Bristol Clean Air Zone

[weepywall]

8 hours ago, myol'man said:

So does that mean that my council tax is being used to buy Bob the builder, Pete the plumber and Wally the window cleaner a new electric van each?

When can we vote Marvelous out of office?

Money towards grants comes from central government not local authorities as far as I know, I'm currently applying for a grant from BANES but I think they have run out of money at the moment.

[myol'man]

2 hours ago, weepywall said:

Money towards grants comes from central government not local authorities as far as I know, I'm currently applying for a grant from BANES but I think they have run out of money at the moment.

Are you Weepywall the window cleaner?

All local authorities have run out of money, good luck with your free van  

[weepywall]

2 minutes ago, myol'man said:

Are you Weepywall the window cleaner?

All local authorities have run out of money, good luck with your free van  

No Weepywall the plumberhardly a free van, you can get a grant of up to £4.5k, the equivalent of the van I drive now would cost about £15k minimum to be compliant but if I can get the grant I would be foolish not to take it and the money is not from the local authority it is from the government.

[Laner]

10 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

This is the worst bit, those of us in South Bristol won’t even be able to drive to work the other side of town or Avonmouth by using Winterstoke Road, Rownhan hill and Portbury/M5.  As well as catching lots of the football traffic.
 

 

As they've found out in Bath, these zones can just create more traffic and pollution in the outlying areas. In your case you could drive down Ashton Drive to get on the ring road spur and them come back in along the Long Ashton bypass. Not ideal and a longer journey.

Sadly people with no other viable options will have to find these different routes. 

And that's the key point in Bristol, we've not got any real cost-effective "other viable options".

 

[Red-Robbo]

13 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

Perhaps, but there is such a tax revenue generated on fuel, one wonders how and what will replace it.

In practical terms I agree. I can't see how EVs can be the solution. Not all vehicle owners have their own drive or even a space outside their home.

When you consider how many petrol stations there are, and the frequency of custom and speed of refueling I cannot see how EVs can be fuelled up at anything like the same scale and have such easy access to charging, as we presently have for refueling.

 

 I think the idea is that there are charge points in roads, on places like lamp posts and street signs etc, but I agree with those who say that they just can't imagine this massive infrastructure project getting done by 2030.

Re: the tax thing. I guess you increase fuel taxes and car tax on ICE vehicles until they become unviable. Again, unless we see significant falls in the affordability of electric vehicles, I just can't see this being a policy any government would dare to implement.

Changes to the availability, reliability and cost of public transport are much more achievable and should be prioritised IMO.

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, myol'man said:

So does that mean that my council tax is being used to buy Bob the builder, Pete the plumber and Wally the window cleaner a new electric van each?

When can we vote Marvelous out of office?

 I believe the cash incentives to switch are provided by a grant from central government.

[Red-Robbo]

44 minutes ago, Laner said:

As they've found out in Bath, these zones can just create more traffic and pollution in the outlying areas. In your case you could drive down Ashton Drive to get on the ring road spur and them come back in along the Long Ashton bypass. Not ideal and a longer journey.

Sadly people with no other viable options will have to find these different routes. 

And that's the key point in Bristol, we've not got any real cost-effective "other viable options".

 

 

Traffic flow is like water isn't it. Block one route and it'll just find a way around it.

You see this with "traffic calming" measures, congestion charging and CAZs.  They may persuade a few people onto public transport, but there are sound reasons why many journeys cannot be made this way, so instead traffic is displaced onto smaller roads often in ways the schemes' designers do not foresee.

Better public transport (to offer more options) and ultimately, better town planning, creating fast link roads outside of densely populated areas and bringing employment centres within an easy walk or cycle of residential areas, are the only long-term solutions to congestion.

 

[Maesknoll Red]

6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Traffic flow is like water isn't it. Block one route and it'll just find a way around it.

You see this with "traffic calming" measures, congestion charging and CAZs.  They may persuade a few people onto public transport, but there are sound reasons why many journeys cannot be made this way, so instead traffic is displaced onto smaller roads often in ways the schemes' designers do not foresee.

Better public transport (to offer more options) and ultimately, better town planning, creating fast link roads outside of densely populated areas and bringing employment centres within an easy walk or cycle of residential areas, are the only long-term solutions to congestion.

 

I looked at the possibility of me catching the bus to work, it would be I estimate (without any major issues) a 3.5 hour journey from my house to office and the same back, currently a 35 minute drive (or an hour in rush hour), who is going to spend 7 hours travelling 12 miles to work and 12 miles back.  I honestly would struggle to travel that long on public transport that doesn’t have toilets.

[redsquirrel]

a question i raised today at work was what will happen to new drivers?  thing is,if new drivers pass their tests in electric cars,they wont be able to drive a manual petrol or diesel so would have to find cheaper electric first cars,cant see that happening for many years to come

[Red-Robbo]

21 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I looked at the possibility of me catching the bus to work, it would be I estimate (without any major issues) a 3.5 hour journey from my house to office and the same back, currently a 35 minute drive (or an hour in rush hour), who is going to spend 7 hours travelling 12 miles to work and 12 miles back.  I honestly would struggle to travel that long on public transport that doesn’t have toilets.

 Yep, totally impossible for lots of people.

When I worked in London, I'd take the tube in Mon-Thurs, but needed to drive in on Friday as that's when I drove back to Somerset. No feasible way for me to get back to my house without it.

Housing costs, the expense of moving, and lots of other factors make it difficult for people to move nearer their jobs as well.  

[1960maaan]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:22, Red-Robbo said:

 

Traffic flow is like water isn't it. Block one route and it'll just find a way around it.

You see this with "traffic calming" measures, congestion charging and CAZs.  They may persuade a few people onto public transport, but there are sound reasons why many journeys cannot be made this way, so instead traffic is displaced onto smaller roads often in ways the schemes' designers do not foresee.

Better public transport (to offer more options) and ultimately, better town planning, creating fast link roads outside of densely populated areas and bringing employment centres within an easy walk or cycle of residential areas, are the only long-term solutions to congestion.

 

Tying to force people onto public transport won't work IMO, you need to tempt people to want to use it.  Make it easy , comfortable and reliable and you will get more, than trying to force them onto it. The virtual Monopoly of First Bus (or whatever it's called) doesn't help.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

Tying to force people onto public transport won't work IMO, you need to tempt people to want to use it.  Make it easy , comfortable and reliable and you will get more, than trying to force them onto it. The virtual Monopoly of First Bus (or whatever it's called) doesn't help.

 I couldn't agree more.

This season, I've started taking the bus for Saturday games.  I'm away for home for longer, but I make a day of it. Meet friends, have a few pints etc.

A day pass at £7 offers me good VFM given I'm saving petrol and the headache of parking.

BUT why can't First Bus manage to let people know if there is a change to timetables? The one posted on their website is months old, the new one is glued to the local bus shelter, but they have no way of letting you know if they cancel a service - which happens frequently. The drivers at the station don't even think to come and tell the waiting lines of passengers what is happening.

It's my only gripe, but it's important.  Why don't Somerset bus stops have those "bus expected" boards linked to the bus's GPS, that you see in Bristol?  Why can't First Bus maintain an up-to-date website and have latest service data on there? The same company does for its trains.

Passengers are treated as incidental to the good running of the service.

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's my only gripe, but it's important.  Why don't Somerset bus stops have those "bus expected" boards linked to the bus's GPS

Yeah , those things.
 I allow about an hour 20 to get from the "Ponds" to the Centre, then the walk to the Masonic (usually) . Last 2 home games, I get to the Bus stop to see 8 minutes to wait, then ..... 8-7-6-6-6-8-9-8- delayed- then disappears.  I have a choice of 2 main Busses to the centre (I've already given up on the connecting Bus to North street and prefer to walk), there are supposed to be others to the Bus station but not seen many yet. 
Because they are the only operators they don't have to be reliable , the punter has no choice . 

 

[Maesknoll Red]

4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 I couldn't agree more.

This season, I've started taking the bus for Saturday games.  I'm away for home for longer, but I make a day of it. Meet friends, have a few pints etc.

A day pass at £7 offers me good VFM given I'm saving petrol and the headache of parking.

BUT why can't First Bus manage to let people know if there is a change to timetables? The one posted on their website is months old, the new one is glued to the local bus shelter, but they have no way of letting you know if they cancel a service - which happens frequently. The drivers at the station don't even think to come and tell the waiting lines of passengers what is happening.

It's my only gripe, but it's important.  Why don't Somerset bus stops have those "bus expected" boards linked to the bus's GPS, that you see in Bristol?  Why can't First Bus maintain an up-to-date website and have latest service data on there? The same company does for its trains.

Passengers are treated as incidental to the good running of the service.

The train franchises come with lots and lots of conditions they must meet, I don’t know anything about the bus side of the business , but I assume there isn’t the same contractual implications for the bus operation.

[Red-Robbo]

14 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

The train franchises come with lots and lots of conditions they must meet, I don’t know anything about the bus side of the business , but I assume there isn’t the same contractual implications for the bus operation.

I think you're right, MR. When bus services were privatised the only clauses were that they continued to run certain named routes: reliability, passenger access, fare and timetable information, all were not specified.

There's likely a class-based unconscious prejudice thing going on as well: trains are used by MPs and other important people whose complaints will matter to First Group, whereas buses are seen as the transport choice of the poor, elderly and young. 

[Bristol Rob]

20 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Yeah , those things.
 I allow about an hour 20 to get from the "Ponds" to the Centre, then the walk to the Masonic (usually) . Last 2 home games, I get to the Bus stop to see 8 minutes to wait, then ..... 8-7-6-6-6-8-9-8- delayed- then disappears.  I have a choice of 2 main Busses to the centre (I've already given up on the connecting Bus to North street and prefer to walk), there are supposed to be others to the Bus station but not seen many yet. 
Because they are the only operators they don't have to be reliable , the punter has no choice . 

 

This is why I have stopped getting the bus to football and get a cab instead.

Happy to get the bus home as if it takes ages then I can live with that as I am in less of a rush, but getting there I want to have a fairly good idea of the time I'll arrive.

Would be great if the club could work with First to put on some shuttle busses pre match that were reliable and covered a wide-ish range of areas.

[1960maaan]

8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

This is why I have stopped getting the bus to football and get a cab instead.

Happy to get the bus home as if it takes ages then I can live with that as I am in less of a rush, but getting there I want to have a fairly good idea of the time I'll arrive.

Would be great if the club could work with First to put on some shuttle busses pre match that were reliable and covered a wide-ish range of areas.

There should be banks of Busses ready to go at full time, there should be regular options from the centre to the Gate or North street, and then back from the Gate to cover all parts. They should open Ashton Gate station, all those things would help traffic massively . The Council isn't fit for purpose, they could step in and organise things but them seem intent on slowing traffic more and more, then punishing people for being in it. 

[Waconda]

The idea that the new electric vehicles are going to be cheaper to run is fantasy.

Our neo-liberal free market economy will not allow it.

The best option is for real "free" and regular public transport but never going to get that with the current government.

Perth Australia last time I was there was fantastic for this.

[TheReds]

On 11/11/2021 at 18:36, And Its Smith said:

Untrue.  I’ve had an electric car for over a year and my head office is 185 miles away. No issues.  I think I’ve told you this before in another thread but you seem to still think electric cars are for tiny journeys only for some reason 

Do all electric cars go this far and beyond without recharging? Some I have seen I'm sure are 30-70 miles. Charging times on some are just not feasible either (that's if you can find a charging point) 

I heard on a podcast a couple of weeks ago that one person went from London to Glasgow and it took over 15 hours. He stopped in service stations to recharge where they only had 2 chargers available as the others were broken. He said his car was 1 hour to charge up, but with cars already charging or waiting in front you can be looking at being in a service station for hours at a time. Just sounded horrendous. Yes things should get better, but the infrastructure just isn't anywhere near there. 

[And Its Smith]

Just now, TheReds said:

Do all electric cars go this far and beyond without recharging? Some I have seen I'm sure are 30-70 miles. Charging times on some are just not feasible either (that's if you can find a charging point) 

I heard on a podcast a couple of weeks ago that one person went from London to Glasgow and it took over 15 hours. He stopped in service stations to recharge where they only had 2 chargers available as the others were broken. He said his car was 1 hour to charge up, but with cars already charging or waiting in front you can be looking at being in a service station for hours at a time. Just sounded horrendous. Yes things should get better, but the infrastructure just isn't anywhere near there. 

I can only comment on the Tesla which is great. I can get about 190 miles in one charge but even if I had to drive 380 miles it would only take 45 minutes longer than if I had a petrol car and didn’t stop. Realistically you are going to want to stop anyway. 

If I have to detour on my 185 mile journey and it becomes say 210 miles then I would just have to stop for a 5-10 min charge 

Charge at home from 0% to 100% = 6 hours

Full Charge on Tesla supercharger = 45 mins

I’m driving from Bristol to Aberdeen in December and I don’t foresee any issues.  The only area that is tricky is Cornwall but that is improving early next year 

[Baba Yaga]

On 14/11/2021 at 13:21, VT05763 said:

The idea that the new electric vehicles are going to be cheaper to run is fantasy.

Our neo-liberal free market economy will not allow it.

The best option is for real "free" and regular public transport but never going to get that with the current government.

Perth Australia last time I was there was fantastic for this.

I wonder if more electric cars will really mean more demand in general and therefore higher household electricity costs for everyone. One big problem with ending fossil fuels is a less diverse energy network, and I can't see the transition not being painfully costly for many.

I am quite fortunate to live close to a bus route that is convenient for Ashton Gate, even though I am pretty pro car in general I got the bus to one game and it worked very well and will probably do the same on Saturday too.

[Red-Robbo]

37 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I can only comment on the Tesla which is great. I can get about 190 miles in one charge but even if I had to drive 380 miles it would only take 45 minutes longer than if I had a petrol car and didn’t stop. Realistically you are going to want to stop anyway. 

If I have to detour on my 185 mile journey and it becomes say 210 miles then I would just have to stop for a 5-10 min charge 

Charge at home from 0% to 100% = 6 hours

Full Charge on Tesla supercharger = 45 mins

I’m driving from Bristol to Aberdeen in December and I don’t foresee any issues.  The only area that is tricky is Cornwall but that is improving early next year 

 

Aren't you not recommended to charge them to 100%, AIS?

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Aren't you not recommended to charge them to 100%, AIS?

The last 20% costs about as much as the previous 80% so generally I limit it to 80% charge. On my long trips up north, which is once a month,  I charge it to 100%.  I think it’s okay to charge fully on the odd occasion 

[Maesknoll Red]

I’ve just had a look at the Tesla site, £43K for the most basic model, with absolutely no extras, the nicer looking ones ( and with the distances you mention) closer to or over £100K - pie in the sky for ordinary folk like me.

[2015]

On 06/11/2021 at 01:13, tts_city said:

Great isnt it, poorer people with older cars get taxed and its a Labour council.

Shocking from the so called 'socialists'. Only those who can afford newer cars or electric cars can basically drive in City centres.

Thats fine we will take our business to places that will accept all cars.

[2015]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:16, BTRFTG said:

I can assure you from a sample of those who sit around me at AG, none of whom live in or near Bristol, it isn't just me. 

Bristol's transport planning and infrastructure is woeful.

Parking - forget it. Park and rides at Long Ashton, Brislington, Pucklechurch and the far end of The Portway. Right at the heart of the action. (Can folks park at LA on a Saturday for the footy now?) Most close at 10pm so if I wanted to take in a movie, or theatre, or dinner I'd have to leave the city centre by 9pm. Yeah, that works.

Public transport - quicker to walk to either TM or Coach Station than use the bus, assuming you are able so to do, but as ever with Rees it's sod the infirm or oldies.

Visually impaired or restricted mobility visitors - don't bother as you'll be tripping over or having to avoid randomly dumped scooters all over the shop.

Bristol should be welcoming. It isn't.

 

Pretty much how I feel. It's got worse and worse.

Trains are expensive, parking is non existent, now a clean air zone where you cant drive in certain areas without a charge. It takes about 40 mins to get to Bristol sometimes and about 1 hour sometimes to get through traffic and find a car parking space within a 20 minute walk to the ground. It's terrible for outsiders

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’ve just had a look at the Tesla site, £43K for the most basic model, with absolutely no extras, the nicer looking ones ( and with the distances you mention) closer to or over £100K - pie in the sky for ordinary folk like me.

Mine is the basic model. As I’ve said, no issues on distance at all.  No idea what extras the further models give other than about another 100 miles on the battery.  The basic model looks good and is a very nice drive. It certainly pulls away much faster than any car I’ve ever drive. Very smooth. No noise 

[Crackers Corner]

Whist im sure everyone wants clean air not everyone can afford to go green. Im fortunate to have an ev on order (id3) from my company but would never afford one otherwise.  This seems to be about punishing the poorest whist the wealthy wont care about the extra charge.

I can see petrol and diesals being taxed into oblivion unless you have money to burn long before the 2030 ban on non hybrid/ev cars.

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Crackers Corner said:

Whist im sure everyone wants clean air not everyone can afford to go green. Im fortunate to have an ev on order (id3) from my company but would never afford one otherwise.  This seems to be about punishing the poorest whist the wealthy wont care about the extra charge.

I can see petrol and diesals being taxed into oblivion unless you have money to burn long before the 2030 ban on non hybrid/ev cars.

 

You are exempt if you earn £26k pa or less, so it isn't the poorest it will hit but some middle-income motorists who have little choice but to regularly drive through the zone will undoubtedly feel the pinch?

Anyone know where the revenue from the charges is going?  I expect Serco or whoever is implementing the enforcement will take a huge bite, but is the rest kept by BCC or hoovered up by national government.

If the revenue went at improving the Bristol public transport network - more routes, more times etc - it would be something I suppose.

I'm still against these sort of schemes though. They just don't seem to work. 

[BTRFTG]

27 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

You are exempt if you earn £26k pa or less, so it isn't the poorest it will hit but some middle-income motorists who have little choice but to regularly drive through the zone will undoubtedly feel the pinch?

Anyone know where the revenue from the charges is going?  I expect Serco or whoever is implementing the enforcement will take a huge bite, but is the rest kept by BCC or hoovered up by national government.

If the revenue went at improving the Bristol public transport network - more routes, more times etc - it would be something I suppose.

I'm still against these sort of schemes though. They just don't seem to work. 

Love to know how they'll police all those exemptions...