The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[tin]

6 hours ago, billywedlock said:

This topic remains for me the single biggest issue. Recruitment. We still have no head of recruitment (what happened to the ex WBA rumour) and yet we are entering another summer of huge complexity. We have no funds unless we sell or have resale add ons. Have clear gaps to fill in defence and midfield. A few over paid players that we want to move on . A few players we would hate to lose. So a complex situation . Will the recruitment team be up to the task ? Maybe Klosse, Atkinson and Tanner suggest yes . Nige will not be signing his ex Leicester players this summer, so maybe we are in the right direction. But without a stated specialist in the role , it personally concerns me as the turnover needed is vast, the real world flexibility (players under contract/no money/few OOC) is limited. I had rather hoped by now, we would a lot clearer in this area. Or do the club, as suggested, not feel the need. 

Good post. This is also the elephant in the room for me, too. It’s not like a transfer window is stopping SL from hiring a sporting director, head of recruitment etc. That appointment could’ve been made at any time and should’ve been done last summer, but still nothing.

A reoccurring theme with SL, which is also a major blind spot, is that he tends to put all his eggs in one basket as he did it with Ashton. I struggle to recall a manager having to carry the weight Pearson has on his shoulders. We have no structure off the pitch and with finances as tight as they are, we need to get every signing right this summer and ideally in as early as possible. 

[CliftonCliff]

7 minutes ago, tin said:

Good post. This is also the elephant in the room for me, too. It’s not like a transfer window is stopping SL from hiring a sporting director, head of recruitment etc. That appointment could’ve been made at any time and should’ve been done last summer, but still nothing.

A reoccurring theme with SL, which is also a major blind spot, is that he tends to put all his eggs in one basket as he did it with Ashton. I struggle to recall a manager having to carry the weight Pearson has on his shoulders. We have no structure off the pitch and with finances as tight as they are, we need to get every signing right this summer and ideally in as early as possible. 

Absolutely. Despite our obvious deficiencies on the pitch, I am, and have been for as long as I can remember, less concerned about the occupants of the dressing room or the manager’s office than I am about the boardroom. We simply don’t have the right balance of senior executives, with appropriate knowledge and expertise in the football industry, to steer us consistently in the right direction. There is a massive leadership vacuum, which makes the club appear directionless and rudderless, and it’s dangerous.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

18 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Absolutely. Despite our obvious deficiencies on the pitch, I am, and have been for as long as I can remember, less concerned about the occupants of the dressing room or the manager’s office than I am about the boardroom. We simply don’t have the right balance of senior executives, with appropriate knowledge and expertise in the football industry, to steer us consistently in the right direction. There is a massive leadership vacuum, which makes the club appear directionless and rudderless, and it’s dangerous.

Broadly agree with the last few posts in this thread. Think there’s an argument that SL can learn lessons, but learns them incredibly slowly. Eg he’s now got more experienced folk running both the football and rugby (CEO roles and team/coaching), but hasn’t inserted the DoF role we need to ensure the football side has the right support/challenge. Men’s football is the most difficult and most important for supporters of the 5 Bristol Sport teams (given costs/competitiveness and number of supporters), so therefore getting the right leadership critical and does throw into question SL’s, at least unconscious, motives, given JL has role without appropriate experience. Rather than fantasise about Steve Cooper et al, we appear to have a manager with decent experience, prepared to work under difficult conditions, therefore having someone to take some of the burden of of the footballing side (transfers, contracts etc) away seems like a relatively cost effective (/obvious) approach. That would also be the right role to decide when/if the manager needs changing, as better able to assess underlying progress or lack of and whether the current incumbent is right for the next phase etc, than non-footballing folk. 

[RedRock]

How many of us were banging on about a Director of Football under the MA/LJ/DH era? How many saying we needed a decent scouting network under an experienced, qualified Head Scout.

Would love to say it’s just a case of ‘false economy’ but it seems to run far deeper than that. 
 

What I don’t get is one year on into NP’s reign we are still hopelessly weak in this area. I fully get that purse strings have been tightened, but the cost of say Simpson, spent on a decent scout who can have at least started to build the foundations of professional scouting system would have been money far, far better spent. 

Beyond bizarre. 

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

It also risks being a very fluid summer, with external factors changing our plans (interest in a player, a sell on of Webster/Brownhill/Kelly) , factors not in our control. I expect a couple of senior players on free transfers (OOC) similar to Klosse, but others ? It is going to take something inspired if we want more consistent Championship players. But when you go that route, you  realistically are taking on players who have little upward career movement left. I guess it needs to be a balance. With Baker maybe retiring (Klosse to replace ?) you still have King/Simpson/COD as senior players you potentially replace, with Palmer/Wells related to the ability to move them on with their wages so high. Wells certainly easier . Our defence maybe needs a bigger makeover than we think, certainly this year it has been all over the place, and full backs/wing backs are a prized commodity these days. So the complexity and the permutations are vast. To manage that it needs a strong recruitment team and a clear vision . 

“Very fluid” might also equal “very reactive”.  I don’t think we can do much proactive stuff until we know the fate of several players.

Centre Back is still the big one to resolve, and especially the desire to go to a back 4.  Atkinson proved himself capable of playing in a four early season imho.  We know Kalas can, but will he still be here?  Klose has played most of his football career in a back 4.  Ideally I’d like to see us move to that now for the rest of the season, but I don’t think it will happen.

[Jerseybean]

Thank you Harry for starting this back in October and billywedlock for revitalizing the discussion. Finding this thread both informative and disturbing. With no inside knowledge I can only reflect on the points raised.

What occurs to me:

1) NP has spoken about the need for cultural change, in any organisation the culture (the way things are around here) is determined by the people and typically (although not always) by those with most power/influence. Recruitment is therefore a key lever for achieving cultural change.

2) NP was bold enough to dispense with lots of players last closed-season and manage a much smaller squad. We all recognise our financial constraints when it comes to new signings but equally we all recognise the need to strengthen the squad this summer and if possible off-load more players who aren’t part of the future. 

3) Alex Scott is one of or arguably our biggest gems. How did we come by him (a genuine question) was it purely by chance given SLs Guernsey connections?

4) Recruitment in any set up is fundamentally important, as much as football agents and their fees / tactics maybe disliked they are interwoven into the fabric of the recruitment process and to ignore them seems insane.

5) The fan-based scouting network, which has recently been instigated, excites me and although it has great potential should be an adjunct to a professional recruitment team rather than a substitute for such a team.

Lets hope (forever an optimist) that the Club are actively addressing the matter. 

 

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

Absolutely. Despite our obvious deficiencies on the pitch, I am, and have been for as long as I can remember, less concerned about the occupants of the dressing room or the manager’s office than I am about the boardroom. We simply don’t have the right balance of senior executives, with appropriate knowledge and expertise in the football industry, to steer us consistently in the right direction. There is a massive leadership vacuum, which makes the club appear directionless and rudderless, and it’s dangerous.

This is why I don’t want Pearson sacked while we’re safe from relegation regardless of how we’re performing.

The club structure has been and is in such a mess that we really do need a manager, at this point, with both the experience and confidence to challenge the owner/board to make the necessary behind-the-scenes changes to ensure sustainable long-term success. Pearson WILL do this, even if there’s a better coach out there to get a bit more out of the players. 

Pearson’s job spans far beyond what happens on the pitch and is why - and I know @Davefevs shares this view - even though I don’t necessarily think he’s the manager to move us towards the Premier League I believe he’s the the right man to set us on the right course.

[Sheltons Army]

25 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

This is why I don’t want Pearson sacked while we’re safe from relegation regardless of how we’re performing.

The club structure has been and is in such a mess that we really do need a manager, at this point, with both the experience and confidence to challenge the owner/board to make the necessary behind-the-scenes changes to ensure sustainable long-term success. Pearson WILL do this, even if there’s a better coach out there to get a bit more out of the players. 

Pearson’s job spans far beyond what happens on the pitch and is why - and I know @Davefevs shares this view - even though I don’t necessarily think he’s the manager to move us towards the Premier League I believe he’s the the right man to set us on the right course.

Excellent post , with very good reasoning 

I’m with you

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Pearson’s job spans far beyond what happens on the pitch and is why - and I know @Davefevs shares this view - even though I don’t necessarily think he’s the manager to move us towards the Premier League I believe he’s the the right man to set us on the right course.

In many respects we should be grooming Pearson’s replacement.  Maybe we are.  Maybe we evolve from Manager (Pearson) today to “General Manager” Pearson (a role upstairs) and Head-Coach tomorrow.  I posted ages ago that wouldn’t it be great if Alex Ball was being groomed for that.  Not sure he is, but just a thought.

I see Pearson in the Sir John Harvey-Jones “Troubleshooter” role, albeit he gets to pick the team too.  For me it’s about stabilising us, building the foundations.

He has become unpopular amongst the fan base.  How wide that lack of popularity is can’t be gauged by OTIB or BBCRB, but it is individual prerogative.  Who was the last manager that wasn’t?  Cooper, Jordan?  Kinda goes with the territory of Bristol City doesn’t it?

If Pearson decided to go at the end of the season (or it was decided for him) for me you’d still need someone new to continue to build the foundations…they aren’t built yet.  It’s such an important summer, it would likely change recruitment plans, turn them on their head.  You’d like to think we are already sounding out agents about their players.  Does that process re-start.  We moaned last summer that Pearson wasn’t appointed permanently early enough.  We’d be repeating that this summer, but later.  That’s not to say we shouldn’t not do it if it’s the right thing to do, but board and fans would need to fully understand the risks of doing so.

Going to be an interesting couple of / few months as player decisions are made.  Perhaps bringing in a coach to succeed Pearson might be the more important decision?

[Jerseybean]

27 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

This is why I don’t want Pearson sacked while we’re safe from relegation regardless of how we’re performing.

The club structure has been and is in such a mess that we really do need a manager, at this point, with both the experience and confidence to challenge the owner/board to make the necessary behind-the-scenes changes to ensure sustainable long-term success. Pearson WILL do this, even if there’s a better coach out there to get a bit more out of the players. 

Pearson’s job spans far beyond what happens on the pitch and is why - and I know @Davefevs shares this view - even though I don’t necessarily think he’s the manager to move us towards the Premier League I believe he’s the the right man to set us on the right course.

Thank you TJ, my sentiments exactly. Both for those representing us on and off the pitch NP’s football experience is IMO exactly what we need at this time. I hope (and actually believe) he will be given the time to turn things around. 

[Henry]

I wonder what @Harry’s views are now with having a link to the club.

Do you feel anything has changed? Are we better set up for this next window?

[Sheltons Army]

For me , the choice of Chief Scout as was , now a ‘head of recruitment’ and the team , he assembles (I personally feel the analytics side has too much weight these days compared to eyes on)

is virtually , if not as important , as the choice of head coach / manager IMHO

Other than Keith Burt ,in my lifetime , certainly post Dicks,  I can’t think of a time when we’ve had the recruitment ‘department’ in good hands 

TC , Joe Jordan , Gary Johnson did ok on recruitment 

Certainly TC and JJ watched a hell of a lot of games themselves racking up thousands of miles , and also using their friends and contacts in the game for recommendations.

Nail the recruitment employees and the Head Coach / Manager has More than a racing start.

IMHO we’ve never recognised the importance of this and never prioritised it sufficiently, if at all 

Lays at the core of our struggles to really progress for decades 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[Richard Head]

I think the difference in the club that hasn’t been mentioned in the recent posts is the role of the CEO. It seems to me that we now have a grown up in the role who doesn’t have Mark Trashton’s hugely inflated ego, is more able to work constructively with the manager and happy to operate behind the scenes. Richard Gould has been in post less than a year and  I wouldn’t be surprised if he is in discussions about some of the issues mentioned above in readiness for the close  season.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Richard Head

[ray savino]

2 hours ago, CliftonCliff said:

We simply don’t have the right balance of senior executives, with appropriate knowledge and expertise in the football industry, to steer us consistently in the right direction.

This is absolutely bang on! In fairness to SL, he thought he probably had that with Mark Ashton, but put his whole trust in what appears to have turned out to be a wrong’un! I hope this hasn’t put SL off from the logical need for board representation with specialist experience and knowledge of the football world. He has sometimes appeared to show (and probably understandanbly) a reticence to employ a certain type of role or manager profile when his fingers have been somewhat burnt. (Think reticence and change from experienced to inexperienced coach/manager then back again. The difference this time compared to Ashton’s time and role, is that you have a CEO in Richard Gould who would hopefully provide a rational head between the owners and a football/recruitment director type of role. Ashton appeared to dictate the football narrative to SL, far more than he should have it would seem. It would be interesting to know the true feelings of LJ, DH, etc. They were party to big mistakes no doubt, but ultimate blame has to go to their management, i.e. Ashton.

I have always believed we need a representative at director level on the board with a street-wise, progressive, business-like knowledge of the football world to input, advise direction in the structure of the football club with a long term strategy that the club has the confidence and courage to stick to. All other recruitment from Head coach/Manager to players, medical, fitness, etc. would follow the criteria for the football strategy. We have seemed to change far too much over the years, particularly since the last real (noticeable on-field) plan which was pre-season to the end of season 2014 -2015. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

But ideas of bringing in a coach as his replacement to work under him, sorry that is never going to happen, Pearson works with players, is creating a different mind set and mentality. You do not do that from distance. He may want to change the coaching set up, well that s a different matter.

Yeah, wasn’t thinking of distancing Pearson.

[Red Skin]

When Richard Gould was appointed CEO it was clear he would not be involved in player recruitment so my hope was that we would appoint someone competent pronto.   The fact that we have not is extremely concerning especially if we can believe what these agents are telling you.  For such a successful businessman it's astonishing that SL has not addressed this issue.   

Edited March 21, 2022 by Red Skin

[Red Skin]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

I think based on what he has said,  RG does get involved in the financial and contractual aspect of recruitment, but not player identification. As it stands it looks like it is Sean Gillespy (head of technical recruitment) with Pearson with no head of recruitment in the sense discussed. 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unseen-figure-heart-bristol-citys-5409108

Yes, I wasn't clear.  I would expect this to be part of his remit but not player identification or decisions on what players to sell and when.  

Still feel DoF needs to own the vision of what vision we have for the club and the footballing philosophy we recruit to.   Head of Recruitment - should be ever get one - will need this strategic view to follow.  

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

I am not sure I feel anything unpopular with Pearson outside of the forum. I have seen some of the most entertaining football since our cup run a few years ago. I can see where we could be without so many self inflicted errors. It is not like the drudge of the LJ last 2 seasons, there are some genuine hot spots. So going from this seasons struggles to a top 10 side , in theory could be rapid. But, the issue is recruitment, and that is going to be the same for any manager. There are few in the game that will be jumping through hoops to take on our mess right now, certainly not the type of names that get fans excited. When Holden was decided upon, it was not as if we had a list of world class managers chomping at the bit. It was Cook or Houghton if I recall. Fans have a weird sense of perspective sometimes. I would give Pearson 3 seasons, he is step one in , 2 years to go. he has created a get out for the club for FFP by developing a group of young players with value. He needs proper backing and patience. When City are playing well this season , we play really well. So it is back to recruitment, the last thing we need right now is a change of manager , it is fantasy to think there is a golden god waiting in the wings to scoop us up. It is classic football fan fantasy . We are a club in a total mess and transition, we will avoid relegation, we have some amazing young talent and are in many games entertaining (bit frustrating with errors) to watch. We are very close to a top 10 side with a few select and well guided adjustments. Getting to the Prem is another step .  But ideas of bringing in a coach as his replacement to work under him, sorry that is never going to happen, Pearson works with players, is creating a different mind set and mentality. You do not do that from distance. He may want to change the coaching set up, well that s a different matter. Blackburn, QPR, Luton, Coventry have stuck with their managers and have made progress. If we were playing LJ dross football (final 2 seasons), then it might be a different perspective , but we have played some wonderful stuff. Saturday saw 2 great goals.We cannot keep throwing the balls in the air every time there is a blip, more so when we are following a new plan, otherwise we do risk total chaos. If we finish 1 place outside of the relegation places or one outside the playoffs, in terms of absolute result it matters not one bit . What matters is, are we working to a plan, and dealing with the issues. It seems we are . So....

IMHO we need a balanced, capable and hungry squad not a new manager. So back to recruitment. 

 

Still think it a 5 season job 

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Yes, I wasn't clear.  I would expect this to be part of his remit but not player identification or decisions on what players to sell and when.  

Still feel DoF needs to own the vision of what vision we have for the club and the footballing philosophy we recruit to.   Head of Recruitment - should be ever get one - will need this strategic view to follow.  

Think Pearson is setting that part.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

I remember what some Leicester fans said when NP first came. Stick by him . The firm and style if play Will seem odd at times and he will take a while to make any sense on the field . But stick with him give him players he needs and it will work .

My worry is our financial problem with players

[redsquirrel]

im sticking by him  for his contract time and maybe a new one too. im still excited about what might lie ahead once ashtons mess is cleared and finances get back to normal but that is going to take a long time. mid lower championship for another few years wont hurt us, already above where we have been since day one on average

[The Bard]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think Pearson is setting that part.

Exactly. His role is very similar to Pat Lam's at Bristol. In charge of the whole thing.  Not just the team.

Fact Lam is called a Director of Rugby and Pearson Manager is a reflection of the different cultures of the sports. Manager in rugby literally makes sure the coach and hotel is booked for away games. Director in football is an indication you're not a football man.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

Still feel DoF needs to own the vision of what vision we have for the club and the footballing philosophy we recruit to.   Head of Recruitment - should be ever get one - will need this strategic view to follow.  

Nigel Pearson previews Bristol City vs Birmingham City | Press Conference - YouTube

See at 36:15:

Q: "A Head of Recruitment... is that something you're looking to fill this summer?"

Pearson: "No. We're looking to tweak how things work but that's not on the agenda at the moment"

[The Bard]

5 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Nigel Pearson previews Bristol City vs Birmingham City | Press Conference - YouTube

See at 36:15:

Q: "A Head of Recruitment... is that something you're looking to fill this summer?"

Pearson: "No. We're looking to tweak how things work but that's not on the agenda at the moment"

'At the moment' clearly the operative phrase in that answer

[Merrick's Marvels]

30 minutes ago, The Bard said:

'At the moment' clearly the operative phrase in that answer

"Not until our finances allow"?

"Not until I move upstairs and do it myself"?!

"Not until Harry gives up the day job" 

Who knows.

From the way he answered the question, I certainly don't expect us to have a Head of Recruitment any time soon.

[Red-Robbo]

Although I agree with much of the OP, I can't agree that Weimann "should be gone".

Where the f- would our season be without him? Bottom three perhaps. 

Maybe there might be a chance that we could have landed some cheaper lower league forward who might have stepped up a level and scored 18 goals by mid- March,. But that's one hell of a maybe. 

Unfortunately,  you have to pay a premium for goalscorers. They are the most expensive part of a team. 

The list of "handsomely paid" players who shouldn't be here is long, but it doesn't include AW. 

 

 

[Lrrr]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think Pearson is setting that part.

Should he be?

Managers last on average 18 months to 2 years, why do you let someone who may only be there for 2 seasons dictate your club philosophy rather than have one in place and hire your managers accordingly.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Not until Harry gives up the day job

How do you set up crowdfunding.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Should he be?

Managers last on average 18 months to 2 years, why do you let someone who may only be there for 2 seasons dictate your club philosophy rather than have one in place and hire your managers accordingly.

In the normal manager’s remit, probably not.  But if he’s the best person in the football club to do that bit as well, then so be it.  Conflict of interests? Yep.  But better than nobody doing it at all.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

How do you set up crowdfunding.

The day job might pay better!