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The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…


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6 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Im afraid i see it diffrently mr pop.

You do recall how long it took us to get promoted back in the 00s under steve?

Every season was a dogfight to make the play offs.

Yes the fanbase might have grown the last few seasons.

But if we carry on to struggle, attendences will fall, always has historically.

We are much closer to where he found us then the prem.

Thats a fact.

I mean if we do go down mr pop, you expect 20k to turn up?

Mr kew took us from being bankrupt to being known as the richest club outside the first divsion.

And we were known as that in many circles,

He did that in 5 years mr pop on gates mostly from 6500 to 9000.

 

 

Bit before my time that. I know though that when I started, 1998/99, our attendances at this level ere lower than post the redevelopment at this level.

I also know that attendances fell away in football generally and took some time to recover, expand for a variety of reasons.

Ah when you say Steve, I was thinking of manager. SL of course, I remember Pulis through to GJ, 8 long seasons. 2 playoffs under Wilson, backwards to go forwards. Under Cotts we surged back within 18 months of his arrival, but maybe just his impact.

Would be interesting to know if the core fanbase has grown, surely now bigger than 6.5-9k. Wouldn't like to find out as it would be proof of the drop!

The only thing I do know for sure though. When did SL take over? Summer 2000?

1st 11 seasons of his tenure

2nd tier- 4 seasons

3rd tier-7 seasons

Up to the present,  the 2nd 11 seasons

2nd tier- 9 seasons

3rd tier- 2 seasons

The prior 20 years would be interesting but don't have time to look it up right now.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I so agree.

There are very few of the 60+ LJ/MA signings that I thought were bad players on paper (of the ones I knew anything about), but several where I might’ve questioned a) how they’d fit in to the current or future planned playing system, or b) where they’d get minutes with 2/3 players in front of them.

I don't think the way we often set up at times under him in his latter stages helped either, decent of them got crocked for medium to long term periods. Largely agree with you and Nick though.

If only eh. We'd come across a formula of sorts that in theory could only improve.

         Bentley 

     Moore Kalas Baker

Hunt Nagy Brownhill DaSilva

             Palmer

      Weimann Afobe

Reserves...O'Leary, Maenpaa, Pereira, Williams, Rowe, Massengo, Diedhiou

Smith to come back from injury. Looks good eh!

When 4 of them get injured within the first 6-7 weeks of the season though, that's awful, awful luck!! Take one or two component parts out and the whole dynamic Jun  collapse. Rowe though full respect was less of an outlet than DaSilva, age of Williams makes him less suited to a high line than Kalas and we all know the difference between Afobe and Diedhiou. Nagy really good the 1st game and a half.

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4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Well, if that's the case then it's almost an impressive level of ignorance. Almost 40,000 posts yet doesn't recognise a very well known poster.

Harry is not a username I recognised - could be down to the quality of his posts. Who knows?  :dunno:

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53 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Fair enough maybe Lansbury not the right example. Just that I read some very positive things about him, and that performance against us, which probably gave me a false impression as it is only a good game against us!

My general point is a good signing for one club would not necessarily be for us as we don't seem to get the best out of players with how we play. Direct from the back to Martin, generally when we get the ball in okay positions we cross from deep. And defensively becoming more and more all over the place.

LJ had us consistently top half. So I don't think the players were as bad as people seem to suggest. Or LJ had poor players fairly consistently doing better than they were.

Last season hard to really assess due to half our squad missing for months injured.

Every club is a bit of a mess when sacking a manager as they are most often playing poorly losing most games.

Pearson didnt have to make an instant impact like some other managers do, and I wouldn't have expected him to with the injuries. But he has had the advantage of managing us at the end of last season to assess the squad, keep players or let go of so many whose contracts were coming to an end.

It could have been a lot more tricky if many of those dozen or so we let go were still under contract. It was a perfect opportunity for him to change things.

With a transfer window where he said himself he could have looked to bring in loans late, which he doesn't seem keen on. And he only seemed to want a striker in after the signings he had made, but saying it would cost millions means he must rate the strikers he has available to him.

It is early but not been impressed so far. I would be saying the same whoever we brought in as manager.

We don't pass the ball and we look more and more unorganised defensively.

All those different managers we could have gone for would all do things very differently to Pearson and each other. They'd all have their own approach in who they would have offered new deals to, who we sign in the transfer market and most importantly in how they set up the team to play.

But of course stick with Pearson and lets see what he can do. We have to improve very quickly. Looking for a performance against a Barnsley team that are doing terribly.

If we lose against them and deserve to lose then that will be seriously worrying. If we manage an awful undeserved win against them then I'll be delighted to win the game, but still very concerned if see the same as we have recently in and out of possession.

I don't mind 2 up top if done well, I don't really have a preference of any system. Problem we have is we don't really have a pair that has worked so far imo.

Yeah not more attacking going 2 up top. Could be, but depends on how the team plays. 442 can often be a very defensive formation.

Jon. Very fair assessment.

Think we are suffering from chopping and changing. We played more “football” in the opening 6-7 games than we have in the last 4-5.

We were generally solid too. Until Luton we’d not conceded more than 11 shots in a game.

We looked like a team, a bit dour but a team.

We now look like individuals.

Start by going back to a back 4…and everything then stems from that. I don’t think Atkinson suits being “spare” in a three. Baker doesn’t suit being the outside CB either. 

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3 hours ago, Harry said:

You misunderstand Robbo. 
I’m suggesting that there are some fans out there who do take an interest in such things and regularly attend other games and they should be utilised. I’m not talking about an average Joe rocking up to any random game, having a few beers with their mates and then saying “yeah, I watched x and they were good”. But more nuanced than that, but I’m sure you knew that already. 

You may not know very much about football yourself but there are plenty of City fans who do grasp the intricacies of the game. 
 

I’m happy to acknowledge that my knowledge of the intricacies of the beautiful game are not as developed as some other posters and I one for one would not not feel comfortable if I were asked to scout a particular player - I don’t have the required skills.

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9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Harry is not a username I recognised - could be down to the quality of his posts. Who knows?  :dunno:

Then why did you ask him where he'd been a few pages ago :facepalm:

 

On 25/10/2021 at 08:33, Robbored said:

Where have you been Harry?     :dunno:

 

Edited by IAmNick
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33 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Mr pop cards on the table.

How many years have you enjoyed out the last 20.

3? 4?

Bottom 6 is beckoning at xmas at this rate.

 

Many expected us to be bottom 6 at the start of the season.  Could do with keeping the gap as large as possible to 22nd though!

I still say middle eight.

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Many expected us to be bottom 6 at the start of the season.  Could do with keeping the gap as large as possible to 22nd though!

I still say middle eight.

I went a little lower and said 17th with 53 points in @Nogbad the Bad's pre-season predictions game, and I stand by that (nothing to do with us currently being 17th and on a ppg that puts us on for 52.6 points though). I fully expect a flirtation with the relegation places though, possibly even a dip down to 21st or so if we play on a Monday or end up with a few games in hand due to a cup run or something like that.

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5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I so agree.

There are very few of the 60+ LJ/MA signings that I thought were bad players on paper (of the ones I knew anything about), but several where I might’ve questioned a) how they’d fit in to the current or future planned playing system, or b) where they’d get minutes with 2/3 players in front of them.

Exactly this.

Even with the squad now, I’d argue it is less that the players we have are “bad” so much as the squad lacks balance with players who don’t complement each other and a real absence of certain key attributes.

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36 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I went a little lower and said 17th with 53 points in @Nogbad the Bad's pre-season predictions game, and I stand by that (nothing to do with us currently being 17th and on a ppg that puts us on for 52.6 points though). I fully expect a flirtation with the relegation places though, possibly even a dip down to 21st or so if we play on a Monday or end up with a few games in hand due to a cup run or something like that.

Probably won't have to worry about a cup run 😉

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1 hour ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Mr pop cards on the table.

How many years have you enjoyed out the last 20.

3? 4?

Bottom 6 is beckoning at xmas at this rate.

 

That's a different argument isn't it Louie?

The last 20...there were positives and negatives in most of them. There were also scenarios where 1st half of a season was significantly better than the 2nd half and vice versa. I've not really enjoyed the prior 2 full ones, was quite liking the improved fight, endeavour etc up until the last 3 games this time around.

It's a good question that but 2006/07 and 2007/08 were good. We had a good playoff tilt in 2008/09 but fell away towards the end- far too many late goals conceded and this was a theme that continued into 2009/10.

The Cotts double season had to be good, so too did the Cup run season, 2018/19 had good and bad points- but enjoyed or considered reasonable or okay, I'm leaning more towards the considered reasonable bit with a fair few. 

Ended badly for Cotts, shame how it ended but the final few months offered some fresh hope- with some genuinely good displays and fluid football, high scoring wins- there is an example of one that is neither good or bad. Going into August 2016, the idea of an (in-form) Tomlin, Tammy and Kodjia as a fluid front 3 looked really exciting for example. Of course Kodjia was bid for and we got a good price...bye bye excellent front 3. Odemwingie as well shone on loan in 2015/16.

IIRC 2015/16, we ended it quite nicely- the turnaround wins vs Notingham Forest and Fulham away, the thrashings of Bolton, Huddersfield and Sheffield Wednesday at AG in the Spring. Charlton away in Feb 2016 felt like a possible progression, new era.

Think there is a reasonable argument to suggest that the core fanbase has grown but time will tell, and we definitely have a lot more off the pitch revenue than we did 10 years ago. OTOH, the old Ashton Gate could be a bit of a fortress- the East End, the pre redeveloped Dolman, the bit of the Williams that faced the away end- all of them had something even if it's intangible- the redeveloped Ashton Gate can lack this. Home fans behind each goal helped as well.

Put in good and bad though, it's a bit binary...the first 4-5 months of GJ's first season and indeed Cotts' first half season contained a lot of tough times but there was a certain happiness to be taken in the revival from say February onwards in each season, hope for the future too etc.

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The issue I have with this thread is a staff member of the club has been called out individually for doing a bad job in one posters opinion. He has even been named. That’s not cool IMHO.

Far better to criticise the role / job title than the actual name of the person. These are real people who read stuff and it effects them. All for a few internet points - utterly pathetic tbh

The organisational structure  of the club is under review and change, and yes it needs too - but don’t have a pop at individuals “stuck” in roles they didn’t sign up to. 

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On 25/10/2021 at 09:13, tin said:

Major, we’re paying Simpson and Downing six-figure annual salaries. Freeing up one of those roles much earlier in order to pay a HoR would’ve been a far wiser strategy IMO.

Welcome back, @Harry

Surely if you sack one or both of those individuals you have to pay them off? 

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3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

The issue I have with this thread is a staff member of the club has been called out individually for doing a bad job in one posters opinion. He has even been named. That’s not cool IMHO.

Far better to criticise the role / job title than the actual name of the person. These are real people who read stuff and it effects them. All for a few internet points - utterly pathetic tbh

The organisational structure  of the club is under review and change, and yes it needs too - but don’t have a pop at individuals “stuck” in roles they didn’t sign up to. 

Not trying to score internet points Triple T. I’m simply very concerned at the way the summer recruitment was handled and it needs to change asap. I’m allowed to be concerned for the state of my football club, am I not? 
You’ve clearly spoken to Sean, who has clearly acknowledged to you that things haven’t been working fantastically. So I am right to be concerned then, yes? 
As for the naming of the individual - he works at a professional football club with Premier League ambition, in a major role within that organisation and has conducted public interviews with the press - are you suggesting that because he’s your mate he should be exempt from public scrutiny - the scrutiny of paying supporters of 40 years. Is it any different to calling out a manager, coach, player, owner, etc? 
Sounds very much like he doesn’t want the role he’s been ‘stuck’ in, as you say. 
Even more reason why my post carries more relevance. It’s clearly an issue. 
As I said in the opening post - I have no personal issue with Sean, and I’m sure he’s a nice guy and is a good data analyst. I hope he returns to the role he enjoys and has the skill set for as soon as possible. He obviously doesn’t want to be in the role he’s had to fulfil, which 100% backs up the main point of this thread - we need an experienced head of recruitment asap so that Sean can go back to what he’s comfortable doing. 
Your replies on this clearly suggest that both you, and Sean himself, know this to be true and I wish him all the best back in the role he is good at. 

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54 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not trying to score internet points Triple T. I’m simply very concerned at the way the summer recruitment was handled and it needs to change asap. I’m allowed to be concerned for the state of my football club, am I not? 
You’ve clearly spoken to Sean, who has clearly acknowledged to you that things haven’t been working fantastically. So I am right to be concerned then, yes? 
As for the naming of the individual - he works at a professional football club with Premier League ambition, in a major role within that organisation and has conducted public interviews with the press - are you suggesting that because he’s your mate he should be exempt from public scrutiny - the scrutiny of paying supporters of 40 years. Is it any different to calling out a manager, coach, player, owner, etc? 
Sounds very much like he doesn’t want the role he’s been ‘stuck’ in, as you say. 
Even more reason why my post carries more relevance. It’s clearly an issue. 
As I said in the opening post - I have no personal issue with Sean, and I’m sure he’s a nice guy and is a good data analyst. I hope he returns to the role he enjoys and has the skill set for as soon as possible. He obviously doesn’t want to be in the role he’s had to fulfil, which 100% backs up the main point of this thread - we need an experienced head of recruitment asap so that Sean can go back to what he’s comfortable doing. 
Your replies on this clearly suggest that both you, and Sean himself, know this to be true and I wish him all the best back in the role he is good at. 

I’d politely suggest you stop getting personal. The back office team in the club really don’t deserve to be dragged through the dirt because of your angry wankfest. Yes there are issues and we all acknowledge that. Also sure the club do, but calling out individuals by name is not appropriate and you should rewind a bit tbh. At the end of the day it’s a bloke doing his best and you are calling him useless in the most public way. Not fair at all

We all know that recently @TomF and the forum went through pain dealing with Mashton going to Ipswich posts, and threads were deleted. Don’t assume this won’t end the same way as you can’t just make up theories about individuals to suit some theory you may have. 

 

Edited by TonyTonyTony
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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Not trying to score internet points Triple T. I’m simply very concerned at the way the summer recruitment was handled and it needs to change asap. I’m allowed to be concerned for the state of my football club, am I not? 
You’ve clearly spoken to Sean, who has clearly acknowledged to you that things haven’t been working fantastically. So I am right to be concerned then, yes? 
As for the naming of the individual - he works at a professional football club with Premier League ambition, in a major role within that organisation and has conducted public interviews with the press - are you suggesting that because he’s your mate he should be exempt from public scrutiny - the scrutiny of paying supporters of 40 years. Is it any different to calling out a manager, coach, player, owner, etc? 
Sounds very much like he doesn’t want the role he’s been ‘stuck’ in, as you say. 
Even more reason why my post carries more relevance. It’s clearly an issue. 
As I said in the opening post - I have no personal issue with Sean, and I’m sure he’s a nice guy and is a good data analyst. I hope he returns to the role he enjoys and has the skill set for as soon as possible. He obviously doesn’t want to be in the role he’s had to fulfil, which 100% backs up the main point of this thread - we need an experienced head of recruitment asap so that Sean can go back to what he’s comfortable doing. 
Your replies on this clearly suggest that both you, and Sean himself, know this to be true and I wish him all the best back in the role he is good at. 

250+ posts spread over eight pages in two days  suggest this is a matter of genuine concern and widespread interest.

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Very interesting topic.

For too long we were signing players without a clear idea of playing identity (yuk sorry) but it was true. So we have a random group of players, who on their own , in the right team, could possibly be ok. So without a clear direction, we had, or have this unbalanced group. We now how some input from Pearson, and the one clear requirement is that we need to have much faster and stronger players. WBA and Bournemouth made us look like an under 18's team. We were miles off physically. That is also a reflection of how the Prem has moved on . 

I am still unsure how Pearson would ideally set up the side. He has mentioned 4-3-3 and a permutation of that. But I cannot see us going far as just a counter attacking side. we look not only weak but technically limited, so we now start looking at players with all of those attributes and you really are getting into expensive territory. In any case, we have to assume he has given his input and guidelines , even if on the pitch I think we are all a bit confused right now. 

As for the next stage, the process of recruitment , Pearson operated with two hugely talented people in the past, Walsh and Mackenzie . It does not seem likely Mackenzie would leave Villa, but Walsh is a consultant in the USA. If not either of them, then someone else of similar stature and experience would seem essential.

I cannot comment on the analysts at the club, they all (clubs) use the same data pool it seems and it is how you extract it. Nige did say the technical recruitment was not bad, I assume he is meaning the analytics. From the Ep article it states we have 3 scouts , and I wonder what we are doing in the European leagues to try and find the next Mahrez. Also seems not very many people for such a key activity. 

With funds limited and many clubs having access to the same data it is very clear recruitment takes on an even bigger importance.A  head of recruitment with the correct profile and contacts would seen most urgent role we need to fill. But who recruits the head of recruitment....

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8 hours ago, billywedlock said:

So we have a random group of players, who on their own , in the right team, could possibly be ok. So without a clear direction, we had, or have this unbalanced group. We now how some input from Pearson

The first bit is something I mentioned in an earlier post, i.e. there are very few of the 60+ players signed I thought were bad players, but some I questioned how they’d fit in, and some I questioned how much game time they’d get with a plethora of players in their position already (clubs in the bag).  A few I worried they’d block pathway.

The second bit, I take comfort from this bit of the Gregor interview:

Recruitment meetings and what Nige wants

"It starts with Nige," says Gilhespy. The recruitment team works to find players that Nigel Pearson wants, focusing on what a player can bring to the team rather than what they can't do..

"He sets the criteria for what he wants: positionally, at what point he wants certain players. He's really well planned in what he wants to do, and it's so underrated the clarity of the message that comes into us, it's important, because if it's not quite right or it waivers then you get further away from what's needed as the filtering develops.

"It's all part of a plan over a few windows where we can get to a place where he's got what he wants.”

As a business analyst, if the person who wants something can’t articulate the need / requirement properly, or I can’t understand / interpret it correctly, then we build the wrong thing.  Almost everywhere I’ve seen something written about Nige, the word clarity is used.  It’s so important.

I can’t comment on the agent stuff, but whatever we think about going back to Leicester for players, Tanner and Atkinson have come in and got up to speed very quickly.  None of this “it’s takes 6 months to learn the system” rubbish.  That suggests the system is too complex….and then it changed every week!

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9 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I’d politely suggest you stop getting personal. The back office team in the club really don’t deserve to be dragged through the dirt because of your angry wankfest. Yes there are issues and we all acknowledge that. Also sure the club do, but calling out individuals by name is not appropriate and you should rewind a bit tbh. At the end of the day it’s a bloke doing his best and you are calling him useless in the most public way. Not fair at all

We all know that recently @TomF and the forum went through pain dealing with Mashton going to Ipswich posts, and threads were deleted. Don’t assume this won’t end the same way as you can’t just make up theories about individuals to suit some theory you may have. 

You must have been pissed when you wrote this, Tone. There is nothing in Harry's post which is "personal". On the contrary he wishes Sean all the best. 

As for naming Sean, specifically. The guy has just done a back page article with The Post!! He allowed the local press to come into his office, take photographs of him and his team and do a comprehensive interview with him. 

If he wanted the team to be "back office" then maybe don't agree to do the interview. 

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