The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Harry]

I’ve had a long break from otib. But I’ve conceded and just had to come back given the debate of late. 
 

Firstly, let me be quite clear on this. I don’t want to see Pearson sacked, but he has an awful lot to prove, for me.
 

However, there is something that I’ve not seen mentioned in the Pearson debate/state of the club debate in these recent turgid weeks. 
 

Recruitment. 
And specifically, the Recruitment Department. 
 

Let me explain. When Pearson arrived, we’d been a few years down the line of a pretty horrendous player recruitment process. You all know my thoughts on Ashton (and I’m glad you all finally saw what I was telling you all 4/5 years ago!). 
The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else. He was the CEO, but was essentially acting as the Director Of Football, the Head of Recruitment and the Chief Scout, all rolled into one. Too much power for one man. Yes we know, we’ve been through that story all summer and autumn. 
 

Once he departed, what were we left with. Well, you’ll see it was made very clear in the Post article a couple of weeks ago. We have a chap called Sean Gilhespy and he has a team of 3 or 4 data analysts and a couple of interns. Yep. That’s your lot. Gilhespy himself was historically a data analyst too. 
So in short, we’ve got 4 guys and a couple of unpaid uni-leavers who all come from a background of number crunching and data slicing. Yes, they’ve all done their uni courses in football analytics, but none of them have any experience of professional football, nor of actual player talent identification. 

Gilhespy is now the person who is taking the calls from the agents and is the first port of call for any recruitment queries, player availability, transfer talk etc. 
Now, if I was to tell you that I know a number of agents in the game, all with a healthy bounty of players, and I said to you that Mr Gilhespy doesn’t answer his phone or his emails, you might be pretty disappointed. 
I have no cross to bear and no reason to doubt that Mr Gilhespy is a nice enough chap and may well be a good data cruncher, but he is not the person who should be talking to agents about player transfers. I know through these agents with whom I have contact that he is seen as utterly useless and completely out of his depth. Data cruncher - no problem. Acting Head of Recruitment - wow!!! Unreal. 
 

I think, though I can’t be 100% sure, that we are probably the only professional football club in the country who doesn’t currently have a Head of Recruitment or Chief Scout. That is the real scandal that is currently going on at our club. We’ve got a chap who did a uni course on football data analysis as our Head of Recruitment and 3 of his data crunching pals running the show. We’ve got an absolute amateur in charge of taking calls from agents, which he invariably doesn’t answer. It’s an utter utter shambles. 
Steve Lansdown seems to be happy continuing with this amateur recruitment set up that Ashton left him with, a set up which SL is probably happy with as he thinks we’re finding gems from an in-house database and not having to talk to those dirty agents touting their players around. Oh, how sweet and innocent. **** your morals Steve. This is football. You alone are not going to change the moral fibre of this sport. If you want to run a recruitment department which ignores player agents then you’ll always be 24th in line in this division for a players signature. 
 

Let’s bring this back to Pearson. 
We all know the Leicester story. Nige was a strong manager, with trusted assistants, but backed up with a head of recruitment in Steve Walsh, who pretty much signed the title winning team. 
The recruitment position is so so essential. Without Steve Walsh and Craig Shakespeare, Nige doesn’t put that Leicester team in the position he got them. That’s not to play down his achievements, Nige clearly had a major influence on that squad, but he was not responsible for putting that squad together and he also had an assistant coach, without whom he hasn’t really achieved any modicum of success (for reference, look at Pearson’s record with and without Shakespeare). It ain’t very pretty. 

Fast forward to February 2021. Pearson joins us. It’s clear that Ashton is departing. It’s clear that Pearson is a manager who needs his trusted back room team. We know for an absolute fact that Pearson is not a man who likes/wants to deal with agents. It’s clear that we are under financial constraints. 
Given all of that, what’s the most important thing we needed. Yep, you’ve guessed it - a Head of Recruitment. 
I must confess, I was absolutely amazed that we didn’t manage to bring Steve Walsh in. He should have been the first person SL needed to call once Ashton was on his way. 
We’ve left a huge void in one of the most important roles at a football club. Even more so given what was required and the financial situation. 
 

Ultimately we’ve made 7 signings so far under Nige. 3 of them were clearly his own call from the Leicester connections. Obviously 2 young prospects with very very little pro football on their cv’s. But we have to add Weimann and Baker too, both of whom should easily have been released. Both were on high wages and hadn’t really proven anything over the previous season or 2. Yes, they both took pay cuts, but they are still incredibly handsomely paid and still 2 of the higher earners we have. 
Both should have gone. But the problem was this - we had no head of recruitment. So we had no idea of any other players we could realistically have brought in to replace them. So I’d imagine Nige had to reluctantly accept their return - there was nothing else on the table!! 
 

If we’d employed a proper experienced head of recruitment when Nige joined in Feb, and also employed some proper experienced talent spotters (ie Scouts and a Chief Scout) to actually physically get out there and watch 10-20 games a week, rather than crunch some numbers on a computer, we might’ve given Nige a very different looking squad this season. 
 

The simple fact that we have a Manager who doesn’t like the recruitment/agent side of the game, a new CEO who isn’t particularly responsible or experienced in that part of the game and a data crunching head of recruitment who ignores calls from agents, topped off with an owner who seems to actively encourage us to steer away from those pesky agents and try to implement our own holier than thou model, basically puts us at the bottom of the list for player availability. 
There were plentiful deals that could have been had in the summer had we acted early enough or shown any semblance of interest in, and we could’ve improved this squad without having to shell out high wages to 2 returning players and 2 other 35 year old has-beens. 
The fact there is a tight financial situation is the very reason we shouldn’t have signed Simpson, King, Baker & Weimann. It’s the very reason we needed proper experienced people running the summer recruitment and dealing with the players and agents, the very reason we should’ve been in conversation for the best deals we could possibly get rather than ignoring the calls and thinking we could do things our own way. 
 

Nige has effectively signed 7 players. 5 or 6 of them featured in pretty much every game this season. So whilst this is still far from being “nigels squad”, half of the outfield first team each week IS his squad. 
Therefore, yes, we can begin to judge Nige on this teams performances as he has 7 of his own players around him and he really really should have been doing much better than what’s gone so far.

But, in his defence, he’s being handed an absolute shit-show of a recruitment team. 
 

My thoughts - Pearson will be given time. No doubt.  But he should rightly take some flak for performances this season. He really should be getting more fight from these players. But, we are going absolutely nowhere - correction, we are going backwards at a rate of knots, until we get a proper recruitment team on board. 

Lansdown needs to pull out whatever stops he can, and bring in a Head of Recruitment as a matter of absolute urgency. This needs to be supplemented by a host of scouts (not just 2 or 3 part-timers, we need countless bodies in every area of the country, an army of scouts watching 20+ games a week between them and reporting to a Chief) - actual physical scouts going and watching players and having conversations with agents and other scouts at games - it’s called networking. And you can’t get that from looking at a bunch of numbers on a screen. Without that network, there is zero relationships, and without relationships with agents, you are bottom of the list when it comes to an agent placing their player with a new club. 

I have zero problem with the data analysts. It’s a perfectly valid part of the modern game. But they shouldn’t be the first port of call on player recruitment. They should be there to back up any scouting reports, not to be the instigators of player ID. And Sean the number crunching shy-guy certainly shouldn’t be the person responsible for speaking to the agents. 
 

This is where change is paramount. And must be effected immediately. 
Everything else that’s being argued about on here is purely secondary - without a properly functioning recruitment team, we will go backwards, fast. 
 

Anyway - good to be back.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Harry

[cidered abroad]

Wow!!!!!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Welcome back. Well sounds like you are not totally convinced by anything at present happening at the club presently. Where we have to defer opinion as you seem better informed on the recruitment staffs ability's. I not sure what to think. I feel the rebuild of club structure and players is at least a 5 season job. And we going to see it rough and bumpy at times, as it is at present. But I have a hope that we have started to see moves in the right direction with players and the backroom and higher members of staff. But it is only the start. So just hope it all worth it in the end. I am city till I die so what will happen will happen.

COYR

[pedigree]

On 22/09/2021 at 16:25, Eddie Hitler said:

Wakefield.

 

Edit: I read that in the paper within the last fortnight.

I never post on here. But so much to agree with. Harry and DaveFevs, in different ways, seem quite a step ahead of the club. 

[Lrrr]

it’s been clear from your posting for a long time you have an axe to grind with recruitment analysis and data analysts as much as you try to say you don’t here it’s still evident from the way you write it. 
 

[RedNachos]

Brilliant read and I echo nearly everything you've said, with resigning weiman being the only exception. Getting a quality dof is the biggest priority for us at the moment. I'd hope we look in scandanavia and mimick Brentford's recruitment. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

it’s been clear from your posting for a long time you have an axe to grind with recruitment analysis and data analysts as much as you try to say you don’t here it’s still evident from the way you write it. 
 

I had a huge axe to grind when Ashton was here as I knew exactly what his game was and that it wasn’t healthy for this club. I had personal dealings with him and knew he was a rotter. 
And now I have an axe to grind because Lansdown has let the club go from 1 man controlling everything to no one in control of recruitment at all. 
I don’t have anything against the data analysts whatsoever. They are a perfectly normal part of the modern game. 
But I do have a mountainous problem with a data analyst running the whole recruitment department and not taking phone calls from agents. 
Do you agree that a proper Head of Recruitment is needed? 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Harry

[Midlands Robin]

The big problem as I see it with the "Lansdown model" is how can it work without a scouting network deeply embedded within the game?

If that is missing then how are we supposed to locate these players that other clubs have missed, snap them up for a bargain price and develop them into assets worth multiple millions?

on the flip side of the coin, Atkinson and Tanner both look like great signings who do fit the mold of the type of player we should be signing. Tanner was signed as that archetypal young player who we could mold into a first team regular and within a week or two he's already in the first team and starting.

That says something positive about our recruitment process if those two are anything to go by.

It would definitely appear that we have a significant amount of work to do to broaden and deepen our scouting and recruiting team but it can't be all bad if Atkinson and Tanner are anything to go by.

[Henry]

Good to see you back @Harry

My gut feeling was that a head of recruitment was being looked at in the summer, quite possibly Steve Walsh, but I believe he is currently in a job. When no one was appointed, I assumed that was because the people we were after, weren’t available or didn’t want to come, but the hunt remained.

When the Bristol Post story came out last week about the data guys, it did feel like a PR stunt by the club,

Do you think we are actually after anyone for that role? 

[Guest]

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

[Cidre Monita]

37 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

City recruit is far from best in class . The current set up is only partially fit for purpose .  It has gaping holes . It needs upgrading ASAP . 

[Oh Louie louie]

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

[Mendip City]

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

As ever, it all leads back to SL. He’s invested… just not often well and I wonder what desire for success he has left in him. We’ve had 20 years of getting nowhere fast… but so has he. 

[Red Army 75]

Good to see you back @Harry. 

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

I don’t see the benefit of only talking to certain agents? You’d always be missing out on certain players…it doesn’t make sense. I’m sure it does happen in other clubs where Brian doesn’t like talking to Jeff the Agent because he is a bit of a scallywag but you need to rise above that, it’s business! You employ the right people to deal with agents.

[SuperRed]

Given the money wasted on players, it baffles me why Lansdown has not used his money to create an elite recruitment department. Go and study how those sides that overachieve through good recruitment do it and identify the best person you possibly can to run it. It seems like a no brainer. Instead we’re nearly 20 years into Lansdown’s reign and we have a recruitment department made up of a small group of analysts / interns! 

Edited October 25, 2021 by SuperRed

[054123]

5 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

Either way you’d be awfully naïve to not fully recognise just what ‘rebuild’ actually means.

The next few years is going to be a bumpy road and if a ‘bad 7 days’ gives you the shits then it might be best you look away now.

Edited October 25, 2021 by 054123

[Oh Louie louie]

Reading between the lines nige has asked for a couple of seasons,

But if sls, pleading poverty again next season, not going to work.

He does this every few years.

[Major Isewater]

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

[Oh Louie louie]

Many pundits are suggesting it will take newcastle 4 years to challenge.

What chance do we have going on this seasons budget.

 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

13 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

Scouting the lower/non leagues? 

[Red Exile]

42 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Either way you’d be awfully naïve to not fully recognise just what ‘rebuild’ actually means.

The next few years is going to be a bumpy road and if a ‘bad 7 days’ gives you the shits then it might be best you look away now.

I agree - and goodness knows we've been in worse places than this in the past. The joy of this season would be seeing some young stars of the future emerge...and avoiding relegation.

However, I find it harder to get excited about the Lansdown 'rebuilds'...each appears to be followed by a squandering of the opportunities and back to square one. The last rebuild - under SOD and Cotts put us in a great position. SL threw it away. The temptation to 'look away' gets greater each time it happens.

[054123]

33 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

It’s a fair point but if you are looking to build a business, where and when do you start?

 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, 054123 said:

It’s a fair point but if you are looking to build a business, where and when do you start?

 

Set the processes in place, and start looking. Not much point waiting around or you’d miss out when the time comes.

[KegCity]

36 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

To find targets in the lower leagues that are affordable (Tanner etc) and to identify players that we'd look to bring in at a later date when there's more money available. Preparation and planning are never bad things.

[ExiledAjax]

As I remember, under Ashton we used scouting software/player database stuff licensed to us by a company he owns. IIRC that was implemented when he was a consultant with us, and then also used whilst he was CEO. The article with Gilhespy says we have "our own" database, but doesn't elaborate on that very much.

My question to @Harry - do you know if we still use Ashton's stuff, or did that get canned when Ashton left?

[Oh Louie louie]

We keep signing players from that level.

What seems more likely?

A we get promoted,

B we end up in the lower leauges.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

7 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

We keep signing players from that level.

What seems more likely?

A we get promoted,

B we end up in the lower leauges.

 

hence the need for ‘talent’ spotters

[Oh Louie louie]

That is true max.

But i dunno does that warrant a wage for say 2 or 3 signings a year?

I dont think so.

And if thats his remt, sl may as well walk away now.

[Robbored]

Where have you been Harry?