The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Although I agree with much of the OP, I can't agree that Weimann "should be gone".

Where the f- would our season be without him? Bottom three perhaps. 

Maybe there might be a chance that we could have landed some cheaper lower league forward who might have stepped up a level and scored 18 goals by mid- March,. But that's one hell of a maybe. 

Unfortunately,  you have to pay a premium for goalscorers. They are the most expensive part of a team. 

The list of "handsomely paid" players who shouldn't be here is long, but it doesn't include AW. 

 

 

and to be fair to the OP (me), the post was made 6 months ago. 
I will happily hold my hands up and say that Weimann has been a success this year. 

[Harry]

9 hours ago, Henry said:

I wonder what @Harry’s views are now with having a link to the club.

Do you feel anything has changed? Are we better set up for this next window?

Having to remain neutral on the subject now to be honest Henry. Sorry. 
All I’d say is that I am aware of exactly how things work now, what we’re looking for and how, and whilst some of it makes a certain sense I still think there are some major flaws. But they will be kept firmly under my hat. 
Suffice to say, I do think Richard Gould is trying his best to head things in the right direction. But it won’t be a quick or easy fix. 

[Gert Mare]

@Harry We are suffering the effects of the Ashton era and the pandemic. What grinds with me the most on the Pearson debate is that fans love him when we win and have ‘had enough’ when we lose.

It was clearly evident when Nige joined the club that a lot of things needed changing. Nige eluded to this in one of his very first interviews. He had little time to prepare and we were still in the grip of the pandemic so he contacted players who he knew he could trust and hoped that their quality and experience of playing at the highest level would have helped to steady the sinking ship.

Simpson was a straight up failure. Nowhere near Championship level. That was a punt that turned out to be a negative, but Nige hoped he could reignite the players passion after it was known that other clubs wouldn’t touch him because of what he had done in his personal life. Mentally I think that Simpson was shot and I feel sorry for Nige on that one.

Where King was concerned I thought it was potentially a good signing at the time. This was a player who could score goals and who also was a City fan which was an added bonus. King hadn’t been playing to the standard of Championship level football but he has a great attitude and Pearson felt he would inspire the younger players in the team. Unfortunately King has ended up on the treatment table for a long time which is just unfortunate. Had he stayed fit I think we would have seen his influence as the season progressed and he became fitter.

Matty James (although blighted a bit by injury) has proven to be a good addition. Although he’s not the quickest he is a good playmaker and his reintroduction to the team recently has helped us to create a few more goal scoring opportunities. Personally I think James was a decent signing.

Rob Atkinson - Another decent signing in my opinion. Hit by Covid when already trying to get up to speed in the Championship, but who is a player that can bring the ball out of defence with his feet and in recent games is beginning to show the quality that Nige stated that he had.

George Tanner - A young committed player who was sadly struck down by a long term injury. Just sheer bad luck on that one. Nige has struggled to plug that hole ever since.

Andi Weimann - A pricey resign but also a priceless one. This is a player who earns every penny. Fitness and work rate is bang on.

Nathan Baker - Potentially a great defender when fit, but will he ever remain fit? I doubt it. Again, this was a risky punt which has ended up backfiring as he ended up back in the treatment room for an entire season. 

The rest of the squad is what Nige inherited. Not ‘his own’ squad as many fans keep saying. Getting a consistent tune out of that mob is pretty much impossible. Quite a few will be shipped out when possible but that isn’t going to happen overnight, so when fans start questioning whether Nige is the right man for the job every time we lose a game they need to remember that a lot of these players won’t ever consistently cut it at Championship level. Someone said it was down to Nige being unable to motivate players. I’ll argue all day that if a player isn’t up to it standard wise then that fault doesn’t lie at the manager’s feet (unless he signed them in the first place). Ian Holloway managed Hanham Boys and they finished 4th from bottom. He took Blackpool into the Premier League. Motivation is just a piece of the jigsaw.

We no longer win a few then lose 12 on the bounce like we did under Johnson and Holden. We have pretty much the same squad so there is a big shift in how we perform over all and at least we don’t spend large parts of the game passing the ball sideways across the back four waiting to get dispossessed. Massive improvement.

SL/JL have a clear objective. Invest in the academy and get them into the first team for sustainability. Nige is following this objective. Blooding more youngsters in one season since Danny Wilson.

Agents are self serving parasites who will bankrupt a football club by getting as much money as they can for their players. Once a player is paid handsomely their mindset is shot and you are managing egos. These players think they are too good for Bristol City and we don’t get our money’s worth.

Bottom line is that we have to invest in our scouting network for young talent and we need to be operating in the lower leagues to find potential within a more realistic budget. However frustrating the structure of the club may appear we are lucky just to have a club to support at all. 1982 is the reason why we are still here, and without SL we wouldn’t have the improved facilities that we have today. 

Avoiding League One is where we are right now and clearing up the Ashton mess is going to take time. I hope that Nige gets the backing he needs in the summer to help us build on what we have. Hopefully once some of the dead wood has been shifted we will improve our position in the league.

Nige is the most straight talking sensible man manager we have had since Alan Dicks. I’ve yet to see a single interview with him where I feel he is talking utter bollocks. If we keep him at the helm longer term I feel we will definitely improve (and within budget). 
 

 

[Guest]

Theres a job going back at Leicester for a new "right hand man" for B. Rogers as the current one L Congerton leaves, then again cant see NP being anyones righthand man. Bit of a fire and fire combo with those 2 together.

[robin for life]

Selling Andi Wiemann would make no sense. At his age there is no selling value, and we would struggle to recoup the £2m we paid for him, plus we couldn't replace him for £2m.

If there is 7 figures on the table for Semenyo, he has to be sold. He is not a prolific striker yet, and whilst he has good vision, movement and has a lot of promise, he is only a marginal improvement on what Bobby Reid was. Selling him for 10-12m with a sell on clause makes perfect sense, as he could be replaced with a good youngster on loan, an experienced free agent, or on a player proven at League one, who is young and could make the transition to Championship Football, and would probably only  cost 2-3m. 

Its financial sense to sell Semenyo, it makes no sense to sell Andi.

[firstdivision]

22 hours ago, Gert Mare said:

@Harry We are suffering the effects of the Ashton era and the pandemic. What grinds with me the most on the Pearson debate is that fans love him when we win and have ‘had enough’ when we lose.

It was clearly evident when Nige joined the club that a lot of things needed changing. Nige eluded to this in one of his very first interviews. He had little time to prepare and we were still in the grip of the pandemic so he contacted players who he knew he could trust and hoped that their quality and experience of playing at the highest level would have helped to steady the sinking ship.

Simpson was a straight up failure. Nowhere near Championship level. That was a punt that turned out to be a negative, but Nige hoped he could reignite the players passion after it was known that other clubs wouldn’t touch him because of what he had done in his personal life. Mentally I think that Simpson was shot and I feel sorry for Nige on that one.

Where King was concerned I thought it was potentially a good signing at the time. This was a player who could score goals and who also was a City fan which was an added bonus. King hadn’t been playing to the standard of Championship level football but he has a great attitude and Pearson felt he would inspire the younger players in the team. Unfortunately King has ended up on the treatment table for a long time which is just unfortunate. Had he stayed fit I think we would have seen his influence as the season progressed and he became fitter.

Matty James (although blighted a bit by injury) has proven to be a good addition. Although he’s not the quickest he is a good playmaker and his reintroduction to the team recently has helped us to create a few more goal scoring opportunities. Personally I think James was a decent signing.

Rob Atkinson - Another decent signing in my opinion. Hit by Covid when already trying to get up to speed in the Championship, but who is a player that can bring the ball out of defence with his feet and in recent games is beginning to show the quality that Nige stated that he had.

George Tanner - A young committed player who was sadly struck down by a long term injury. Just sheer bad luck on that one. Nige has struggled to plug that hole ever since.

Andi Weimann - A pricey resign but also a priceless one. This is a player who earns every penny. Fitness and work rate is bang on.

Nathan Baker - Potentially a great defender when fit, but will he ever remain fit? I doubt it. Again, this was a risky punt which has ended up backfiring as he ended up back in the treatment room for an entire season. 

The rest of the squad is what Nige inherited. Not ‘his own’ squad as many fans keep saying. Getting a consistent tune out of that mob is pretty much impossible. Quite a few will be shipped out when possible but that isn’t going to happen overnight, so when fans start questioning whether Nige is the right man for the job every time we lose a game they need to remember that a lot of these players won’t ever consistently cut it at Championship level. Someone said it was down to Nige being unable to motivate players. I’ll argue all day that if a player isn’t up to it standard wise then that fault doesn’t lie at the manager’s feet (unless he signed them in the first place). Ian Holloway managed Hanham Boys and they finished 4th from bottom. He took Blackpool into the Premier League. Motivation is just a piece of the jigsaw.

We no longer win a few then lose 12 on the bounce like we did under Johnson and Holden. We have pretty much the same squad so there is a big shift in how we perform over all and at least we don’t spend large parts of the game passing the ball sideways across the back four waiting to get dispossessed. Massive improvement.

SL/JL have a clear objective. Invest in the academy and get them into the first team for sustainability. Nige is following this objective. Blooding more youngsters in one season since Danny Wilson.

Agents are self serving parasites who will bankrupt a football club by getting as much money as they can for their players. Once a player is paid handsomely their mindset is shot and you are managing egos. These players think they are too good for Bristol City and we don’t get our money’s worth.

Bottom line is that we have to invest in our scouting network for young talent and we need to be operating in the lower leagues to find potential within a more realistic budget. However frustrating the structure of the club may appear we are lucky just to have a club to support at all. 1982 is the reason why we are still here, and without SL we wouldn’t have the improved facilities that we have today. 

Avoiding League One is where we are right now and clearing up the Ashton mess is going to take time. I hope that Nige gets the backing he needs in the summer to help us build on what we have. Hopefully once some of the dead wood has been shifted we will improve our position in the league.

Nige is the most straight talking sensible man manager we have had since Alan Dicks. I’ve yet to see a single interview with him where I feel he is talking utter bollocks. If we keep him at the helm longer term I feel we will definitely improve (and within budget). 
 

 

‘We no longer win a few and lose 12 on the bounce like we did under Johnson and Holden.’ A bit of fact checking wouldn’t go amiss here. 
Lee Johnson W84 D54 L79

Dean Holden W19 D5 L19

Nigel Pearson W14 D12 L29

There was a season when we lost six in a row under LJ and we also lost six in a row under DH before he was sacked.

NP lost four in a row in a run of two points from nine matches. 

[Unan]

On 25/10/2021 at 18:08, BigAl&Toby said:

Data analysts.

Business analysts.

All about simply gathering data and chucking it in whatever business tool you choose to use. Dare I say that anyone with time on their hands and a laptop could do it? If they’re so inclined.

 

I used to think, somewhat, similarly. After starting to learn data science I can’t even begin to explain how wrong this is.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

‘We no longer win a few and lose 12 on the bounce like we did under Johnson and Holden.’ A bit of fact checking wouldn’t go amiss here. 
Lee Johnson W84 D54 L79

Dean Holden W19 D5 L19

Nigel Pearson W14 D12 L29

There was a season when we lost six in a row under LJ and we also lost six in a row under DH before he was sacked.

NP lost four in a row in a run of two points from nine matches. 

@firstdivision

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Ignoring the tail end of last season when Pearson took over a sinking ship and kept us up, where is any part of this seasons results within a country mile of LJ's super record of 11, yes ELEVEN, points from 72 available?

Yes we have squandered too many by conceding in the last five minutes of matches, especially at home, but in the opinion of many supporters, we are at lest now trying to play as a team and to actually attack the oppostion goal a helluve lot more than your little hero did!

[TBW]

They can pay me to play Football Manager and identify players if they want. That's how all the best analysts do it nowadays anyway right?

[GrahamC]

On 21/03/2022 at 19:27, Harry said:

and to be fair to the OP (me), the post was made 6 months ago. 
I will happily hold my hands up and say that Weimann has been a success this year. 

Also, if anyone trawled back 6 months they would be able to find posts where we have all got it wrong.

Plenty on here thought Liam Walsh was the answer in midfield & how’s his career going?(really awful) & personally I certainly thought we would be able to get by with a combination of Vyner & Simpson competing for the RB slot, nope.

[Waconda]

11 minutes ago, TBW said:

They can pay me to play Football Manager and identify players if they want. That's how all the best analysts do it nowadays anyway right?

Statistical analysis should "aid" recruitment and certainly not "lead" it.

[TBW]

16 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Statistical analysis should "aid" recruitment and certainly not "lead" it.

Dunno, I reckon I could unearth a few wonderkids. 

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

I used to think, somewhat, similarly. After starting to learn data science I can’t even begin to explain how wrong this is.

Quite. Hope you the data science is going well.

As an example, RB Leipzig recently appointed the senior analyst from The Athletic to their recruitment team.

Admittedly I didn't see the job advert but it's probably safe to assume that it didn't say no qualifications or experience required, anybody with a laptop can do it.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Waconda said:

Statistical analysis should "aid" recruitment and certainly not "lead" it.

Agree in principal, but there will be some occasions where it might lead, e.g. “tell me all the wingers in Europe who have similar stats to Knockaert”.

[Waconda]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree in principal, but there will be some occasions where it might lead, e.g. “tell me all the wingers in Europe who have similar stats to Knockaert”.

Yes, initial filtering perhaps but some things cannot be quantified in stats.

Character for one.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yes, initial filtering perhaps but some things cannot be quantified in stats.

Character for one.

Totally.

There are a whole host of “things” to be considered when recruiting, some are statistical, some aren’t.  Some picked up by watching video, some by watching live, some by speaking to others, etc.

[Waconda]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Totally.

There are a whole host of “things” to be considered when recruiting, some are statistical, some aren’t.  Some picked up by watching video, some by watching live, some by speaking to others, etc.

Yep, the importance you place on each is the only debate.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yep, the importance you place on each is the only debate.

In the majority of cases, the “numbers” should just reinforce the “other stuff”….but sometimes it might pick up something in the scout’s blindspot.

I think some people get the wrong end of the stick re data, and in particular “dashboards” like myself and others create. They are just a way of presenting one part of the overall picture about a player.  A picture paints a thousand words and all that.

When Harry asks me for the “data on player x”, there are several things I send him, ranging from the kind of stuff I post on here, to the team style he plays in, to every game he’s played in the last 2 seasons, etc.

Its no different than placing all your trust on a 5 minute highlights clip from an agent.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In the majority of cases, the “numbers” should just reinforce the “other stuff”….but sometimes it might pick up something in the scout’s blindspot.

I think some people get the wrong end of the stick re data, and in particular “dashboards” like myself and others create. They are just a way of presenting one part of the overall picture about a player.  A picture paints a thousand words and all that.

When Harry asks me for the “data on player x”, there are several things I send him, ranging from the kind of stuff I post on here, to the team style he plays in, to every game he’s played in the last 2 seasons, etc.

Its no different than placing all your trust on a 5 minute highlights clip from an agent.

Never sign a player from video.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Waconda said:

Never sign a player from video.

If only we’d followed that advice in recent years!!!

[firstdivision]

5 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

@firstdivision

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Ignoring the tail end of last season when Pearson took over a sinking ship and kept us up, where is any part of this seasons results within a country mile of LJ's super record of 11, yes ELEVEN, points from 72 available?

Yes we have squandered too many by conceding in the last five minutes of matches, especially at home, but in the opinion of many supporters, we are at lest now trying to play as a team and to actually attack the oppostion goal a helluve lot more than your little hero did!

I don’t have heroes. I’m a little too old and grown up for that. 
But I am very much looking forward to NP making us play-off contenders like a couple of past managers have done. 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If only we’d followed that advice in recent years!!!

They probably watched it on fast forward!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

But I am very much looking forward to NP making us play-off contenders like a couple of past managers have done. 

I’m looking forward to it too….and he will have to do it on a fraction of the budget, and that therefore will take a bit of time to achieve and patience from fans.

 

 

[italian dave]

On 22/03/2022 at 08:22, Gert Mare said:

@Harry We are suffering the effects of the Ashton era and the pandemic. What grinds with me the most on the Pearson debate is that fans love him when we win and have ‘had enough’ when we lose.

It was clearly evident when Nige joined the club that a lot of things needed changing. Nige eluded to this in one of his very first interviews. He had little time to prepare and we were still in the grip of the pandemic so he contacted players who he knew he could trust and hoped that their quality and experience of playing at the highest level would have helped to steady the sinking ship.

Simpson was a straight up failure. Nowhere near Championship level. That was a punt that turned out to be a negative, but Nige hoped he could reignite the players passion after it was known that other clubs wouldn’t touch him because of what he had done in his personal life. Mentally I think that Simpson was shot and I feel sorry for Nige on that one.

Where King was concerned I thought it was potentially a good signing at the time. This was a player who could score goals and who also was a City fan which was an added bonus. King hadn’t been playing to the standard of Championship level football but he has a great attitude and Pearson felt he would inspire the younger players in the team. Unfortunately King has ended up on the treatment table for a long time which is just unfortunate. Had he stayed fit I think we would have seen his influence as the season progressed and he became fitter.

Matty James (although blighted a bit by injury) has proven to be a good addition. Although he’s not the quickest he is a good playmaker and his reintroduction to the team recently has helped us to create a few more goal scoring opportunities. Personally I think James was a decent signing.

Rob Atkinson - Another decent signing in my opinion. Hit by Covid when already trying to get up to speed in the Championship, but who is a player that can bring the ball out of defence with his feet and in recent games is beginning to show the quality that Nige stated that he had.

George Tanner - A young committed player who was sadly struck down by a long term injury. Just sheer bad luck on that one. Nige has struggled to plug that hole ever since.

Andi Weimann - A pricey resign but also a priceless one. This is a player who earns every penny. Fitness and work rate is bang on.

Nathan Baker - Potentially a great defender when fit, but will he ever remain fit? I doubt it. Again, this was a risky punt which has ended up backfiring as he ended up back in the treatment room for an entire season. 

The rest of the squad is what Nige inherited. Not ‘his own’ squad as many fans keep saying. Getting a consistent tune out of that mob is pretty much impossible. Quite a few will be shipped out when possible but that isn’t going to happen overnight, so when fans start questioning whether Nige is the right man for the job every time we lose a game they need to remember that a lot of these players won’t ever consistently cut it at Championship level. Someone said it was down to Nige being unable to motivate players. I’ll argue all day that if a player isn’t up to it standard wise then that fault doesn’t lie at the manager’s feet (unless he signed them in the first place). Ian Holloway managed Hanham Boys and they finished 4th from bottom. He took Blackpool into the Premier League. Motivation is just a piece of the jigsaw.

We no longer win a few then lose 12 on the bounce like we did under Johnson and Holden. We have pretty much the same squad so there is a big shift in how we perform over all and at least we don’t spend large parts of the game passing the ball sideways across the back four waiting to get dispossessed. Massive improvement.

SL/JL have a clear objective. Invest in the academy and get them into the first team for sustainability. Nige is following this objective. Blooding more youngsters in one season since Danny Wilson.

Agents are self serving parasites who will bankrupt a football club by getting as much money as they can for their players. Once a player is paid handsomely their mindset is shot and you are managing egos. These players think they are too good for Bristol City and we don’t get our money’s worth.

Bottom line is that we have to invest in our scouting network for young talent and we need to be operating in the lower leagues to find potential within a more realistic budget. However frustrating the structure of the club may appear we are lucky just to have a club to support at all. 1982 is the reason why we are still here, and without SL we wouldn’t have the improved facilities that we have today. 

Avoiding League One is where we are right now and clearing up the Ashton mess is going to take time. I hope that Nige gets the backing he needs in the summer to help us build on what we have. Hopefully once some of the dead wood has been shifted we will improve our position in the league.

Nige is the most straight talking sensible man manager we have had since Alan Dicks. I’ve yet to see a single interview with him where I feel he is talking utter bollocks. If we keep him at the helm longer term I feel we will definitely improve (and within budget). 
 

 

Good post, and loads there that I agree with completely.

Just a couple of comments though:

Why the need to bring a dig at LJ into it? I just don't understand why so many of the debates on mangers on here descend into completely pointless and irrelevant comparisons between manager a and manager b. Whether you intended that or not, it's what's happened (see the posts subsequent to yours) and I don't get what relevance it has to the rest of what you're saying. Every manager is different, working in different circumstances, at different times, with different objectives and different staff around them. They (pretty much) all do the best job they can for Bristol City. Why does expressing support for one seem to require having a dig at another?

NP doesn't have a squad that's entirely his own -true - but very few managers do, especially given the average length of tenure. It's part of any manager's job (in football as elsewhere) to work with what you've got. And whilst I agree that motivation is just part of the jigsaw, it is a significant part.

Which leads to the points you make about objectives and about agents. The objective has certainly changed from the 'buy cheap, sell high' strategy that MA ran and LJ had to work with. I was encouraged that NP suggested recently the new strategy might focus not just on the academy (rather than buying in) but also on retaining our best players. I think, in retrospect, that the previous strategy had two flaws. One, we ended up with a focus that was entirely on the 'sell high' without any thought of having replacements etc lined up - and that's what broke LJ in the end. Secondly, it must be an agents dream because it establishes absolutely no buy in to Bristol City for any player - they know that they are being bought in order to be sold. I hope NP is right, but iy will be a big part of his job to get those good young players to buy into a future with Bristol City.

Lastly, I agree NP rarely talks bollocks, but that's because he rarely says anything at all! I have to admit that I've stopped listening to his pre and post match interviews for the most part - so maybe I'm being unfair - because I find them pretty inane. He just states the obvious - I can hear most of what he says post match from the people sitting around me during the game! It's the way he is, I guess. Like any City manager I'll support him because he's the City manager - and I sincerely hope you're right. he's clearly got strengths - but I don't see his interview technique as one!!

[firstdivision]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m looking forward to it too….and he will have to do it on a fraction of the budget, and that therefore will take a bit of time to achieve and patience from fans.

 

 

…although the one before the previous manger did (have to) sell about £65+m worth of players if I’ve added up Reid, Bryan, Flint, Pack, Kelly and Webster correctly. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by firstdivision

[firstdivision]

19 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Good post, and loads there that I agree with completely.

Just a couple of comments though:

Why the need to bring a dig at LJ into it? I just don't understand why so many of the debates on mangers on here descend into completely pointless and irrelevant comparisons between manager a and manager b. Whether you intended that or not, it's what's happened (see the posts subsequent to yours) and I don't get what relevance it has to the rest of what you're saying. Every manager is different, working in different circumstances, at different times, with different objectives and different staff around them. They (pretty much) all do the best job they can for Bristol City. Why does expressing support for one seem to require having a dig at another?

NP doesn't have a squad that's entirely his own -true - but very few managers do, especially given the average length of tenure. It's part of any manager's job (in football as elsewhere) to work with what you've got. And whilst I agree that motivation is just part of the jigsaw, it is a significant part.

Which leads to the points you make about objectives and about agents. The objective has certainly changed from the 'buy cheap, sell high' strategy that MA ran and LJ had to work with. I was encouraged that NP suggested recently the new strategy might focus not just on the academy (rather than buying in) but also on retaining our best players. I think, in retrospect, that the previous strategy had two flaws. One, we ended up with a focus that was entirely on the 'sell high' without any thought of having replacements etc lined up - and that's what broke LJ in the end. Secondly, it must be an agents dream because it establishes absolutely no buy in to Bristol City for any player - they know that they are being bought in order to be sold. I hope NP is right, but iy will be a big part of his job to get those good young players to buy into a future with Bristol City.

Lastly, I agree NP rarely talks bollocks, but that's because he rarely says anything at all! I have to admit that I've stopped listening to his pre and post match interviews for the most part - so maybe I'm being unfair - because I find them pretty inane. He just states the obvious - I can hear most of what he says post match from the people sitting around me during the game! It's the way he is, I guess. Like any City manager I'll support him because he's the City manager - and I sincerely hope you're right. he's clearly got strengths - but I don't see his interview technique as one!!

I agree. The digs at LJ are tedious. He wasn’t perfect. He made mistakes. But he helped to give us some good times as well as some frustrating times.
He had some cash but the players sold while he was manager generated plenty of cash too - and weakened the team. We should move on. I find the notion that LJ caused NP’s problems - and somehow makes him immune to questioning - increasingly laughable. And a cop out.

Surely he’s been more hamstring by COVID-19 than LJ. 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Which leads to the points you make about objectives and about agents. The objective has certainly changed from the 'buy cheap, sell high' strategy that MA ran and LJ had to work with.

I think it shifted during their tenure from “buy cheap, sell high” to “buy, sell for more”, a subtle difference, and it was this that most worried me, especially as very few actually achieved that.  No blame needs apportioning in this thread, just a statement that this strategy only needed some external event or a lack of sellable players to cause it to fail horribly.  Firstly we had Covid.  That did cause a downturn in revenues, that bit is obvious.  The transfer market also took a downturn too.  But having said that, if we look honestly at our squad, how many of our current squad could you sell (in the old inflating transfer market) for more than we paid?  We can all have a stab, and there will be the odd one that would make a bit, but nothing of the sort of Webster (£3.5m to £20m).  All of that was swallowed up by the ones that didn’t.

What it has done is re-emphasise the need to focus on the Academy….which you state below.

I was encouraged that NP suggested recently the new strategy might focus not just on the academy (rather than buying in) but also on retaining our best players. I think, in retrospect, that the previous strategy had two flaws. One, we ended up with a focus that was entirely on the 'sell high' without any thought of having replacements etc lined up - and that's what broke LJ in the end.

Yep, you are never really growing the squad together if do what we did.  We were along the right track, 17/18 had morphed from 14/15 by keeping the best players together, and adding gradually. 18/19 although not pretty on the eye was the culmination of those “two squads”, albeit not quite good enough to finish above 8th. Then we abandoned the plan.

We sold Kelly early summer for a “vanity profit” to go in that season’s accounts, then Webster and Pack.  We spent big…£25m+ on 15+ players, losing Brownhill too.

I know you can’t always choose when players leave, but because we’d loaned the 3 Chelsea players in 18/19, buying them didn’t actually improve us.

The plan was by then not a plan, but random.  It cost Johnson his job.

We also had no Academy coming through.  Covid hides this to some impact.

Secondly, it must be an agents dream because it establishes absolutely no buy in to Bristol City for any player - they know that they are being bought in order to be sold.

Very good point.

I hope NP is right, but iy will be a big part of his job to get those good young players to buy into a future with Bristol City.

Yep, and it’s why you probably need to be managing them and their agent every 6 months, 12 months max with new contracts.  You have to keep them onside, whilst showing them the team is growing with them.  That’s not easy.  How do you keep Semenyo, Massengo and Scott happy next season?  We have to make progress.  It probably needs 2-3 astute signings to turn the team into something more mid-table.  That might be enough to keep them happy, but needs a kick-on again the following season.  It’s doable.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

…although the one before the previous manger did (have to) sell about £65+m worth of players if I’ve added up Reid, Bryan, Flint, Pack, Kelly and Webster correctly. 

The reality of that is that it cost us more than £65m to replace them with worse.  That’s the flipside of that coin.  Not having a go at you, it’s just a bug-bear of mine when only one half of the argument is put forward. Sorry

The 4 seasons from 2016 to 2019 (minus 5 games of Holden) we spent £155m in Wages and Amortisation.  We lost £104m in those 4 seasons, without those sales.

[firstdivision]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The reality of that is that it cost us more than £65m to replace them with worse.  That’s the flipside of that coin.  Not having a go at you, it’s just a bug-bear of mine when only one half of the argument is put forward. Sorry

The 4 seasons from 2016 to 2019 (minus 5 games of Holden) we spent £155m in Wages and Amortisation.  We lost £104m in those 4 seasons, without those sales.

Can you always replace players with ones of similar quality or similar attributes though? Webster and Brownhill, for example. 
Plus, a manager can be hampered by selling players he doesn’t want to sell. As NP will probably experience this summer.

The other thing is that NP - and most other EFL clubs - are/will be operating in a market that has changed radically, one in which the bottom has fallen out. There could/should be some relative bargains compared to LJ’s time. So not easy to compare like for like. 
We were spend happy in the ‘good times’ before COVID-19 changed quite a bit and when MA was ‘in control’. 
I guess my overall point is that I find the constant and general snide remarks about LJ a bit tedious. Let’s move on. Face reality now. It’s reasonable to question NP as we discussed recently about comparative squad strength between the first half of last season and this season. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by firstdivision

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Can you always replace players with ones of similar quality or similar attributes though? Webster and Brownhill, for example. 
Plus, a manager can be hampered by selling players he doesn’t want to sell. As NP will probably experience this summer.

The other thing is that NP - and most other EFL clubs - are/will be operating in a market that has changed radically, one in which the bottom has fallen out. There could/should be some relative bargains compared to LJ’s time. So not easy to compare like for like. 
We were spend happy in the ‘good times’ before COVID-19 changed quite a bit and when MA was ‘in control’. 
I guess my overall point is that I find the constant and general snide remarks about LJ a bit tedious. Let’s move on. Face reality now. It’s reasonable to question NP as we discussed recently about comparative squad strength between the first half of last season and this season. 

 

Yeah, we should move on from LJ, but you know he lives in all of our heads!!!

My view was he did good things and bad things.

With all these things it’s rarely black or white.

What is important for me going forward is:

- a coherent recruitment strategy (imho it should be low cost and focussed (not purely though) on younger players)

- a style of play aligned to the above and vice-versa

Until this summer’s window is over it’s really difficult to judge how far into that journey we are.  My gut feel is that the foundations will be firm enough to build on post-summer, not pre-summer.  That might sound like further behind than we would like (it probably is) but we can’t really know until we know what is happening with Massengo, Semenyo and Scott, nor until we know about Palmer, Wells, Kalas, O’Dowda etc either.  I’m gonna enjoy the comings and goings.