Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

But there are plenty of people involved in the football world. Russell Martin was at MK Dons and someone took a chance of him. Barnsley didn't do too badly taking a punt on Valerien Ismael. Steve Cooper has helped revive Forest, wouldn't you know.

Good examples.

Some themes.

Martin went from a possession base team to a possession based team.

Ismael came from a gegenpress team to a high pressing Struber team and made them even higher pressing.  Early success at West Brom is fading though, not convinced the players want to keep haring around…last two times I’ve seen them they’ve been much more passive.

Cooper doing well, 1 defeat in 13, but 1 win 5 draws in last 6.  2 points above us.

[1960maaan]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t get too down when we lose.

With this kind of performance, I do.  The Bournemouth/Forest/WBA really got me down, and it's not the defeats as such , but the performances or lack of.

Poor decisions, hesitation on passes, over hit or under hit simple passes, it's game in game out. We are not learning and definitely not improving. We look worse than the team I moaned about under Johnson. Those games where a really poor pass could set the tone for a bad half, this team doesn't keep the ball even that well during our good games. 
I will give them that injuries have again caused problems, made worse with a small squad in transition. Wiliam's, King and James could have made a difference , but that doesn't excuse the lack of movement and poor ball retention. The suicidal passing at the back and the lack of urgency to get back, all things that should have improved with coaching you would think.  
I would question Pearsons decisions too. Not having a midfielder on the bench but 2 left backs ? Palmer is obviously out of favour, but that looks beyond stubborn . Also playing the same team week in week out when we are chasing the ball for three quarters of the game isn't sustainable IMO.

I don't see us having the financial fire power to sort things by signings in January.  I'm not sure the fix is as easy as adding 2 decent Championship players if we could afford them. NP brought in 2 footballing MFs, and for a short period it did look like we were improving but that quickly went.  At the moment we are relying on scoring the odd chance get and hoping the opposition strikers have an off day (like Vs Stoke), that is not a recipe for success.

I have typed and deleted several posts today, you can probably see why now, bloody depressing . For the next week I may stick to discussing music on Twitter 

Edited November 28, 2021 by 1960maaan

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

So at what point this season would it be reasonable to pull the plug?

Hypothetically - when we are mathematically relegated.

 

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

This is a really good post, Dave. 

What fascinates me is this. When we looked at the team sheet today, most of us who have some idea thought 'mmm, look at that midfield: Massengo and Bakinson and Benarous - that's trouble.' So rather than just going with, 'oh we won on Wednesday night, let's do something similar' (with Massengo in for the injured Williams) can we be more imaginative? Problem solve. Can we do something different with the resources we have? 

No. We don't do that We play that midfield and it gets completely overrun. And this is not hindsight. I was having this discussion before the match. But basically we just said...let's give it a go and see what happens. I'm not saying it's easy. But what happened was what we all thought was going to happen. And it did. 

[firstdivision]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hypothetically - when we are mathematically relegated.

 

Really, Dave? You only change once (if) we are down?  

[firstdivision]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good examples.

Some themes.

Martin went from a possession base team to a possession based team.

Ismael came from a gegenpress team to a high pressing Struber team and made them even higher pressing.  Early success at West Brom is fading though, not convinced the players want to keep haring around…last two times I’ve seen them they’ve been much more passive.

Cooper doing well, 1 defeat in 13, but 1 win 5 draws in last 6.  2 points above us.

And, I suppose, to continue that theme, we replaced a manager who played dull, safety-first football with a man who plays dull, safety-first football. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, firstdivision said:

This is a really good post, Dave. 

What fascinates me is this. When we looked at the team sheet today, most of us who have some idea thought 'mmm, look at that midfield: Massengo and Bakinson and Benarous - that's trouble.' So rather than just going with, 'oh we won on Wednesday night, let's do something similar' (with Massengo in for the injured Williams) can we be more imaginative? Problem solve. Can we do something different with the resources we have? 

No. We don't do that We play that midfield and it gets completely overrun. And this is not hindsight. I was having this discussion before the match. But basically we just said...let's give it a go and see what happens. I'm not saying it's easy. But what happened was what we all thought was going to happen. And it did. 

I posted somewhere else about this.  Do you change the system because Williams is out or go with the same knowing that the players are at least familiar with our new 352?

Rock and a hard place scenario.

Could he have dropped Weimann into midfield to add some experience.  Does he leave Massengo on the bench (who might be thinking he’s gonna start and be really disappointed)?  Does he bring Massengo in and leave Be around out?

Could he have brought Atkinson in and shunted Vyner to RWB?

etc etc

Lots of options.

In our world of OTIB there are no comebacks to our decisions, no player relationships to manage the next day, etc.

I would say we made so many mistakes today I don’t think it mattered who played and in what formation.

Its why I don’t worry myself with things like “what’s his best eleven” because it rarely becomes an option.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 06/11/2021 at 18:06, S_C said:

Agree, it was always going to be a hard season, but there’s a difference between a hard season and the shambolic last 30 minutes in midweek or conceding 3 goals vs 10 men in one half.

I’m not calling for his head but it is increasingly hard to value the notion of transition above the embarrassment and humiliation that is being served up. We’re not losing, losing is one thing, we’re disorganised, weak minded and turning in inexcusable performances for which, transition or not, there is no justification.

Believing that he is the man to turn things around is increasingly tumbling toward blind faith. I say that not as someone demanding he goes, more as someone questioning why a group of players with ability, and I accept that’s my opinion and not universally shared, cannot be a structured, disciplined unit on a week to week basis.

There were real signs of promise earlier in the season, we looked like we’d found a team from the shipwreck of individuals last season. That optimism has all but evaporated. We’re on a downward spiral and it needs addressing.

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Really, Dave? You only change once (if) we are down?  

If we were to go down I can only imagine it being a late in season thing, e.g. gradually getting sucked closer and closer to the bottom three.  So I’d give Nige every chance to pull clear.

(easy sat here 7 points clear in 18th)

[Redrascal2]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 06/11/2021 at 18:20, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

I honestly don't think his health is good and this pressure is doing him no good at all. I wouldn't be surprised if he left soon and although I not mad on Colin, I think he could save us this season. After all, he's done it with a few teams before.

Shite football but he would keep us up till end of season.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

I think there’s a difference between not giving their best, executing poorly and not being motivated for example.

Bad analogy coming up.  Do England cricket look as solid without Ben Stokes in the team?  You can bring in another all-rounder, but they aren’t Ben Stokes, they don’t make things happen with bat and / or ball.  If you take out one of your best players, you are weaker, whoever you bring in.  That’s means others have to step-up to fill the void.  I don’t think we have a lot who can step-up.

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

Feeding on scraps for the most part.

4 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

Williams, King and James would add some steady influence and control, something that was lacking today. I agree the rest should be better, and THAT is a concern after 9 months with Nige.

[RobintheRed Red]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

[RobintheRed Red]

1 minute ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

 

[firstdivision]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I posted somewhere else about this.  Do you change the system because Williams is out or go with the same knowing that the players are at least familiar with our new 352?

Rock and a hard place scenario.

Could he have dropped Weimann into midfield to add some experience.  Does he leave Massengo on the bench (who might be thinking he’s gonna start and be really disappointed)?  Does he bring Massengo in and leave Be around out?

Could he have brought Atkinson in and shunted Vyner to RWB?

etc etc

Lots of options.

In our world of OTIB there are no comebacks to our decisions, no player relationships to manage the next day, etc.

I would say we made so many mistakes today I don’t think it mattered who played and in what formation.

Its why I don’t worry myself with things like “what’s his best eleven” because it rarely becomes an option.

All valid points, of course. But he's always made a thing of 'I'm the manager; I do it my way'. And, if he's adept, he can sell a revised game plan to the players. My thought was possibly Weimann in midfield because he has the nous to adapt. As I said, it's not easy but I wonder if someone more tactically flexible would have seen that coming and tried to head it off. 

[red colin]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

[Mattredrobin]

Don't think sacking Pearson will help, the players are simply just not good enough, granted I didn't see today's game but I've been to all home games and a few away and we are awful, I looked at our squad about 3-4 weeks ago, and looked at who we could get rid of 5 of the players I felt we wouldn't miss haven't even been playing so that can't be down to them, we are mentally weak and lack the quality to move forward, Pearson I feel is as honest as he can be ( and whilst I dislike outing players) he's just telling the truth like it or lump it, he knows we lack anything near good enough and I believe given time to move those players on he will improve us, but he needs to do it get those players out ASAP because unlike last time we got relegated we really won't find it easy if we do go down. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Mattredrobin

[red colin]

4 minutes ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

Adding to my own post...I would never fault Weimanns effort or commitment but for me he just doesn't work for us agree he scores around 12 a season but say play semenyo or Wells every game in same position would they add more with pace etc .

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

So are you meaning today or over the season?  Today was not the game to call out any individuals, virtually the whole team was under par.  Over the season both have had good and poor games.  As an overall season evaluation I think they’ve done ok.

Service is poor.  That doesn’t help.

Fine if you don’t rate them.  They are far from dire imho, but it’s all about opinions.

13 minutes ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

That’s an option.  Ideally our front two wouldn’t be playing 90 mins every week.  Wells having looked sharp a month ago, looked out of touch, maybe through not playing?  Semenyo is back fit now.  We have some options.

[Taylor10]

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

Sheff U are in a very false position and have way more quality than us. I expect them to be top 6 come the season end if they get some rhythm now. We were poor today but I’ve seen far worse displays this season against much weaker opposition. Whilst we’ve seen a very brief up turn in form we still have square pegs in round holes at present. 

We lined up with the same system as them today. At least half of the Sheff U side that started the game were part of a very successful prem campaign under Wilder. Ok you could argue that they came down in the end but if you compare the starting line ups today man for man, given we played the same formation/system then the difference in class was pretty obvious. Plus every player they had was playing in their specialist position, whereas that wasn’t the case for us. For example Scott & COD have worked hard the last few games but they are both out of position and today were arguably against two of the best wing backs in the division.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

[big dosser]

makes i laugh on here, how the hell can people slate kp when he has not even crossed the white line.i would like to see kp get a good run of games like he did when benik was here.all fans like to blame players but a good solid coach should know how to get the best out of them, what makes them tick and get the passion and pride out of them. Like it or not we have no passion no pride, no commitment no structure no pace and worse of all we cant find a formation that can put us on the front foot. Are football is boring to watch and has been for a long time.im not sure what nige is like in a changing room but if its anything like his interviews im not surprised the players look half asleep and disinterested. I use his interviews to help me sleep/better than taking a sleeping tablet and natural

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think there’s a difference between not giving their best, executing poorly and not being motivated for example.

Bad analogy coming up.  Do England cricket look as solid without Ben Stokes in the team?  You can bring in another all-rounder, but they aren’t Ben Stokes, they don’t make things happen with bat and / or ball.  If you take out one of your best players, you are weaker, whoever you bring in.  That’s means others have to step-up to fill the void.  I don’t think we have a lot who can step-up.

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 hour ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

They’re awful because they don’t create their own chances? 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

[fairweather]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

Dave- he was the most amazing Introduction under Holden. Held the ball, protected it but mostly moved it forward. Like a deep lying playmaker. I was so excited that the youth, I had known less about than other on here, would be blended with the rest of the team. 

Now the youth development and loan system has been dismantled and the young players are just part of a squad.

dark days.
 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

48 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

If it were purely about just today then this thread wouldn't exist. The reaction is entirely understandable based on performances this season and the seven losses in the last 12 games. A number of fans are getting nervous about the potential of relegation whilst not really seeing a clear way to safety so again it's not about this one result.

For my part I only starting watching City ( age related!) in 1980/81 so I've spent most of my life watching  "3rd Division" football and every fibre in my body is dreading the possible return to that wretched and depressing league where the only joy is winning it. Lincoln, Morecombe, Accrington Stanley and the obligatory 8 matches with Gillingham- no thanks.

 

[Bar BS3]

12 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I think we look better . Impressive that we are playing so many young players and building their experience . In 3/4 years you will see the benefits . I don’t recall Holden or LJ playing such a young midfield . You have to live through that development .  You can see a clear change since the coaching changed . There are still poor decisions and lack of confidence . But that is another issue . As is the inability to keep the ball . But that needs different prayers . 
 

so with the current squad what is your team ? So it’s not dross . Where are the players ? Who are you playing ?  It’s easy to say it’s rubbish , but far harder to come up with tangible real solutions within the constraints we have .

Time to be strong and bold . We are in transition but we will be far stronger as a squad and team if we stick with it . There are great signs within the frustration . 
 

seems to me some need a relegation for some to wake up to the reality of the car crash that was created by Ashton and LJ ( and Lansdown ) 

So you think that NP is doing a reasonable job in getting the best out of the recourses that he has at his disposal..? 

You think we look organised & have a game plan...? 

Not being good enough is one think - looking like a clueless shambles, more often than not, is another. 

[SecretSam]

On 06/11/2021 at 17:10, old_eastender said:

I really do wonder whether we can trust NP to turn this around. Mark Robins was once in the running for us, oh to see the style of pass and move football that Coventry produced with only 10 men.

And this possible appointment was derided by many on here as being unambitious and dull. 

Personally, I don't see the value in dumping Pearson now. Where are the better options out there?