The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Spot on... all we ever hear about is the restrictions of FFP and that our hands are tied regarding recruitment, so whats the point in having a team of experts if we can't afford to buy them!

So that we can respond by having various lists of targets at various price points with players who are varying stages of their career.

No point in selling 'x' player for 'y' money if there isn't a plan to replace them. Could be we get 3 buttons and a Mars bar, in which case you would expect the head of recruitment to have options that fit with that spend, could be we sell someone for a zillion quid and the manager wants someone proven rather than potential.

[Kid in the Riot]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

No stirring. Just huge concern that we have an amateur recruitment department. 
Be honest - do you think a club with Premier League ambition should have a recruitment department being run by a handful of data analysts with absolutely zero pro-game experience? 

I don't think it matters that the data analysists don't have any pro-game experience. Luton's head of technical recruitment (so same position as Gilespy) is Jay Socik aka Blades Analytics who was basically an amateur data analyst with a Twitter account. I can't remember which Scottish club it was now, but one appointed a 17 year old Indian kid from Mumbai as a data analyst. Most data analysts will be exactly that, and not played the game to any decent level. 

It's obviously key to have pro-game input alongside this. At Luton it's actually their assistant manager Mick Harford who is also Head of recruitment. 

At the moment, our recruitment is a combined committee effort between the technical team, Nige, Fleming, Rennie, Gould, Jon L. Clearly, it's Nige and Fleming (previously Downing and Simpson) providing the main football experience input. 

It's also pretty obvious Nige is calling the shots, a quick look at summer recruitment confirms that. 

The current situation is not ideal and I have no doubts recruitment is an area (along with plenty of others) we could be doing much better in. There would appear to be a vacancy for head of recruitment, how far down the line we are in terms of appointing someone, I don't know. But clearly it has to be the right person. Nige has only been in FT post since the end of last season, only 5 months or so is not actually very long to try and fix these systemic problems that may well run deep. 

I think he's going as fast as he can but clearly doesn't want the club to rush into an appointment they may regret. Maybe we are waiting for Walsh? 

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Of course there is talent out there but any player who shows promise in the 9th tier of English football will already have numerous clubs, much bigger than us, looking at them.

I think we missed a big trick not bringing in 1 or 2 Prem youngsters on loan in the summer.

Which ones?

[42nite]

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I reckon Walsh may already be advising on a formal, or more likely informal, basis.

As he's working in the MLS, I wouldn't see a conflict with him recommending a couple of players to Nige, as very few players would be interested in going to the US as wages are higher here. 

Atkinson and Tanner are the types of player that I don't think would have been picked up by our recruitment team because their career stats weren't particularly outstanding prior to joining. 

Both those players do though very much fit the profile of Walsh signings, who like Nige, I'm sure has a network of scouts that he knows and speaks to regularly about certain players. 

In terms of who's speaking to agents, that is of course Richard Gould's job, not Sean Gillespy. If agent's want to tout their players to the club then they need to phone Gould! 

That's a good theory Kid.

I keep hearing that Atkinson and Tanner are the sort of signings we should be making.... So somebody's doing something right...somewhere.

 

[Rob k]

4 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Of course there is talent out there but any player who shows promise in the 9th tier of English football will already have numerous clubs, much bigger than us, looking at them.

I think we missed a big trick not bringing in 1 or 2 Prem youngsters on loan in the summer.

Watkins ended up at Brentford, we could have had him 2 seasons before that 

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I know its not just a ‘bad 7 days’ Harry, that was my point.

If the past 7 days have given you kittens, best take a break for a little bit as the rebuild needed will no doubt see other ‘bad 7 days’ along the way.

Time to buckle up!

Sorry. I misinterpreted your post. 
You are correct. 
It’s a long rebuild ahead. But it should have started in Summer 21, with a professional recruitment team in place. We’re already playing catch up from where we should have been. 

[Harry]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't think it matters that the data analysists don't have any pro-game experience. Luton's head of technical recruitment (so same position as Gilespy) is Jay Socik aka Blades Analytics who was basically an amateur data analyst with a Twitter account. I can't remember which Scottish club it was now, but one appointed a 17 year old Indian kid from Mumbai as a data analyst. Most data analysts will be exactly that, and not played the game to any decent level. 

It's obviously key to have pro-game input alongside this. At Luton it's actually their assistant manager Mick Harford who is also Head of recruitment. 

At the moment, our recruitment is a combined committee effort between the technical team, Nige, Fleming, Rennie, Gould, Jon L. Clearly, it's Nige and Fleming (previously Downing and Simpson) providing the main football experience input. 

It's also pretty obvious Nige is calling the shots, a quick look at summer recruitment confirms that. 

The current situation is not ideal and I have no doubts recruitment is an area (along with plenty of others) we could be doing much better in. There would appear to be a vacancy for head of recruitment, how far down the line we are in terms of appointing someone, I don't know. But clearly it has to be the right person. Nige has only been in FT post since the end of last season, only 5 months or so is not actually very long to try and fix these systemic problems that may well run deep. 

I think he's going as fast as he can but clearly doesn't want the club to rush into an appointment they may regret. Maybe we are waiting for Walsh? 

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 
 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

 

10 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

We are between a rock (the stultifying safety and security of SL, going around in ever-depressing circles) and a hard place (the great unknown of Bristol City post-Lansdown, which could go tits up or better than expected. But if you had to put your money on it, it'd be "tits up" under some dodgy overseas ownership).

 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, marmite said:

Just a couple of points to throw in here with no agenda either way. 

Richard Gould, our CEO, is heavily involved with recruitment as he stated at  the Senior Reds lunch last Thursday. He also stated that the Brentford model was not one he wanted our club to follow as it is not all it appears on the surface!! He didn't elaborate on that so judge for yourself. 

 

 

Gould wasn’t here for the majority of the transfer window and his role would be more on the financial side of things anyway. 
He’s not someone who is suitable for the head of recruitment position. He’s good for a ceo position and will undoubtedly have input into recruitment from the financial perspective but he’s not the person who is going to be identifying players. 
We’re missing a key part of the process. 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

Good post but for me I’d ask what was your expectations for this season?

Mine was a season of low quality with an attempt at making us harder to beat, we are still a way off that but slowly getting there.

What we don’t know what the culture behind the scenes is like, and this is why NP has gone to tried and tested men, it may not work on the pitch but if things are that badly broken we need to start somewhere, it no secret that NP is clearly not happy with some of them, remember recruitment is about being able to shift some on which he’s clearly not been able to do.

As another mate alluded too, NP may not be here when we start seeing his work come to fruition . 

 

 

My expectations for this season are low. Hence why I made the point early in my initial post that Nige has to stay. It’s a long rebuild. But we can’t ignore the fact that the rebuild is already behind schedule because we’ve had 1 window already where we’ve signed 7 players, 5 of which are expensive, 4 of which were unnecessary. 
And the reason was because we have no one with any experience in charge of recruitment. We had a summer of missed calls from agencies and were literally bottom of the list when we did finally want to talk about anyone. Too late to the party. It can’t happen again. 

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

Yeah, Luton only set their new department up in February mind!

LJ set ours up back in 2016.

This is exactly what I'm saying Harry, data analysts should not be fielding phone calls from agents and I have no idea why an agent would want to speak to someone like Gilhespy.

Richard Gould conducted all of our summer transfer business with agents, that's what he told me at least...

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 
 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

[The Original OTIB]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

Job for Fevs?

[Henry]

@Harry would you take a job from City if offered? Have you or your team approached the club since Ashton left?

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Harry said:

Gould wasn’t here for the majority of the transfer window and his role would be more on the financial side of things anyway. 

Just had to double check this....the window opened on 9 June and Gould joined on 22 June. Then we signed all our players.

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

 

Think we forget about Brentford’s model & find our own one..

That's going to take new/fresh ownership, isn't it? To find our own approach to this that works even half as well as Brentford's is going to require a fresh start from the top, fresh thinking, new ideas. It's not going to come from SL now, or anyone he appoints. Is it?

If SL had an original or brilliant idea on this front, it would've happened by now. You would think. There's not an ounce of originality or ingenuity or inspiration at Bristol City, currently, not even with Nige there. Is the impression I'm getting.

To do any better than this, or this era (2008; 2017-19) we need to move on from SL; to avoid being disastrously worse, we need to cling on to SL as long as we can.

[Harry]

11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yeah, Luton only set their new department up in February mind!

LJ set ours up back in 2016.

This is exactly what I'm saying Harry, data analysts should not be fielding phone calls from agents and I have no idea why an agent would want to speak to someone like Gilhespy.

Richard Gould conducted all of our summer transfer business with agents, that's what he told me at least...

Given he didn’t start work here until 20th June. Weimann had already extended. James, King & Atkinson were  all signed 1st-3rd July. 
Gould may well have been involved in the final financials on their deals but if he told you he was involved in agent talks from the very start he’s lying to you. 
If you seriously believe that we hadn’t already spoken to James before 20th June and the signing was all sealed and delivered 10 days later, well. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Harry

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Hobby for Fevs?

Corrected!

A job for the younger person without a family and with lower wage expectations.

Now if I was a few years older and thinking of semi-retirement now wouldn’t that be a nice thought.

Either that or I’ll be fighting @Clevedon Redfor the minibus driver role!!! 

[CodeRed]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Either that or I’ll be fighting @Clevedon Redfor the minibus driver role!!! 

And Robbored surely...

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, Henry said:

@Harry would you take a job from City if offered? Have you or your team approached the club since Ashton left?

Not any more thanks Henry. We need proven experience in the role. However, I am 100% of the opinion that a HoR should utilise their fan base to the max. We have fans based all over the country, able to watch matches anywhere and everywhere.  We should have a system where fans can refer players into the HoR - maybe even be given ‘official’ accreditation and can walk into Grimsby v Halifax with a BCFC scout badge, free of charge, as an official scout. So long as they provide a specific report with specific criteria, not just go for a jolly. 
Such a system suddenly gives you hundreds of potential scouts and zero cost to the club. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Harry

[Kid in the Riot]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Given he didn’t start work here until 20th June. Weimann had already extended. James, King & Atkinson were  all signed 1st-3rd July. 
Gould may well have been involved in the final financials on their deals but if he told you he was involved in agent talks from the very start he’s lying to you. 
If you seriously believe that we hadn’t already spoken to James before 20th June and the signing was all sealed and delivered 10 days later, well. 

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

[Rob k]

27 minutes ago, Harry said:

My expectations for this season are low. Hence why I made the point early in my initial post that Nige has to stay. It’s a long rebuild. But we can’t ignore the fact that the rebuild is already behind schedule because we’ve had 1 window already where we’ve signed 7 players, 5 of which are expensive, 4 of which were unnecessary. 
And the reason was because we have no one with any experience in charge of recruitment. We had a summer of missed calls from agencies and were literally bottom of the list when we did finally want to talk about anyone. Too late to the party. It can’t happen again. 

Im told that Simpson, King and Baker are not on big wages and we obviously didn’t pay a fee for wieman, he’s also one that divides opinion so he may well be money well spent for some In wages and one I’d suspect you could move on if needed, James i think has done ok as has Tanner and Atkinson. 
However, as i don’t do payroll i have no Idea of these players wages so i imagine a lot of what im told is guesswork 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Rob k

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

He said he’d been doing some work here prior to official start date…just like Ashton was at Ipswich. 

[stortfordred]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

Was he involved in signing Elijah Adebayo? Guy had loan spells with Swindon and Cheltenham, has a 1 goal in 2 game ratio this season and looks a real handful. Just the kind of player our recruitment team should have spotted.

 

[The Original OTIB]

9 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

Was he involved in signing Elijah Adebayo? Guy had loan spells with Swindon and Cheltenham, has a 1 goal in 2 game ratio this season and looks a real handful. Just the kind of player our recruitment team should have spotted.

 

Elijah Anuoluwapo Oluwaferanmi Oluwatomi Oluwalana Ayomikulehin Adebayo. Try getting all that on a shirt.

[Harry]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

As said, he was no doubt involved in the financials at the closure of the deals but he certainly isn’t the person who would have been hosting meetings with agents throughout the spring and summer, ie, way before 22nd June, when the real player identification and availability was happening. We were behind the 8-ball in the last window. I’m just very very keen to make sure we aren’t behind it again. And we need a HoR to make sure the professionalism and experience is there. And we need a more robust scouting set up to aid that. 

[The Original OTIB]

58 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not any more thanks Henry. We need proven experience in the role. However, I am 100% of the opinion that a HoR should utilise their fan base to the max. We have fans based all over the country, able to watch matches anywhere and everywhere.  We should have a system where fans can refer players into the HoR - maybe even be given ‘official’ accreditation and can walk into Grimsby v Halifax with a BCFC scout badge, free of charge, as an official scout. So long as they provide a specific report with specific criteria, not just go for a jolly. 
Such a system suddenly gives you hundreds of potential scouts and zero cost to the club. 

Surprised this lad isn't playing at a higher level, by way of example: Kabongo Tshimanga. Know much about him? Pace and power.

Edited October 25, 2021 by The Original OTIB
spelling

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

As said, he was no doubt involved in the financials at the closure of the deals but he certainly isn’t the person who would have been hosting meetings with agents throughout the spring and summer, ie, way before 22nd June, when the real player identification and availability was happening.

I'd imagine there was very, very little of that happening given the first few signings through the door were Weimann, James, King and Atkinson. Only the latter would've required any real legwork. All three of the others very well-known to either Nige or the club.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'd imagine there was very, very little of that happening given the first few signings through the door were Weimann, James, King and Atkinson. Only the latter would've required any real legwork. All three of the others very well-known to either Nige or the club.

And that’s exactly the point Will. The donkey work was not being done early enough to make any impact in the summer window. 
Nige had to rely on very little support from the existing structure. Clearly the 3 Leicester connections were all his own work, but I’m reliably informed that Atkinson was also a lot of his own work too. 
Nige may not have signed Weimann and King were he in conversations from March onwards with his recruitment head, who in turn had been in daily conversations with the people in charge of placing those players at new clubs. There was plenty of transactions made in the summer window that would’ve been easily within our budget and desires. But we weren’t even in the conversation. 
Don’t get me wrong, Gould’s arrival is a positive. But he’s still not the person filling the massive void in the recruitment structure. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Surprised this lad isn't playing at a higher level, by way of example: Kabongo Tshimanga. No much about him? Pace and power.

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”.