How big is ‘the project’

[1960maaan]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As is yours.

Agreed with those...we certainly IMO did see them hit the optimum level. Webster was very good?

Agreed with that too- revolving door policy was a big bugbear of mine, it's costly and it destroys the chance to build cohesion. Agree on the poor players, those 3 were some although wasn't Garita a punt ie no great cost or am I thinking of someone else? Yeah that will fall down given the churn.

Agreed. Don't forget too, quite a few had medium term and longer injuries- that's something we did not get right in those days...to name a few off the top of my head.

1. Mawson
2. Sessegnon
3. Hegeler
4. O'Neil
5. Walsh
6. Djuric

I'm sure there were many more by the way. In fact I'm certain there were- can't get the best nor can players in that position show their best. Didn't Watkins have lengthy injuries too not that he was great, Adelakun yes not necessarily up to it but injuries did him or us few favours- terrible bad luck eh all these medium to long term injuries.

The Garita "punt" is a perfect example of how the Club was being run then. Not like we had a small squad, but £50,000 on a player they expected to fail, plus wages, is a ridiculous attitude for a Club that was supposed to be looking for self sustainability. 
The injuries & long absences from the team/squad were not always easy to understand. Johnson had a habit of playing someone only to drop them from the squad for ages, then throw them back in from nowhere. 
Some injuries you could question the medical staff. Djuric I felt sorry for, played with an injury because we were so short up front. Delayed a Hernia operation I seem to remember. Only to be left out when Fam was suspended and we were desperate for strikers. 
Walsh is another one that bugs me. Didn't do much wrong in the games he played for us, but with so many options he ends up on loan. Had a great season at Coventry, only to be injured here along with half the squad.

Not only did Johnsons scatter Gun recruitment prevent players and the team from developing. It also caused us to miss opportunities. Difficult to form and bond a team, get that team ethic if the first team dressing room has a revolving door. That brings us to where we are now, having lost 14 players, some looking very costly. Pearson, although he has been allowed a couple of signings (not counting stop gaps to fill spots temporarily) , but the rebuilding process is going to take longer than it would have normally. COVID has made it more difficult, but 65 signings give or take, for one manager over 3 years is ridiculous . 
It feels like the backroom side is more level headed, a CEO less Ego driven, and possibly the recruitment more selective.  
Annoyingly we are at a place where, individually we have, or seem to have good players, but not a good team. That is the test for Pearson, or whoever, and that has to be addressed soon.

[Phileas Fogg]

15 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The Garita "punt" is a perfect example of how the Club was being run then. Not like we had a small squad, but £50,000 on a player they expected to fail, plus wages, is a ridiculous attitude for a Club that was supposed to be looking for self sustainability. 

Garita was a Cotterill signing

 

[Clutton Caveman]

On 03/11/2021 at 16:33, 1960maaan said:

With Cotts, that team was pretty much done over a summer. That takes any worry about losing players out of the equation . 
As for "couldn't wait to break up the team" slight exaggeration I'd say. Building aa teal over time is difficult, if you find a gem ,how do you hold onto them. Kodjia , Villa called he wanted to go. You have little choice, other than to say no and have an unhappy player. For others, it's the managers right to move players out to get "his" players in. The problem came when we didn't manage to make a challenge, the likes of Reid & Bryan offered Prem football, again they want to go. Webster, proved too good too quickly so agin we couldn't keep him when offered Premiership football. 

Totally agree about wasting the money. The combination of Ashton , Johnson and Lansdown's open cheque book was an absolute car crash which culminated in having to offload 14 players that were OOC last summer. 

The only way I see us building a team is with the likes of Atkinson & Tanner. Look like decent players, not quite good enough for teams to want to nick them yet. Add a couple more each window, then some final quality in the summer before we storm the league, easy 

I think we will go nowhere until we get a real football man involved at the highest level. SL is a great benefactor but is not strong on selecting good people to work with. His son clearly has no interest and for me NP lacks the fire in his belly either due to illness or basically coming out of retirement and wishing he had not. For me it would be great if we appointed a Chairman who was very well connected and respected in football and could bring us some long overdue credibility. This is basically a part time roll and so would suit an elder statesman not quite ready to retire. 

[GrahamC]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

Garita was a Cotterill signing

 

Just about to post the same & pretty sure was him making a point about not being backed.

[Phileas Fogg]

Just now, Clutton Caveman said:

I think we will go nowhere until we get a real football man involved at the highest level. SL is a great benefactor but is not strong on selecting good people to work with. His son clearly has no interest and for me NP lacks the fire in his belly either due to illness or basically coming out of retirement and wishing he had not. For me it would be great if we appointed a Chairman who was very well connected and respected in football and could bring us some long overdue credibility. This is basically a part time roll and so would suit an elder statesman not quite ready to retire. 

Always feels a bit strange that we haven't sought out the assistance of Joe Jordan for a role like that.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Just about to post the same & pretty sure was him making a point about not being backed.

Conversely, I think if that £50,000 outlay was partially to help Kodjia settle in and take a chance on a young player who may or may not work out - considering the profit made on Kodjia, it was money well spent!

 

[bs3]

On 03/11/2021 at 11:03, Dredd said:

Assuming the outcome of ‘the project’ is to get City into the Premier League, just how much work needs to be done, money needs to be spent, to get us even challenging for the play offs. 

Looking at the current side we probably have the very bare bones of a team that could compete at the top end of the table in the next few years. Atkinson, HNM, Kalas, maybe Bentley/Semenyo, already look like players who could fit into a team in that position. The rest, nope, thanks, move into squad players as we recruit or move on.

Pring, Tanner, Scott are players in the first team who could develop into those kind of players, we don’t know yet. There seem to be a few other promising young uns but those are the ones currently in the team.

Therefore we need minimum 7 new players to get us competing. And that’s making a massive assumption that we are able to keep those players above and Kalas/Bentley keep at current levels as they get older so it’s probably more. We would probably need to sell someone for big bucks to even think about affording that sort of rebuild. 

I know Pearson has talked about this as a 3 year project, but I personally think that’s pie in the sky given the squad building required and the cost of this. Settle in for a few more years of mediocrity unless these academy lads turn out to be world beaters, because I don’t have faith in our recruitment. Feeling very pessimistic about City at the moment. I want it to work with NP but unless he is backed with significant funds or a top class recruitment team, of which we appear to have neither, then I fear the pressure for results will become too much and he won’t get the time/funds to see if he can see the project through. 
 

A project is something you set out to achieve. Bristol City football have no interest or ambition to achieve the goal of Premier League football. 
By claiming that Bristol City has a project to achieve Top flight football is frankly embarrassing it’s the equivalent of suggesting that Bristol Rovers has a project to play in the EPL , if the gas did claim to have such a project we would laugh at them and by saying we have a project the rest of the football world are laughing at us.

There is no project , the club gets giddy with the dizzy heights of the Championship , I suspect that those who runs the club would be happy to see us back in League One because the way the club has been run in the last few years I can only assume that is their aim.

[Bat Fastard]

One feature of player development has often surprised me is the improvement that young players can make during the time when the season ends until the next one starts.  We have a good number of exceptional young players who, if they improve by next season and the season after that, could be top Championship players and a good foundation for building a promotion worthy side.  With a few thoughtful additions, we might surprise a lot of people.  Of course, we have to avoid relegation this season - and that may need some heroic recruitment in January. Key to our progress may be recruiting players who will end up being part of the long term squad and not just stop-gaps.

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think we will go nowhere until we get a real football man involved at the highest level. SL is a great benefactor but is not strong on selecting good people to work with. His son clearly has no interest and for me NP lacks the fire in his belly either due to illness or basically coming out of retirement and wishing he had not. For me it would be great if we appointed a Chairman who was very well connected and respected in football and could bring us some long overdue credibility. This is basically a part time roll and so would suit an elder statesman not quite ready to retire. 

Totally agree, how you do that is another thing. 
If you are pumping that much of your own money into something, it's only normal to want people you trust. Not having too many links inside football would limit that. Maybe the wasted time with Ashton & Johnson may have given Lansdown a different perspective, though Pearson isn't living up to what any of us hoped for, at least on the pitch. 
Gould looks like being a good fit, we need more in the top roles to really make a difference .

[GrahamC]

20 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Conversely, I think if that £50,000 outlay was partially to help Kodjia settle in and take a chance on a young player who may or may not work out - considering the profit made on Kodjia, it was money well spent!

 

This has been said before but Garita didn’t arrive until January, by which time Kodjia had already been with us for 6 months, so I’m not so sure.

I have certainly heard a few stories about how poorly we dealt with Kodjia settling in to Bristol (including him getting lost on his way to the ground for the first home game, FFS) so it could have been a belated attempt to try to improve matters, but if so it was very late.

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Conversely, I think if that £50,000 outlay was partially to help Kodjia settle in and take a chance on a young player who may or may not work out - considering the profit made on Kodjia, it was money well spent!

 

Correct….the days when a punt was £50k, not a £1m.  Had been on Arsenal’s radar too in the past.

Was on the bench v Man Utd too.

[Redrascal2]

 The club has lurched from one crisis to another in the last couple of years with results and performance constantly heading downwards. There cannot be a coordinated and coherent plan/project being undertaken. I cannot see how this club is doing anything else but fire fighting at the moment.  Desperate for stability and some consistency. When and if we achieve that then would be the time to have some sort of realistic plan to move the club forward. When we reach that point I have no idea and whether it is possible under Lansdown I have considerable doubts.

[headhunter]

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think we will go nowhere until we get a real football man involved at the highest level. SL is a great benefactor but is not strong on selecting good people to work with. His son clearly has no interest and for me NP lacks the fire in his belly either due to illness or basically coming out of retirement and wishing he had not. For me it would be great if we appointed a Chairman who was very well connected and respected in football and could bring us some long overdue credibility. This is basically a part time roll and so would suit an elder statesman not quite ready to retire. 

How many clubs, even in the PL have what you term "a real football man involved at the highest level"?   There is a guy in Bristol that could play an over arching role at the club on a part-time basis and that is Richard Scudamore. Richard Gould is an exemplary administrator without the football wannabe traits of Mark Ashton. With neither he nor Pearson wanting to deal with the characters who dominate the shady world of agents I fear for City's recruitment going forward until we get an experienced head in that position.

[Pezo]

15 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

 The club has lurched from one crisis to another in the last couple of years with results and performance constantly heading downwards. There cannot be a coordinated and coherent plan/project being undertaken. I cannot see how this club is doing anything else but fire fighting at the moment.  Desperate for stability and some consistency. When and if we achieve that then would be the time to have some sort of realistic plan to move the club forward. When we reach that point I have no idea and whether it is possible under Lansdown I have considerable doubts.

Yes it does feel that the only plan in the last 3 years was just to get promoted by whatever means necessary, we believed that we were only 1 or 2 signings away so strategy went out the window and tactical signings were made just to try and get us that one step closer.

combine this with the players that got us close being sold then you soon realise we we were taking 2 steps backwards and 1/2 a step forward in terms of quality and 2 steps forward and 1 back in terms of quantity for about 3 seasons - we've now gone so far backwards there is a strong chance of relegation.

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, headhunter said:

How many clubs, even in the PL have what you term "a real football man involved at the highest level"?   There is a guy in Bristol that could play an over arching role at the club on a part-time basis and that is Richard Scudamore. Richard Gould is an exemplary administrator without the football wannabe traits of Mark Ashton. With neither he nor Pearson wanting to deal with the characters who dominate the shady world of agents I fear for City's recruitment going forward until we get an experienced head in that position.

I’ve just been on a Discord Group with Jay Socik / Blades Analytics, who is head of recruitment analysis at Luton.  Although Phil Chapple (ex-player Norwich, Cambridge etc) is head of scouting, they have another fella performing multiple roles, including both Chief Recruitment and Assistant Manager.

That person is Mick Harford.  A more “real football man” you couldn’t hope to find.

I just told Jay, Mick was my first favourite player and to let Mick know….to which he replied, “I will, I’m sat next to him now”.

So Luton have a real football man.

FWIW I’d say Scudamore is a football business man, not a real football man.  I thought you were gonna name Joe Jordan.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’ve just been on a Discord Group with Jay Socik / Blades Analytics, who is head of recruitment analysis at Luton.  Although Phil Chapple (ex-player Norwich, Cambridge etc) is head of scouting, they have another fella performing multiple roles, including both Chief Recruitment and Assistant Manager.

That person is Mick Harford.  A more “real football man” you couldn’t hope to find.

I just told Jay, Mick was my first favourite player and to let Mick know….to which he replied, “I will, I’m sat next to him now”.

So Luton have a real football man.

FWIW I’d say Scudamore is a football business man, not a real football man.  I thought you were gonna name Joe Jordan.

Can never understand why Joe has never been brought in , in some capacity (if he wanted to ) I think he’d be perfect to work alongside RG as a DOF 

[Hampshire reds]

as it stands today this is a massive project. we need a Director of football. The manager situation is up in the air. To many rumours about nigel. is he coming back is he not. Get well soon nigel. 

[Bat Fastard]

14 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

as it stands today this is a massive project. we need a Director of football. The manager situation is up in the air. To many rumours about nigel. is he coming back is he not. Get well soon nigel. 

It may be a while before Nigel is fully back up and running. Having recently recovered from a nasty dose of COVID I can relate to the fact that there are still days when fatigue is a huge issue followed by better spells. He must be given the time he needs. W would expect that he is still on the phone to all in the club about transfers and the like.  As we are cash strapped, the last thing we need to do is overload the payroll with more expensive people in suits. Be patient.

[Red DNA]

So many people start demanding new coaches and players but somehow have managed to forget the elephant in the room - FFP!

To turn the club around to anywhere near where we’d like to be takes not just money but time - and yes we have waited ages but the reality is it can’t be done by chucking loads of money at it in one go or it’ll be a points deduction like what’s been applied to other clubs which have tried that approach - and lost in every department. 

[AG City]

In my working life, I put people into two camps - doers, and people who talk a good game.

City fall into the latter.

For all of the media spin, projects, fancy buzzwords (HPC etc), pillars, fashion shows of kits, social media gifs etc - its all hot air and doesn't equate in anyway to the clubs performance on the pitch.  I think deep down the club is too nice and cosy, which moving into the Premier League with more focus, exposure and dare I say scrutiny would be too uncomfortable to many within the club.

We have had two real opportunities to get there, 10 years apart.

Under Gary Johnson, I think we were 2nd in the league around Xmas and other clubs used that transfer window to strengthen with quality - I think Stoke brought in 3 players and went up automatically. I think we baulked at this, and brought in Adebola and Nick Carle and spluttered our way into the play offs as I don't think as a club we wanted it badly enough.

Same thing in 2017/18.  Our stock was probably at its highest post the Man Utd and Man City games, and I have no doubt that the likes of Reid and Bryan were looking at that transfer window to see if we as a club were actually serious about getting into the Premier League .  So what did we do, same as 10 years previous - baulked at it again and went to France and brought in an unknown in Diony, Ryan Kent, and a kid from Evertons reserves.

As I said, we talk a good game, but never actually deliver.

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

as it stands today this is a massive project. we need a Director of football. The manager situation is up in the air. To many rumours about nigel. is he coming back is he not. Get well soon nigel. 

Yep, been saying it for years.  The role itself can be whatever it needs to be, but we need a true football person, with business acumen to:

1) be able to deal with board and football manager comfortably

2) be the glue for 

a) consistent manager recruitment in future that fits

b) a playing style and therefore

c) player recruitment strategy

I don’t think that’s rocket-science.  It is not a role Richard Gould can undertake, and the early signs is he’s not trying to either….which I think is good, i.e. “know your own role”.  It is something Mark Ashton tried to do, for whatever reasons (they’ve been discussed to death).

It is what Keith Burt did.  It is why Keith Dawe (and Jon L) brought Keith Burt into the club with SOD, because he and Jon were doing “football stuff” they weren’t skilled enough to deal with.

It co-incited with some of the best recruitment we’ve ever seen….and laid the foundation for great progress by the club.  That’s all been eroded.  Short-sightedness / Control / Ego from MA to think he could do that role.

 

[bcfcredandwhite]

How big is the project?

It always seems HUGE where BS3 is concerned. For years and years we have seen our quest for premiership football described as a 'project' yet we have failed to taste the top flight for 40 years. 

It shouldn't be any harder for us than any other championship side (with the exception of the newly-relegated sides with their parachute money). Why should it be any harder for us than, say, Brentford, Swansea or Cardiff - all of whom have tasted the Premiership recently whilst we have still been huffing and puffing?

The answer is of course that it's NOT harder. We are just masters of underachievement whereas those clubs invested their funds more wisely. It sometimes feels as if there is a curse on our club holding us back. We have what fans of many other clubs would LOVE to have; a £billionaire owner, shiny new premiership-ready stadium and facilities, Brand new training setup, HUGE catchment area, attractive vibrant location to tempt players to live locally - it's all there - just not on the pitch. 

SL needs to take a look at the setups that are employed at other clubs which have actually ACHIEVED the dream and apply them at Ashton Gate. The principle of football success is stupidly simple; you score more goals than the opposition. I can understand that in an environment where 24 teams are all fighting for just 3 places it isn't a 'given' that we would crack it, but I think it's incredible that despite SLs £millions that he has invested over however many years he's owned our club, we still haven't managed to achieve that elusive target. SL has been in charge since 2002 - nearly 20 years, and in that time all we've managed to achieve are a few Mickey Mouse cups and a couple of promotions from Div 3 to Div 2 (and relegations the other way too!!).

This can't simply be blamed on LJ or Ashton - it goes back far further than their presence and has now outlived their tenancies at BS3. The buck has to stop with Steve Lansdown and how he has set up the club for failure.  

I am NOT calling for SL to go - of course not. I really appreciate the fact that he has invested so much of his money with us. All I'm asking for is that he re-evaluates the setup, looks at some other similar sized clubs which have achieved premiership football, analyse their successes (their management and their scouting setups in particular) and try and apply them to our club. I really thought he was doing just this when we appointed Nigel Pearson, but things have just stumbled and hiccupped along worse than under LJ - summer recruitment was poor, with us releasing first-team players like Diedhiou and Paterson* but not replacing them (no change there then) and now, with Nige off sick we, find ourselves fighting relegation without our manager in the dugout, with the 'leftovers' of the previous regime. 

* Just to be clear; I am not saying we shouldn't have let them go - their contracts were up - I'm saying that they should have been REPLACED. 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by bcfcredandwhite
correct grammar

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

This can't simply be blamed on LJ or Ashton

Absolutely not….but I think it’s fair to say they contributed to the current position we are in.

Good post btw.

[ray savino]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

"a real football man involved at the highest level"?

I know I’ve referred to him in the past, but the Stuart Webber bloke at Norwich seemed pivotal in the building of success at Huddersfield and Norwich. Someone on here referred to the podcast (link below).

https://play.acast.com/s/the-high-performance-podcast/stuartwebber-thevitalimportanceofpatience-preparationandplanning

If you get a chance, very interesting and I feel seems very relevent to our type of club in comparison to those clubs he has taken a role at. The fear is that these type of positions can seem to attract the Mark Ashton type of bullshit, but equally if you do your background research and get a goodun in the club can be transformed for the better. It’s interesting that he managed to build a good and trusting working relationship with Delia and her husband despite his straight talking approach. My worry is whether SL can find the right advice to get the right football man in. Perhaps he should look to include the knowledge and networks of City fans and associates like Scudamore and Jordan to get some suitable names or contacts. Who knows, maybe SL has always been doing this anyway.

Whatever the role entails in detail, it should be overall someone responsible for constructing, developing, agreeing with the rest of the board, the football direction/philosophy of the club. Once decided the whole recruitment philosophy for managers, coaches, staff and players should then be implemented to fit. Richard Gould looks over the entire operation of the football club, to see that commercial, budgets, performance are all on track. Unlike Ashton who appeared to be at the centre of everything.

I think Nige has been doing a bit of this but I think that for continuity you need someone full time at board level. In fairness we seem to have made attempts at a plan at different times, but it seems to go only so far and chops and changes. After Ashton and several managers/directions, SL must feel very cautious about appointing anymore board members, understandably. But then a lot of this seems to have been of his own making.

Come on SL, be bold, get a smart streetwise football person in the boardroom!

[Davefevs]

@ray savino yes, I’ve listened to that previously.  He’s an interesting character.  Bucks the trend of has to be a real football person (ex-player) too.  But I agree with you, I think Nige has been trying to do part of that role too,

Edited November 12, 2021 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, AG City said:

In my working life, I put people into two camps - doers, and people who talk a good game.

City fall into the latter.

For all of the media spin, projects, fancy buzzwords (HPC etc), pillars, fashion shows of kits, social media gifs etc - its all hot air and doesn't equate in anyway to the clubs performance on the pitch.  I think deep down the club is too nice and cosy, which moving into the Premier League with more focus, exposure and dare I say scrutiny would be too uncomfortable to many within the club.

We have had two real opportunities to get there, 10 years apart.

Under Gary Johnson, I think we were 2nd in the league around Xmas and other clubs used that transfer window to strengthen with quality - I think Stoke brought in 3 players and went up automatically. I think we baulked at this, and brought in Adebola and Nick Carle and spluttered our way into the play offs as I don't think as a club we wanted it badly enough.

Same thing in 2017/18.  Our stock was probably at its highest post the Man Utd and Man City games, and I have no doubt that the likes of Reid and Bryan were looking at that transfer window to see if we as a club were actually serious about getting into the Premier League .  So what did we do, same as 10 years previous - baulked at it again and went to France and brought in an unknown in Diony, Ryan Kent, and a kid from Evertons reserves.

As I said, we talk a good game, but never actually deliver.

Totally agree on 2007/08 then was a time to go for it.

January 2018, we were not altogether far off FFP limits so we had to be more cautious, perhaps creative in how we went about it.

Here is one more. Jan 2019, a couple more good loans and might that have taken us into the top 6? The FFP position was notably improved by then so we had the space. Korey had a long term injury, Hegeler had eventually left, Morrell was just coming through and did Walsh have his fitness issues?

We were 1 light in CM and one striker light IMO!

[Mr Popodopolous]

On the size and timespan of the project.

Warburton and O'Neil at QPR and Stoke both started slowly and with some difficulties. Huddersfield had a rather difficult 2019/20 and then under Corberan 

Parachute payments for QPR from 2015/16 to 2018/19, Stoke 2018/19-2020/21 and Huddersfield from last season via last season to this one 2021/22. 

That helps a lot, especially in the case of the last two but it shows that results aren't necessarily instant and nor should they be expected as such.

Stoke of course did some questionable practices, see £30m "Covid Impairment". Hopefully they have not heard the end of it.

[Major Isewater]

On 03/11/2021 at 18:24, 054123 said:

It’s almost as if the club enjoy Div 2

We rarely ‘ enjoy’ Div 2 . 
We don’t ‘ enjoy’ Div 3 or 4 either because we are always considered big fish in that pond and if we beat the likes of Gillingham, Colchester or Northampton it’s expected because we are a much bigger club and when we lose, which we often did, it was totally embarrassing.

 We rarely enjoyed Div 1 either , come to think of it, once the thrill of the occasional win and being beaten regularly by the big boys wore off .

In fact I’m not sure why we even bother. 

[cityloyal473]

22 hours ago, AG City said:

In my working life, I put people into two camps - doers, and people who talk a good game.

City fall into the latter.

For all of the media spin, projects, fancy buzzwords (HPC etc), pillars, fashion shows of kits, social media gifs etc - its all hot air and doesn't equate in anyway to the clubs performance on the pitch.  I think deep down the club is too nice and cosy, which moving into the Premier League with more focus, exposure and dare I say scrutiny would be too uncomfortable to many within the club.

We have had two real opportunities to get there, 10 years apart.

Under Gary Johnson, I think we were 2nd in the league around Xmas and other clubs used that transfer window to strengthen with quality - I think Stoke brought in 3 players and went up automatically. I think we baulked at this, and brought in Adebola and Nick Carle and spluttered our way into the play offs as I don't think as a club we wanted it badly enough.

As I said, we talk a good game, but never actually deliver.

Boom. We should have gone straight up that year and bottled it. 

[Major Isewater]

7 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Boom. We should have gone straight up that year and bottled it. 

Bottled it in the Prem?