their ways and James is going through a bit of a dip in form.

These guys are in the squad to help stabilise the team and aid  the youngsters to kick on.When not at the top of their games we are a bit lacking in direction.

However, who do you replace these players with? 
 

We don’t have the depth in quality and have a terribly unbalanced squad, too many veterans and too many novices. 
 

The Championship is a very, very tough division and we are in the early stages of a reboot. We are a long way from competing with the best teams but , for some of us , we are actually doing better than we thought we would .

 We need patience and to SUPPORT our boys who, by and large, are giving it their best. 

[maxjak]

The Man Utd v Liverpool game yesterday highlighted to a degree part of our ongoing problems.   Liverpool were a well oiled machine, a team in every sense of the word, and so much more than their individual parts?   They had been organised and coached to a level that made them almost impossible to contain, yes their individual players are all wonderfully talented, but the secret  is in their cohesion and understanding of each other and the roles they inhabit.

Man Utd were also blessed with a squad of superb talent and ability, the difference being, how badly they had been coached  and organised as a functioning unit?  Players of undoubted talent were outplayed and outmanourved by a Liverpool team that despite a couple of changes in personel were so well set up and disciplined, it did not matter   exactly who the individuals were ( as long as they had the required ability) as they were so well coached and  set up that they over ran a disparate Man utd  bunch of individuals.

 Bristol City's major problem is the way they are being coached, their is undoubtedly enough talent and skill in our squad to do so much better, if we we were organised and set up in a consistent pattern of tactics &. identity  I am desperately hoping that with the dismissal of Simpson and Downing, that the plan is to introduce a new coach or coaches that have sufficient talent and know how to drum into our squad the means to play as a team, as a collective unit?

It should have happened months ago....but better late than never Eh?   If of course this all about a cost cutting exercise and we intend to retain and promote from within, then I would be deeply concerned about our prospects for the rest of the season.   FFS sort it out Nige, or the 2nd year of your 3 year plan will be in Division 1?

Edited October 25, 2021 by maxjak

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Bristol City's major problem is the way they are being coached, their is undoubtedly enough talent and skill in our squad to do so much better, if we we were organised and set up in a consistent pattern of tactics &. identity  I am desperately hoping that with the dismissal of Simpson and Downing, that the plan is to introduce a new coach or coaches that have sufficient talent and know how to drum into our squad the means to play as a team, as a collective unit?

It should have happened months ago....but better late than never Eh?   If of course this all about a cost cutting exercise and we intend to retain and promote from within, then I would be deeply concerned about our prospects for the rest of the season.   FFS sort it out Nige, or the 2nd year of your 3 year plan will be in Division 1?

You may have guessed from countless posts of mine that unless you have something consistent to judge against, it’s very difficult to understand what is working and what isn’t.  That’s not just the manager in deciding tactics, personnel for a game but the players themselves.

As for the coaches, I guess we will know more this week.  Nige’s BBCRB interview makes Downing’s position untenable, so can only be final agreement of his pay-off.  When you hear “he needs to decide whether he wants to be here or not”, I only hear that as a combo of Nige doesn’t want him, Downing wants to go.

Bit of a mess, but rebuilds are gonna have some awkward moments.

[chinapig]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As for the coaches, I guess we will know more this week.  Nige’s BBCRB interview makes Downing’s position untenable, so can only be final agreement of his pay-off.  When you hear “he needs to decide whether he wants to be here or not”, I only hear that as a combo of Nige doesn’t want him, Downing wants to go.

Possibly Downing is not happy with his mate being sacked so is considering his position, which would be consistent with Nige's words.

[Partridge is a robin]

21 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

All experienced managers with proven success pass their sell-by dates at some stage.  Clearly Cardiff City felt that Mick McCarthy had passed his, even though his record last season was outstanding.  Pearson, on the other hand, had a dreadful start and his team have only shown limited improvement this season.  The question is at what point you decide that change is needed to avoid the unthinkable relegation.  I believe we have a squad that can stay up, but someone needs to get the best out of them and Pearson sure as hell isn’t at the moment.  If we pick up fewer than four points against Barnsley, Birmingham and Coventry, for instance, do we still do nothing?  Will someone please tell me what Pearson is actually doing at the moment that instils such faith in people?

If we do sack pearson where will we go from there? Are there any candidates in mind? I know things arent great but i think pearson deserves at least a full season...unless perhaps we're in bottom 3. I'd hate us to be one of those teams that constantly recycle the managers position and get through like 5 managers in 3 seasons.

 

[The Bard]

On 23/10/2021 at 21:50, JoeAman08 said:

Yep and it is worrying. Even more so when it seems SL is so bought in that NP is making lots of staff changes at the minute as well. Feel like making similar mistakes to the Ashton era. NP looks to have a lot of power. I do think he is clever and is assembling a much more competent staff than Ashton ever did but if he can’t get it right on the pitch, are we going to be left with a bunch of staff on new contracts and not wanted by the next guy? 

You do realise that Ranieri came into Leicester on his own when they won the Premier league? 

All the staff were appointed previously.  That's why Pearson has been appointed- to build a club.  We can have our opinions on his tactics etc but his record shows he is successful in the long term when given control. When appointed into an existing set up, things don't last long as he will inevitably clash with someone who has a power base.

 

At City he seems to be working with what is here initially but will make changes as he goes along. I've always felt his role was more akin to that of a Director of Rugby who have control of a lot more than just picking the team. 

[Mr Chappers]

3 minutes ago, The Bard said:

You do realise that Ranieri came into Leicester on his own when they won the Premier league? 

All the staff were appointed previously.  That's why Pearson has been appointed- to build a club.  We can have our opinions on his tactics etc but his record shows he is successful in the long term when given control. When appointed into an existing set up, things don't last long as he will inevitably clash with someone who has a power base.

 

At City he seems to be working with what is here initially but will make changes as he goes along. I've always felt his role was more akin to that of a Director of Rugby who have control of a lot more than just picking the team. 

If you look at his statistical record, apart from his spells at Leicester, it’s very ordinary.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

You do realise that Ranieri came into Leicester on his own when they won the Premier league? 

All the staff were appointed previously.  That's why Pearson has been appointed- to build a club.  We can have our opinions on his tactics etc but his record shows he is successful in the long term when given control. When appointed into an existing set up, things don't last long as he will inevitably clash with someone who has a power base.

 

At City he seems to be working with what is here initially but will make changes as he goes along. I've always felt his role was more akin to that of a Director of Rugby who have control of a lot more than just picking the team. 

I agree.  His role here is in part to set the foundations, get the club moving forward.  Someone else made a point that he might not be the “manager” when it comes to fruition.  I’m of that opinion too.  He’s being trusted by SL to get get the set-up right and not be conned.  He’s acting in a capacity with a wider remit of manager.

[JoeAman08]

3 hours ago, The Bard said:

You do realise that Ranieri came into Leicester on his own when they won the Premier league? 

All the staff were appointed previously.  That's why Pearson has been appointed- to build a club.  We can have our opinions on his tactics etc but his record shows he is successful in the long term when given control. When appointed into an existing set up, things don't last long as he will inevitably clash with someone who has a power base.

 

At City he seems to be working with what is here initially but will make changes as he goes along. I've always felt his role was more akin to that of a Director of Rugby who have control of a lot more than just picking the team. 

Maybe and I think I’d be fine with that. I almost feel he’d be better off as a DoF for us. It is on the pitch I am more concerned with. 
 

And yes staff can stay with someone new but NP is being quite quick moving on from staff hired as recently as last season. I just hope due diligence is being done on these hires. That they are happy to work here under NP or under someone else if it comes to that. 

[The Bard]

13 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Maybe and I think I’d be fine with that. I almost feel he’d be better off as a DoF for us. It is on the pitch I am more concerned with. 
 

And yes staff can stay with someone new but NP is being quite quick moving on from staff hired as recently as last season. I just hope due diligence is being done on these hires. That they are happy to work here under NP or under someone else if it comes to that. 

They're not his staff though.  You can't exactly say they've been roaring successes

[Monkeh]

On 24/10/2021 at 16:14, S25loyal said:

How many haven’t been so lucky? 

Bury? The list is pretty short really

Bury

Portsmouth

Ipswich

Bolton

Chester

Darlington

Hereford

Derby

Sheffield Wednesday

I could go on if you like 

[redrob]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I agree.  His role here is in part to set the foundations, get the club moving forward.  Someone else made a point that he might not be the “manager” when it comes to fruition.  I’m of that opinion too.  He’s being trusted by SL to get get the set-up right and not be conned.  He’s acting in a capacity with a wider remit of manager.

I seem to remember a number of vocal moaners.. I mean posters.... Clamouring for an experienced head to be brought into the club in a role similar to Pat Lam. Give them control to build the football on and off the pitch rather than having a head coach for the on the pitch/training ground and a CEO who does everything off the pitch. 

 

Now some of those posters seem to not like what they asked for. 

Personally, I see a man who is very clever and is building for the long term. The application of sport psychology is there for all to see. If you can't see what is happening I'd suggest Remeber the Titans as what's happening at the moment screams of a group of people that have come out of the forming phase of group dynamics and are in the storming phase. 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by redrob
Added missing link

[hertsexile]

There have been big improvements from last season’s shambles so I say back him. 
The main problem is our unbalanced squad which is the fallout from Ashtons quantity over quality strategy which has left Big Nigel with a fine mess to sort out. I also think that Mr Lansdown is also trying to do the right thing throwing money at something for a short term gain is not always the best policy. The club has to be sustainable in the long term. Paying outrageous transfer and agents fees along with players wage demands in the current situation is not the thing to do. Look what happened to us in 1982. 
Nigel is doing a good job in difficult times so back him 

[Monkeh]

This season is about treading water, we are doing that

We have lost 3 games in a row yes,

2 of those were against the two best sides in the division and taught us a lesson, but remember those were prem players in all but name

The other forest was a game we should of been out if sight in, but for poor singsong yet again from the usual suspects

Sadly there is a mental issue about playing at home, this is our biggest issue and needs to be sorted, if the club hasn't employed one yet then they should be getting a psychologist in to work with the players and their mental weakness

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

This season is about treading water, we are doing that

We have lost 3 games in a row yes,

2 of those were against the two best sides in the division and taught us a lesson, but remember those were prem players in all but name

The other forest was a game we should of been out if sight in, but for poor singsong yet again from the usual suspects

Sadly there is a mental issue about playing at home, this is our biggest issue and needs to be sorted, if the club hasn't employed one yet then they should be getting a psychologist in to work with the players and their mental weakness

Just one - we need a busload of ‘em!

[JoeAman08]

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

They're not his staff though.  You can't exactly say they've been roaring successes

I don’t disagree. Just saying if results don’t improve we could be in the same situation again in the near future

[The Bard]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I don’t disagree. Just saying if results don’t improve we could be in the same situation again in the near future

Yeah but no. Similar in terms of results but difference now is we're in the early stages of a different set up.  Holden plus the 2 stooges were clearly part of Ashton's end game. Getting rid will represent a break from the past.