Smaller squad - Backfiring?

[mozo]

14 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think it appears that in the cases of Palmer & O’Dowda having seen them in action he is attempting to freeze them out & hope they will move on (even on loan) in January.

We will never know if he would have kept Paterson if these 2 were also OoC at the same time but for all the clamour from a few now my recollection is Walsh (who by the way has done absolutely nothing at Swansea so far) was the one that most people wanted to stay, not Paterson.

Don’t get the Vyner business, maybe he wanted to see a bit more from him in training? Possibly last night’s selection  was “needs must”?  
As a versatile, relatively low wage player, he would have always been in my 18.

I wondered at one time if Wells was being frozen out in that same way but he's back in favour now.

Vyner is an odd one. I know he made a few errors last night, but it's hardly surprising seeing as he's been yanked back in from the cold and thrown into the action against a former Premier league striker.

[REDOXO]

13 hours ago, Dynamite Red said:

We are a mess, players like Wells, Palmer, Kalas, DaSilva who are up there as our highest wage earners and not pulling their weight for their wages. Honestly apart from maybe Kalas I would happily see them all go. A waste of money. 

We have players who are clearly past there best, Martin, Simpson and King. 

Supplement them with promising but currently league 1 standard players such as Bakinson, Pring, Semenyo, Scott, Tanner, Atkinson. 

Now add no creativity or dynamic forwards and wingers and you can see we badly need an injection of quality. Can't expect to release a dozen first players in the summer and it have no impact. Utterly wasted our wages on overpaid shite. 

Yes I wrote something similar recently. 
 

@Davefevs you know this stuff who is OOC at the end of the season?
 

Atkinson and Tanner are here for a while as is Weimann and Baker has 18 months. However the wages of those   Mentioned in your post must be massive. Movement is clear and This will be a part of bringing the costs down toward a break even level. 
 

Pearson took on the poison chalice, that has one thing going for it, it’s youth policy. The thought of any midfield with HNM in it when either defending our goal or getting a late one is vital fills me with trepidation, this goes for Bakinson too. Vyner was shown up by just the merest nudge by Deeney yesterday and My mum has more pace than Martin. 
 

Buckle up City fans. We are in trouble all over. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Think it appears that in the cases of Palmer & O’Dowda having seen them in action he is attempting to freeze them out & hope they will move on (even on loan) in January.

We will never know if he would have kept Paterson if these 2 were also OoC at the same time but for all the clamour from a few now my recollection is Walsh (who by the way has done absolutely nothing at Swansea so far) was the one that most people wanted to stay, not Paterson.

Don’t get the Vyner business, maybe he wanted to see a bit more from him in training? Possibly last night’s selection  was “needs must”?  
As a versatile, relatively low wage player, he would have always been in my 18.

Very perceptive post.

@REDOXO

Ignore Benarous….2023 expiry.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Davefevs

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I do, but we can have differing opinions.

What I start to struggle with is players like Palmer and O’Dowda (and Vyner until last night) not featuring.  I’m not saying they should start (easy Tiger!!), but O’Dowda isn’t even getting a look-in off the bench, Palmer not even on the bench.  They were players who would’ve been involved in the discussions about whether we could afford to offer Pato a deal….imho.

But like the Fishing Trip on Gavin & Stacey, what was said in the dressing room after Forest.

That just looks bad.  In an ideal world we’d understand why.

I would love to see a tell all story on the last 5 years at city, but its possibly unlikely!! I dont know the inner workings, but i dont know if cod and palmer who already contracted would have been involved in the decision to extend pato,,, unless it was whether either of them can be moved on. I think they have both demonstrated over the years that aside from 1/2 decent games per season, they really offer very little, and its not a great surprise that both are out of favour!?

[Davefevs]

Simon - that’s the point….I don’t think you could move on Palmer or COD.

[mozo]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Very perceptive post.

@REDOXO

Ignore Benarous….2023 expiry.

Out of those only Cundy has the potential to hang around. So that's another 7 gone with Wells and Palmer finally facing their final 12 months at Ashton Gate.

[Simon bristol]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Simon - that’s the point….I don’t think you could move on Palmer or COD.

agree they arent going anywhere, not sure though that a deal couldnt have been made with pato if he was happy to agree to reduced pay, and if pearson had wanted him,,, but i have my doubts that pato isnt exactly pearsons idea of an attacking midfielder?

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I do, but we can have differing opinions.

What I start to struggle with is players like Palmer and O’Dowda (and Vyner until last night) not featuring.  I’m not saying they should start (easy Tiger!!), but O’Dowda isn’t even getting a look-in off the bench, Palmer not even on the bench.  They were players who would’ve been involved in the discussions about whether we could afford to offer Pato a deal….imho.

But like the Fishing Trip on Gavin & Stacey, what was said in the dressing room after Forest.

That just looks bad.  In an ideal world we’d understand why.

Have I missed a story about something behind said in the dressing room after Forest or have I misheard your post?

Re Palmer and O'Dowda, I assumed the issue was that we couldn't offload those two players so - in terms of trimming squad size and wage bill - Paterson was the one who could be moved on. Ultimately that feels like the problem in a nutshell. The players under contract aren't the players we'd ideally keep.

That comes back to the OP. Yes, there might be advantages to a larger squad but we're surely be spending less wages on lower quality across a greater number of players. I am not sure that would help. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

Have I missed a story about something behind said in the dressing room after Forest or have I misheard your post?

Re Palmer and O'Dowda, I assumed the issue was that we couldn't offload those two players so - in terms of trimming squad size and wage bill - Paterson was the one who could be moved on. Ultimately that feels like the problem in a nutshell. The players under contract aren't the players we'd ideally keep.

That comes back to the OP. Yes, there might be advantages to a larger squad but we're surely be spending less wages on lower quality across a greater number of players. I am not sure that would help. 

No, just that both came on as sub, did eff all, and I can’t imagine the staff were happy about it….and neither has made it onto the pitch since.

[REDOXO]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Simon - that’s the point….I don’t think you could move on Palmer or COD.

What a mess, anyone talking about rebuilds and transfer windows needs to read that spreadsheet. God Pearson has inherited/taken on a problem. The wages being pumped out on that lot must be obscene. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

What a mess, anyone talking about rebuilds and transfer windows needs to read that spreadsheet. God Pearson has inherited/taken on a problem. The wages being pumped out on that lot must be obscene. 

By my calculations he’s cut £10-12m of cost (wages and amortisation) over the summer.  My wage calculations can be cautious, so I will get a better feel when the accounts are out.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Think it appears that in the cases of Palmer & O’Dowda having seen them in action he is attempting to freeze them out & hope they will move on (even on loan) in January.

If that is true, interesting that he is freezing out our two most talented players in Palmer and O’Dowda.  I am absolutely convinced that both would feature in our strongest XI but I suspect we need a manager with more imagination and flexibility than Nigel Pearson to get the best out of them.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

If that is true, interesting that he is freezing out our two most talented players in Palmer and O’Dowda.  I am absolutely convinced that both would feature in our strongest XI but I suspect we need a manager with more imagination and flexibility than Nigel Pearson to get the best out of them.

That’s some claim.  Fair play, all about opinions.

[Waconda]

34 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

agree they arent going anywhere, not sure though that a deal couldnt have been made with pato if he was happy to agree to reduced pay, and if pearson had wanted him,,, but i have my doubts that pato isnt exactly pearsons idea of an attacking midfielder?

Nope, he likes to dribble with the ball = a big no,no.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

If that is true, interesting that he is freezing out our two most talented players in Palmer and O’Dowda.  I am absolutely convinced that both would feature in our strongest XI but I suspect we need a manager with more imagination and flexibility than Nigel Pearson to get the best out of them.

Blimey, as Fevs has said all about opinions but to me they both flatter to deceive, in fact O’Dowda has never nailed down a regular place in 5 years under 3 different managers with us & whilst I do think he could have had more opportunities this season, that is more down to the paucity of options rather than to him.

Palmer is also someone that his last 3 managers at club level have consistently chosen not to pick & who was ditched at international level by Jamaica after 1 game & I think that says it all.

[Bristol Oil Services]

17 hours ago, billywedlock said:

In all of the gloom , the hilarious suggestion Patterson would have saved us . Neatly forgetting how unreliable he was or that LJ sent him on loan . People are scrabbling around in frustration . It’s a time for cool heads and support . We are in a greatly difficult and complex situation . The solution will not be instant. 

No, and the (inevitable) Relegation Will Not Be Televised (beyond brief highlights on Quest), fingers crossed.

[Baldyman]

Totally backfiring so far . I understand not wanting to splash millions on players with our finances under pressure, BUT why oh why did we not get a couple of loanees in from the Prem like just about every other club in the division has ? Still come at a cost but just a fraction of the cost of a permanent signing . Really odd that we haven’t a single loan player to bolster the squad . 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Blimey, as Fevs has said all about opinions but to me they both flatter to deceive, in fact O’Dowda has never nailed down a regular place in 5 years under 3 different managers with us & whilst I do think he could have had more opportunities this season, that is more down to the paucity of options rather than to him.

Palmer is also someone that his last 3 managers at club level have consistently chosen not to pick & who was ditched at international level by Jamaica after 1 game & I think that says it all.

I can understand that opinion, but they need to be used properly for people to see the best in them.  In terms of pure talent, I think both could play in the Premier League, but O’Dowda needs an injury-free run in the side, and Palmer probably needs the whole team built around him.  Would be interesting to see though.

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

Totally backfiring so far . I understand not wanting to splash millions on players with our finances under pressure, BUT why oh why did we not get a couple of loanees in from the Prem like just about every other club in the division has ? Still come at a cost but just a fraction of the cost of a permanent signing . Really odd that we haven’t a single loan player to bolster the squad . 

Not as simple as that.  As you say we’d have some cost (wages), but possibly a loan fee too.

Player A of PL Team B, costs us £10k p.w. and a £500k loan fee.  £1m in total for a season.

You could go and get a £2m permie signing (Player Z) on a 4 year contract at £10k p.w. and it costs you the same £1m p.a, and you have a saleable asset too.

Your obvious retort will be is Player Z better than player A?  Which is the big unknown.  If not, then your loan becomes more attractive.