The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Robbored]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

We need proven experience in the role. However, I am 100% of the opinion that a HoR should utilise their fan base to the max. We have fans based all over the country, able to watch matches anywhere and everywhere.  We should have a system where fans can refer players into the HoR - maybe even be given ‘official’ accreditation and can walk into Grimsby v Halifax with a BCFC scout badge, free of charge, as an official scout. So long as they provide a specific report with specific criteria, not just go for a jolly. 
Such a system suddenly gives you hundreds of potential scouts and zero cost to the club. 

I can’t see how that would work if you have hundreds of amateurs reporting to the club about various players. By amateurs I mean fans who have little idea on what to look for in any particular player to warrant recommendation. i imagine the scouting set up would be overwhelmed……..

Nice idea but not practical.
 

[Lrrr]

13 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I can’t see how that would work if you have hundreds of amateurs reporting to the club about various players. By amateurs I mean fans who have little idea on what to look for in any particular player to warrant recommendation. i imagine the scouting set up would be overwhelmed……..

Nice idea but not practical.
 

Because you only need to look at one for 5 minutes to realise who has an eye for it and know who you can count on moving forwards

[marmite]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Because you only need to look at one for 5 minutes to realise who has an eye for it and know who you can count on moving forwards

 We have all spotted a youngster even in our own club who we thought was gonna be a good prospect and would have recommended them. How many of them have made it to the top? That doesn't make us unreliable though. There are hundreds of reasons why a player doesn't kick on. That doesn't make the scout wrong to put them forward.

 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, marmite said:

 We have all spotted a youngster even in our own club who we thought was gonna be a good prospect and would have recommended them. How many of them have made it to the top? That doesn't make us unreliable though. There are hundreds of reasons why a player doesn't kick on. That doesn't make the scout wrong to put them forward.

 

If that ‘scout’ is an amateur then it is wrong. How can a club like Bristol City follow up what would be hundreds of recommendations by sending a qualified scout? 
 

The club just don’t have that many.

[REDOXO]

17 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

What have the Romans ever done for us?

New stands, New bars, new training facilities, New…..FFS I can not be bothered. 

[RedRock]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

If that ‘scout’ is an amateur then it is wrong. How can a club like Bristol City follow up what would be hundreds of recommendations by sending a qualified scout? 
 

The club just don’t have that many.

Interesting.

I think some of us mentioned Alex Russell, then at Torquay, on here. Now, whether coincidence or not, that summer he was signed ( think it was the time that Tinman was a follower of OTIB).

Ok, Alex had a couple of injury issues with us but a decent enough signing.
 

Personally, I don’t see an issue with fan involvement, as long as they’re knowledgable about football, key player attributes and have an eye for a player, what’s the risk/cost?

Pity some of us in Devon who have watched Exeter City didn’t have the ear of the decision makers at The Gate over the last few years.

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Personally, I don’t see an issue with fan involvement, as long as they’re knowledgable about football, key player attributes and have an eye for a player, what’s the risk/cost?

Too many football fans think they’re knowledgeable about the beautiful game but in reality their knowledge is limited and would have no idea in what to look for in a potential player.

The risk is that the club would be overwhelmed if fans were recommending players. Better to rely on a proper scouting network.

As for Russell - his ability was well known before he signed for City.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

 We have all spotted a youngster even in our own club who we thought was gonna be a good prospect and would have recommended them. How many of them have made it to the top? That doesn't make us unreliable though. There are hundreds of reasons why a player doesn't kick on. That doesn't make the scout wrong to put them forward.

 

And we see plenty of youngsters picked by professional scouts / Academy employees who don’t make it either.

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

If that ‘scout’ is an amateur then it is wrong. How can a club like Bristol City follow up what would be hundreds of recommendations by sending a qualified scout? 
 

The club just don’t have that many.

Most scouts are amateur, being paid just expenses.  It’s called having a scouting network, not everyone is a fully fledged club employee like Geoff Twentyman Sr.  If you want coverage, you can’t pay 300 scouts a salary of £25k p.a. You need “amateurs”!

As explained, you sift out the rubbish and look for the “amateurs” who look like they have an aptitude, the ones as I said in a earlier post that can describe the attributes of the player, etc, that show an appreciation of the game and potential needs to be a pro footballer.

Worth Reading Michael Calvin’s The Nowhere Men, it’s all about scouts, from the grass roots, to the orange tanned Steve Jones….yes the same one who was here.

[054123]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And we see plenty of youngsters picked by professional scouts / Academy employees who don’t make it either.

Most scouts are amateur, being paid just expenses.  It’s called having a scouting network, not everyone is a fully fledged club employee like Geoff Twentyman Sr.  If you want coverage, you can’t pay 300 scouts a salary of £25k p.a. You need “amateurs”!

As explained, you sift out the rubbish and look for the “amateurs” who look like they have an aptitude, the ones as I said in a earlier post that can describe the attributes of the player, etc, that show an appreciation of the game and potential needs to be a pro footballer.

Worth Reading Michael Calvin’s The Nowhere Men, it’s all about scouts, from the grass roots, to the orange tanned Steve Jones….yes the same one who was here.

Is Steve Jones a good scout then?

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Is Steve Jones a good scout then?

Dunno, but he’s been 1st team opposition analyst for Rotherham and Millwall, currently at Cardiff.

[Waconda]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And we see plenty of youngsters picked by professional scouts / Academy employees who don’t make it either.

 

Nearly all in fact.

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Is Steve Jones a good scout then?

He is a former professional footballer so he’ll definitely know what to look for in any promising player. My point is that your average football fan lacks the necessary skills to do that.

[Waconda]

Just now, Robbored said:

He is a former professional footballer so he’ll definitely know what to look for in any promising player. My point is that your average football fan lacks the necessary skills to do that.

Absolutely. 

[Davefevs]

We aren’t talking about letting your average fan scout for you though, we are talking about the ones who show an aptitude for it, perhaps doing their PFSA qualifications to show willing etc.

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Who's who

Sean Gilhespy leads the team and weekly recruitment meetings include Nigel Pearson and his coaching team, plus CEO Richard Gould and others such as chairman Jon Lansdown, who takes an interest, as well as other board members who will drop in from time to time.

The team behind the team:

• Dan Calcott - recruitment analyst
• Chester Perks - recruitment analyst
• Simon Cozens - recruitment analyst
• James Borrett - data analyst
• Rishickesh Ramesh - data analyst
• Fraser Franks - scout
• Allan Gemmell - scout
• Martin O'Connor - scout
• Several interns, studying the Championship to begin (two doing their Masters in Performance Analysis at Bristol City for 12 months)

I’m not really very comfortable of people’s names put on a faceless forum by a faceless poster. 
 

Whatever your rationale for doing so, it is completely unnecessary. 

[!james]

3 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not really very comfortable of people’s names put on a faceless forum by a faceless poster. 
 

Whatever your rationale for doing so, it is completely unnecessary. 

They are copied and pasted from the Bristol Post article

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

[CodeRed]

2 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not really very comfortable of people’s names put on a faceless forum by a faceless poster. 
 

Whatever your rationale for doing so, it is completely unnecessary. 

He's just cut and pasted from the Bristol Live (EP) article already linked in this thread.  Nothing not already out there...and no I've never heard of any of them either!

 

[KegCity]

4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I don’t remember that.  Benefit of hindsight?

I (and others) have been calling for it for years. Can go back through any of the big threads towards the end of the Holden era if you want an idea of how many people wanted one appointed.

It would make a lot of sense. A long term appointment (feels like something Tinnion might end doing in the future) would hopefully give us better cohesion as a club if they could help bridge any gaps between the manager/playing staff and the board/Lansdown. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

He's just cut and pasted from the Bristol Live (EP) article already linked in this thread.  Nothing not already out there...and no I've never heard of any of them either!

 

Martin O’Connor had a long playing career with the likes of Birmingham, Walsall, other clubs around the Midlands.

Allan Gemmill appears to have been a scout at Crystal Palace….I’d not heard of him tbh.

Fraser Franks played for Wimbledon, Newport and Luton amongst others.

[Robbored]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We aren’t talking about letting your average fan scout for you though, we are talking about the ones who show an aptitude for it, perhaps doing their PFSA qualifications to show willing etc.

I think Harry was tho………..

That was my entire point Dave. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Robbored

[054123]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Dunno, but he’s been 1st team opposition analyst for Rotherham and Millwall, currently at Cardiff.

It was a genuine question  

Just wondered if by your name checking him if missed something

[Redrascal2]

22 hours ago, Harry said:

I’ve had a long break from otib. But I’ve conceded and just had to come back given the debate of late. 
 

Firstly, let me be quite clear on this. I don’t want to see Pearson sacked, but he has an awful lot to prove, for me.
 

However, there is something that I’ve not seen mentioned in the Pearson debate/state of the club debate in these recent turgid weeks. 
 

Recruitment. 
And specifically, the Recruitment Department. 
 

Let me explain. When Pearson arrived, we’d been a few years down the line of a pretty horrendous player recruitment process. You all know my thoughts on Ashton (and I’m glad you all finally saw what I was telling you all 4/5 years ago!). 
The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else. He was the CEO, but was essentially acting as the Director Of Football, the Head of Recruitment and the Chief Scout, all rolled into one. Too much power for one man. Yes we know, we’ve been through that story all summer and autumn. 
 

Once he departed, what were we left with. Well, you’ll see it was made very clear in the Post article a couple of weeks ago. We have a chap called Sean Gilhespy and he has a team of 3 or 4 data analysts and a couple of interns. Yep. That’s your lot. Gilhespy himself was historically a data analyst too. 
So in short, we’ve got 4 guys and a couple of unpaid uni-leavers who all come from a background of number crunching and data slicing. Yes, they’ve all done their uni courses in football analytics, but none of them have any experience of professional football, nor of actual player talent identification. 

Gilhespy is now the person who is taking the calls from the agents and is the first port of call for any recruitment queries, player availability, transfer talk etc. 
Now, if I was to tell you that I know a number of agents in the game, all with a healthy bounty of players, and I said to you that Mr Gilhespy doesn’t answer his phone or his emails, you might be pretty disappointed. 
I have no cross to bear and no reason to doubt that Mr Gilhespy is a nice enough chap and may well be a good data cruncher, but he is not the person who should be talking to agents about player transfers. I know through these agents with whom I have contact that he is seen as utterly useless and completely out of his depth. Data cruncher - no problem. Acting Head of Recruitment - wow!!! Unreal. 
 

I think, though I can’t be 100% sure, that we are probably the only professional football club in the country who doesn’t currently have a Head of Recruitment or Chief Scout. That is the real scandal that is currently going on at our club. We’ve got a chap who did a uni course on football data analysis as our Head of Recruitment and 3 of his data crunching pals running the show. We’ve got an absolute amateur in charge of taking calls from agents, which he invariably doesn’t answer. It’s an utter utter shambles. 
Steve Lansdown seems to be happy continuing with this amateur recruitment set up that Ashton left him with, a set up which SL is probably happy with as he thinks we’re finding gems from an in-house database and not having to talk to those dirty agents touting their players around. Oh, how sweet and innocent. **** your morals Steve. This is football. You alone are not going to change the moral fibre of this sport. If you want to run a recruitment department which ignores player agents then you’ll always be 24th in line in this division for a players signature. 
 

Let’s bring this back to Pearson. 
We all know the Leicester story. Nige was a strong manager, with trusted assistants, but backed up with a head of recruitment in Steve Walsh, who pretty much signed the title winning team. 
The recruitment position is so so essential. Without Steve Walsh and Craig Shakespeare, Nige doesn’t put that Leicester team in the position he got them. That’s not to play down his achievements, Nige clearly had a major influence on that squad, but he was not responsible for putting that squad together and he also had an assistant coach, without whom he hasn’t really achieved any modicum of success (for reference, look at Pearson’s record with and without Shakespeare). It ain’t very pretty. 

Fast forward to February 2021. Pearson joins us. It’s clear that Ashton is departing. It’s clear that Pearson is a manager who needs his trusted back room team. We know for an absolute fact that Pearson is not a man who likes/wants to deal with agents. It’s clear that we are under financial constraints. 
Given all of that, what’s the most important thing we needed. Yep, you’ve guessed it - a Head of Recruitment. 
I must confess, I was absolutely amazed that we didn’t manage to bring Steve Walsh in. He should have been the first person SL needed to call once Ashton was on his way. 
We’ve left a huge void in one of the most important roles at a football club. Even more so given what was required and the financial situation. 
 

Ultimately we’ve made 7 signings so far under Nige. 3 of them were clearly his own call from the Leicester connections. Obviously 2 young prospects with very very little pro football on their cv’s. But we have to add Weimann and Baker too, both of whom should easily have been released. Both were on high wages and hadn’t really proven anything over the previous season or 2. Yes, they both took pay cuts, but they are still incredibly handsomely paid and still 2 of the higher earners we have. 
Both should have gone. But the problem was this - we had no head of recruitment. So we had no idea of any other players we could realistically have brought in to replace them. So I’d imagine Nige had to reluctantly accept their return - there was nothing else on the table!! 
 

If we’d employed a proper experienced head of recruitment when Nige joined in Feb, and also employed some proper experienced talent spotters (ie Scouts and a Chief Scout) to actually physically get out there and watch 10-20 games a week, rather than crunch some numbers on a computer, we might’ve given Nige a very different looking squad this season. 
 

The simple fact that we have a Manager who doesn’t like the recruitment/agent side of the game, a new CEO who isn’t particularly responsible or experienced in that part of the game and a data crunching head of recruitment who ignores calls from agents, topped off with an owner who seems to actively encourage us to steer away from those pesky agents and try to implement our own holier than thou model, basically puts us at the bottom of the list for player availability. 
There were plentiful deals that could have been had in the summer had we acted early enough or shown any semblance of interest in, and we could’ve improved this squad without having to shell out high wages to 2 returning players and 2 other 35 year old has-beens. 
The fact there is a tight financial situation is the very reason we shouldn’t have signed Simpson, King, Baker & Weimann. It’s the very reason we needed proper experienced people running the summer recruitment and dealing with the players and agents, the very reason we should’ve been in conversation for the best deals we could possibly get rather than ignoring the calls and thinking we could do things our own way. 
 

Nige has effectively signed 7 players. 5 or 6 of them featured in pretty much every game this season. So whilst this is still far from being “nigels squad”, half of the outfield first team each week IS his squad. 
Therefore, yes, we can begin to judge Nige on this teams performances as he has 7 of his own players around him and he really really should have been doing much better than what’s gone so far.

But, in his defence, he’s being handed an absolute shit-show of a recruitment team. 
 

My thoughts - Pearson will be given time. No doubt.  But he should rightly take some flak for performances this season. He really should be getting more fight from these players. But, we are going absolutely nowhere - correction, we are going backwards at a rate of knots, until we get a proper recruitment team on board. 

Lansdown needs to pull out whatever stops he can, and bring in a Head of Recruitment as a matter of absolute urgency. This needs to be supplemented by a host of scouts (not just 2 or 3 part-timers, we need countless bodies in every area of the country, an army of scouts watching 20+ games a week between them and reporting to a Chief) - actual physical scouts going and watching players and having conversations with agents and other scouts at games - it’s called networking. And you can’t get that from looking at a bunch of numbers on a screen. Without that network, there is zero relationships, and without relationships with agents, you are bottom of the list when it comes to an agent placing their player with a new club. 

I have zero problem with the data analysts. It’s a perfectly valid part of the modern game. But they shouldn’t be the first port of call on player recruitment. They should be there to back up any scouting reports, not to be the instigators of player ID. And Sean the number crunching shy-guy certainly shouldn’t be the person responsible for speaking to the agents. 
 

This is where change is paramount. And must be effected immediately. 
Everything else that’s being argued about on here is purely secondary - without a properly functioning recruitment team, we will go backwards, fast. 
 

Anyway - good to be back.

Reading your post was compelling and depressing. Why would Pearson come in to the job with so much stacked against him. Do you think he was not fully aware of the task he faced. After reading this I cannot see how he or any other manager can turn us around.

[REDOXO]

28 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not really very comfortable of people’s names put on a faceless forum by a faceless poster. 
 

Whatever your rationale for doing so, it is completely unnecessary. 

 

24 minutes ago, !james said:

They are copied and pasted from the Bristol Post article

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

 

22 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

He's just cut and pasted from the Bristol Live (EP) article already linked in this thread.  Nothing not already out there...and no I've never heard of any of them either!

 

There in lay the problem. If you refer to a source and link to it then ok. But In this case the post was direct naming individuals. The excuse being as above it’s already out there. 
 

Im not completely sure what already out there means but in this case almost no one on this forum would know or care. However in this case these people have their names put up here in order to justify a cheap response to another poster. 
 

In case no one has noticed the atmosphere here and at the WBA Game was toxic and the naming of those guys here in that atmosphere in that context is inexcusable for no reason whatsoever but as a response to a two bit post, they are just employees of the club! 

Some need to ******* grow up! 

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Too many football fans think they’re knowledgeable about the beautiful game but in reality their knowledge is limited and would have no idea in what to look for in a potential player.

The risk is that the club would be overwhelmed if fans were recommending players. Better to rely on a proper scouting network.

As for Russell - his ability was well known before he signed for City.

Think your first sentence accurately describes how City have ‘scouted’ over the last 5 years! Even I would put myself forward of having a greater knowledge and a likely better hit rate than either Steve and Mark Ashton. Remember, these men actually extended CODs contract by 4 years! 

 

Not suggesting thousands of scouts, just a pool of 20 or so spread around the Country under a network of 2-3 professional scouts. 

This concept of ‘closed professional shops’ is largely a load of tosh. Many professions - bar the most technical -  that are closed by virtue of examination or ‘who you know’ can be tackled to a reasonable level of competence by a man off the street. Struth, I spent 4 years and another 2 qualifying for membership of a professional institute. The Government then 20 years later actively encouraged Joe Public to take on our work with the minimum of training…and there are a lot of examples where they’ve done pretty well

Ollie Watkins ability was also well known but he didn’t sign for City … perhaps some pretty forceful scouting reports may have convinced the powers that be at The Gate to have made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. 
 

 

[maxjak]

59 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not really very comfortable of people’s names put on a faceless forum by a faceless poster. 
 

Whatever your rationale for doing so, it is completely unnecessary. 

       

Edited October 25, 2021 by maxjak

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, maxjak said:

Do  you feel just a little silly? 

Read my response. Clearly you are not keeping up!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I have not read through the whole thread so apologies if already covered but I would ask and especially ask @Harry

Do Brentford rely quite a bit on data etc? I think they do!

Couple of articles in the Times back in August regarding Brentford and their recruitment model. I never got round to posting them but maybe now...

 

[TonyTonyTony]

@Harry I know Sean personally well. He admits he is snowed under and the infrastructure around him his not right. However your OP comes off as very critical of him. He is a local lad- went to school in Posset and is a true red. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

In general terms, I don't have a great issue with bringing back Baker and Weimann on a free if the right money- the former is effective and has his uses, the latter has been quite good away from home. OTOH if Walsh was a big part of his success at Leicester then we need to find an equivalent for here certainly.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

@Harry I know Sean personally well. He admits he is snowed under and the infrastructure around him his not right. However your OP comes off as very critical of him. He is a local lad- went to school in Posset and is a true red. 

To be fair it’s not relevant if he’s local or a red. What’s relevant is he’s good at his job. Hopefully he is highlighting the need for a structure improvement at every opportunity